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7c Nickel posted:Yeah, this is still a dumb take. Nah. if you lose to Donald Trump in a general election after a video comes out with him bragging about sexually assaulting women, your campaign is so fundamentally flawed that the buck stops with you.
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Sep 27, 2017 00:26
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7c Nickel posted:Because I feel like you're misallocating blame and by doing so, making future decisions based on bad information. She absolutely could have done things differently and those things absolutely could have swung the election. A good example of this is all the people who smugly go "She lost to DONALD TRUMP!" are making the exact same mistake she did, assuming that how lovely the republican candidate is actually an important factor. She ran too much on pointing out how poo poo he was and not enough on boosting her own turnout. PJ and I largely agree this is largely summarized as "leadership" or in this case lack thