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Trabisnikof posted:
thank you
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Sep 25, 2017 22:42
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Rastor posted:Like I get politics is important so it's not fair to say "don't take things personally" but overreactive sniping back and forth doesn't do anything to advance any discussions Oh, I can help you out here. They're trolling each other for catharsis.
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Sep 25, 2017 22:45
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Listen, the point is, telling people that if they don't settle down and accept the wisdom of their elders, they will end up as a cesspit of MAGA chuds, and the worst place on the Internet - well, it is incredibly patronizing and insulting since it implies the posters you are addressing are basically just waiting for an excuse to shed all pretenses of decency and that they are incapable of understanding their own actions and acting according to some ethical standards.
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Sep 25, 2017 22:45
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Instead of continuing the eternal slapfight I'm gonna try and be the change I wanna see in the world. I wanna talk some more about Malcolm Jenkins and what he's been doing for racial justice. Partially because he's a player on my favorite sports team, but also because the dude seems to be putting in a lot of effort and it's helped me think about my role in the world and what I should do. I don't think I have quite the platform he does, but I'm trying my best to echo what he's saying. Here he is on MSNBC talking about his protests and Trump: https://twitter.com/mitchellreports/status/912353077080018946 And here's a video about PA's proposed Clean Slate legislation that would seal criminal records for non-violent offenses and make it easier for people to re-integrate into society after leaving prison. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOardgNVerA The bill has already passed the PA State Senate with votes from both parties but has stalled in the House. Please tell friends/family to call their State Rep to support it: https://yesoncleanslate.org/ - link to find your State Rep if you don't know who they are I am really hopeful that the stuff Kaepernick started in the NFL can continue to spread and we'll see more athletes using their megaphone to do good stuff like this. I also think it's really important that in Jenkins' weekly column he's been pointing out how white people need to make racial and social justice a priority since it affects them too and I'm trying to listen to him and be helpful on this stuff. I think Malcolm Jenkins is starting to get through to guys on the Eagles as he's been getting a lot more vocal support and Chris Long donated his first 6 game checks to scholarships in Charlottesville in part because he's now seeing how racism in America is still alive and well. I've been trying to have conversations about my parents around this because they're the typical white Boomers who have had their head on the sand on these issues and while I don't think I've quite convinced them yet, they at least aren't openly hostile any more.
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Sep 25, 2017 22:46
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steinrokkan posted:Listen, the point is, telling people that if they don't settle down and accept the wisdom of their elders, they will end up as a cesspit of MAGA chuds, and the worst place on the Internet - well, it is incredibly patronizing and insulting since it implies the posters you are addressing are basically just waiting for an excuse to shed all pretenses of decency. Isn't this Leninism in a nutshell?
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Sep 25, 2017 22:47
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steinrokkan posted:the worst place on the Internet oh you sweet innocent child, I wish I still believed t_d was the worst place on the internet cherish that feeling
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Sep 25, 2017 22:47
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You know what, its cool. I don't even care and want it to get back on track. Thank you for the good post, axeil!
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Sep 25, 2017 22:48
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edit-snip
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Sep 25, 2017 22:50
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axeil posted:And here's a video about PA's proposed Clean Slate legislation that would seal criminal records for non-violent offenses and make it easier for people to re-integrate into society after leaving prison. This is a really worthwhile bill; thanks for posting about it. I don't know too many people who live in PA, but I'll be sure to pass it around anyway. I'm sure I know someone who knows a Pennsylvanian!
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Sep 25, 2017 22:52
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Trabisnikof posted:oh you sweet innocent child, I wish I still believed t_d was the worst place on the internet Barring like deep web pedo forums or an ISIS community, it's pretty high up there, literally just a giant nazi/fundie/general right-wing extremist circlejerk.
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Sep 25, 2017 22:52
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Potato Salad posted:The Waste thread had a little bit of good posting, but it was mostly pages and pages of tone policing twitter linking bullshit. That stuff can stay dead, and please do carry over the good posting about actual leftism. But this sort of stuff is basically also what happens a bunch in Trump-related threads. Do you also get this mad when people talk about the bad and/or dumb things Trump or people related to him say? If not, why not? If you genuinely support the people attacked in the leftist threads, by all means feel free to argue against them on actual ideological grounds, but it seems like you're just applying this weird tone argument selectively to people who happen to personally dislike. Once you realize that there's an actual ideological differences, I think things make more sense. I get the impression you're still viewing things as "more radical liberals attacking less radical liberals" rather than a situation where people are genuinely unhappy with the past/current state/actions of the Democratic Party. Potato Salad posted:Waste built this enormous strawman around centrism and its posters are having trouble refocusing on what's important now that the "paste link, post about awfulness" thread is closed. I would say that the main difference is that most people criticizing the Democrats are actually part of the Democratic Party, or at least peopel who generally vote for Democratic politicians. It doesn't really matter if a bunch of liberals get angry at Trump (unless they actually take direct action, like protesting outside of politicians' offices or something), but Democrats do seem to care about the fact that a significant portion of their base is not happy with them. This also brings to mind another reason the anti-left sentiment from liberals is strange to me. Currently mainstream liberals are dominant within the Democratic Party, so it comes off as very bizarre to see them attacking and insulting what is still a far less powerful movement. When leftists attack Democrats, they're punching up, but when mainstream liberals attack leftists they're punching down (at least when they do so on the basis of things other than actual ideas/ideology, which is usually the case). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 22:52
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steinrokkan posted:Listen, the point is, telling people that if they don't settle down and accept the wisdom of their elders, they will end up as a cesspit of MAGA chuds, and the worst place on the Internet - well, it is incredibly patronizing and insulting since it implies the posters you are addressing are basically just waiting for an excuse to shed all pretenses of decency and that they are incapable of understanding their own actions and acting according to some ethical standards. Who is telling you to accept the wisdom of your elders, or that you'll go full MAGA? e: at koala's request above , I stop this here Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 22:52
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Lemming posted:And the posters that go too far get probated or banned, unlike the Donald where they ban people who don't go far enough to those extremes. See, identical. Earlier in this thread some one posted about how they hoped a Judge would be assassinated.
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Sep 25, 2017 22:53
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Majorian posted:This is a really worthwhile bill; thanks for posting about it. I don't know too many people who live in PA, but I'll be sure to pass it around anyway. I'm sure I know someone who knows a Pennsylvanian! Thanks! I'm not in PA any more or I'd be calling every day. This seems like the rare piece of legislation that's an obvious good idea and has already gotten votes from Rs and Ds. It's still not going to solve all the systemic racism problems over night, but it's a start! Plus maybe if it passes in PA other states will take it up too. I wonder if there's any other pieces of legislation teed up like this that people can start organizing behind. The discussion we had a few days back of what Denver, CO was doing with their policing to help de-escalate situations is another really smart idea but I dunno how you advocate for your town/city/county/etc. to adopt it. axeil fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 22:57
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Yardbomb posted:Barring like deep web pedo forums or an ISIS community, it's pretty high up there, literally just a giant nazi/fundie/general right-wing extremist circlejerk. t_d is only the beginning when we're talking racist/nazi online message boards. t_d has a lot of bots and well groomed by the mods at this point. t_d is the online right all dressed up and ready to dance. Then you've got your freeps and stormfronts, etc worse than t_d but also still vaguely public enough that mods pull the absolute worst posts. But we also have the MRA sites and forums where their regressive views are rarely limited to human rights. But there's voat and gab and a few other places designed from the ground up to be safe spaces for right-wing circle jerks. And even worse than them are the more semi-anonymous places like the chans, their right-wing spinoffs, irc, discords, and other relatively safe spaces to be completely horrible.
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Sep 25, 2017 22:58
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Lemming posted:Yeah, I punched my brother once, which means it's exactly the same as if I shot him to death. Idiot. Echo chamber radicalization totally isn't a thing. Majorian posted:This is a really worthwhile bill; thanks for posting about it. I don't know too many people who live in PA, but I'll be sure to pass it around anyway. I'm sure I know someone who knows a Pennsylvanian! Agreed. The blight of how much of a death sentence a non-violent criminal history is to job prospects, especially to PoC, is completely inexcusable. Well, except to financial criminals. Those aren't prosecuted hard enough. Ruined lives should be equivalent to murder.
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Sep 25, 2017 22:58
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Weird how all these guys all crawl out of the woodwork at the same time..
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Sep 25, 2017 22:59
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Koalas March posted:You know what, its cool. I don't even care and want it to get back on track. Thank you for the good post, axeil! You're welcome! So, I know you're big on racial justice stuff, do you have any ideas for stuff along these lines: axeil posted:
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Sep 25, 2017 23:03
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axeil posted:You're welcome! I made a big post about this awhile ago but it boils down to: Cops need regular psych evals, almost all of them need to be replaced, we need to implement a completely new training system that is less fear based and focused on deescalation, protecting and serving. They should be required to live in the communities they serve, and instead of 'patrolling' have walkabouts where they interact with their community and actually engage them regularly. Also we need to find a way to stop this buddy/buddy poo poo happening between the police and the district attorney's office. And to seize their military gear. If you are not swat, you don't need it.
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Sep 25, 2017 23:08
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twodot posted:I think there's room for a political philosophy of "Change is inherently risky, we shouldn't treat our society like a laboratory testing and trying various policies. New policy, especially radical policy, should be backed by strong evidence and only then adopted", but that's what conservatives are supposed to be instead of whatever insane racist caricature the US ended up with. (I disagree with that philosophy, but I wouldn't reflexively call someone supporting it an idiot) I agree with this, though I would argue that someone's own life experiences go a long way towards informing how they judge the opportunity cost to having to wait longer for positive change. The impression I get from some liberals is that they only care about reading a good outcome at some point, with it not really mattering if it happens in 10 years or 50 years. And I think this is "reasonable" (in a selfish sorta way) position to take if your life is currently relatively comfortable/secure, since bad change would hurt you far more than good change would help you under those circumstances. But time matters, and every year that passes without addressing these problems means a hell of a lot additional suffering. Obviously there are practical limits to how fast things can be accomplished, but I see no harm in citizens pushing for ambitious/radical positive change. I don't think a hypothetical "government institutes single-payer health insurance or increases taxes on the top 20% a bunch and it somehow causes society to become terrible" is a very realistic scenario, so I don't really see what the people arguing against radicals are so concerned about. edit: To add to this, I just don't see what the harm is in a bunch of people getting all passionate and riled up over stuff like universal healthcare and other beneficial policy. At least in this forum, these leftist threads aren't actually resulting in people randomly becoming Nazis or whatever, so I can't really put myself in the mindset of someone who sees them and goes "oh no, this has got to stop!" People becoming more radically in a leftward direction is a good thing, and it is not comparable to people becoming radicalized to the far-right. Potato Salad posted:I don't think you're posting in bad faith, and I recognize the fact that the Waste thread had some substance. Some of the stuff I've seen in there -- lots of it, frankly -- is the sort of substance-light positive idea feedback looping that I saw in the early t_d subreddit. Its dangerous, and the flare ups of that taking place in here that can be substituted for better leftism advocacy See, I don't even disagree with the "Democrats are a waste" thread often not having substance, but I absolutely have no clue where your'e coming from with this "It's dangerous" stuff. Those threads have never resulted in people becoming radicalized to bad ideas, and when people with bad ideas do occasionally show up (like people who voted for Trump or dislike identity politics) the circle-jerk stops and people argue against them. axeil posted:Everyone's flawed, no one is right, all rigid and inflexible ideologies suck (but some suck a lot worse than others) and radical restructuring of anything should be done judiciously and carefully so as to not accidentally make things worse. That's a really fuckin easy position to take when you're currently doing fine, isn't it? And regardless, there's no realistic possibility of the stuff most leftist are proposing actually causing any serious problems like those you seem to be concerned about. You're exhibiting excessive risk-aversion motivated by the fact that you likely have little to gain personally from left-leaning policy (and possibly something to lose, depending upon how much money you make, which is why I think a lot of more powerful/influential liberals aren't that enthusiastic about leftist ideas). It's easy to focus on the end outcome when you're not suffering in the interim! edit: It's nice to hear someone actually be explicit about it, though, because it's been really obvious for a long time that a big motivation for anti-left sentiment among liberals is the risk-aversion you mention. It's an understandable feeling, but it's still wrong and ultimately born out of privilege. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 23:09
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Like, we have actual Trots and Leninists that post here, as well as tankies of various stripes. It's silly to say that radicalization can't happen here or from the left, because it totally can and does.
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Sep 25, 2017 23:30
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Grapplejack posted:Like, we have actual Trots and Leninists that post here, as well as tankies of various stripes. It's silly to say that radicalization can't happen here or from the left, because it totally can and does. I think that's probably not what Ytlaya means when he's talking about radicalization. "Radicalization" means more than just adopting political ideologies outside of the mainstream.
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Sep 25, 2017 23:34
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:Earlier in this thread some one posted about how they hoped a Judge would be assassinated. That wouldn't happen if Judge Reinhold wasn't such a monster. Grapplejack posted:Like, we have actual Trots and Leninists that post here, as well as tankies of various stripes. It's silly to say that radicalization can't happen here or from the left, because it totally can and does. A tankie mods this subforum.
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Sep 25, 2017 23:36
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Majorian posted:I think that's probably not what Ytlaya means when he's talking about radicalization. "Radicalization" means more than just adopting political ideologies outside of the mainstream. Well, I mean, I would say that what they mentioned actually is an example of radicalization, but I would also say that "people becoming Leninists" is not even remotely close to being an actual problem in the USA. I also haven't really seen opinions continue shifting to the left with most people beyond just social democracy or socialism. I think that's my biggest issue with this whole thing, and what makes me suspicious about where the people criticizing the left are really coming from. It is completely ridiculous for any reasonable person to think that there's a risk of a significant number of Americans moving "too far to the left." Unlike, say, the alt-right, these views have far less influence and are also inherently far less harmful. It just seems to me like all these arguments are the result of someone trying to come up with some plausible-sounding excuse for their attitude towards the left, because they either know that their real reasons aren't that sympathetic or they don't even know themselves why they're so bothered (probably moreso the latter than the former). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 23:48
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Leftist radicalization results in broken windows and getting tricked into "blowing up" a bridge by the FBI. I think we're safe.
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Sep 25, 2017 23:50
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x-post from the suck zone: tony blair wants you to know that bernie is just as bad as trump. but unlike trump, we should not work with bernie, cause he's bad (as bad as trump, who we should work with)
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Sep 26, 2017 00:14
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Koalas March posted:Also we need to find a way to stop this buddy/buddy poo poo happening between the police and the district attorney's office.
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Sep 26, 2017 00:16
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Graham-Cassidy is dead apparently. McCain, Paul, and Collins are all hard nos. I'm not uncrossing my fingers until the 1st, though.
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Sep 26, 2017 00:16
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Graham-Cassidy is dead apparently. McCain, Paul, and Collins are all hard nos. that debate tonight with graham and sanders might actually be interesting
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Sep 26, 2017 00:19
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https://twitter.com/kurteichenwald/status/912424940003106816 My sweet little pervert. 😍
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Sep 26, 2017 00:19
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The Muppets On PCP posted:that debate tonight with graham and sanders might actually be interesting Indeed. I hope Sanders just ignores Graham and plows forward with his stump speech.
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Sep 26, 2017 00:21
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Condiv posted:tony blair wants you to know that bernie is just as bad as trump. but unlike trump, we should not work with bernie, cause he's bad (as bad as trump, who we should work with) I hope Tony Blair is tortured in whatever afterlife exists by the souls of all the dead loving Iraqi children he helped murder.
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Sep 26, 2017 00:22
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He should - the debate should basically be, "Your bill is dead because it doesn't help Americans, we need to move to a healthcare system that works [insert UHC discussion]"
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Sep 26, 2017 00:23
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Majorian posted:Indeed. I hope Sanders just ignores Graham and plows forward with his stump speech. nah he should just dunk on graham for an hour
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Sep 26, 2017 00:25
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Pembroke Fuse posted:I hope Tony Blair is tortured in whatever afterlife exists by the souls of all the dead loving Iraqi children he helped murder. Seriously this. I hope it's in the same pit as Murdock since they love hanging out together so much.
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Sep 26, 2017 00:25
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Radish posted:Seriously this. I hope it's in the same pit as Murdock since they love hanging out together so much. Wendi Deng is not a 'pit.'
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Sep 26, 2017 00:32
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While we're talking about the difference between liberalism and leftism (are we still there? I lost power from 12-5 today so I missed a lot of the thread) I just finished reading Utopia for Realists, which I liked a lot. The book advocates UBI, shorter workweeks, and open borders. Is this liberalism or leftism? I feel like it's leftism, but I wanna check. It sounds kinda socialisty, and if that's the case, then I guess I'm pretty socialisty, too, because I want all those things very much. Um, are there any books the leftists can recommend to me on more socialist theory? I'd really like to know the actual difference between socialism and communism. Edit: Oh, speaking of Tony Blair, there was a quote in the UfR that is relevant. Apparently Margaret Thatcher was asked what her greatest achievement was, and she responded "Tony Blair" or something like that. The her version of conservative government was so far reaching, even Labour went there. Hellblazer187 fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Sep 26, 2017 |
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Sep 26, 2017 00:32
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Ague Proof posted:Wendi Deng is not a 'pit.' Murdoch and Deng divorced four years ago.
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Sep 26, 2017 00:36
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https://twitter.com/JustinWolfers/status/912446210128203778 Hasn't been this productive in years. 😎
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Sep 26, 2017 00:38
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Hellblazer187 posted:While we're talking about the difference between liberalism and leftism (are we still there? I lost power from 12-5 today so I missed a lot of the thread) I just finished reading Utopia for Realists, which I liked a lot. The book advocates UBI, shorter workweeks, and open borders. Is this liberalism or leftism? I feel like it's leftism, but I wanna check. It sounds kinda socialisty, and if that's the case, then I guess I'm pretty socialisty, too, because I want all those things very much. Um, are there any books the leftists can recommend to me on more socialist theory? I'd really like to know the actual difference between socialism and communism. shorter workweek is. i've heard arguments both for and against ubi on the left, but it can be considered leftist. open borders is the same deal. i think open borders would be a good policy cause it'd demolish a lot of the sway employers have over illegal immigrants. that's also why you won't see it for a good while a system where illegal immigrants are illegal, but they aren't deported very fast and employers really aren't hurt for hiring them is good for employers cause they have the sword of damocles called ice hanging over the heads of their illegal workforce, making them more likely to accept wages well below the legal limit, avoid unionizing, or doing p much anything else that the employer might not like.
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Sep 26, 2017 00:40
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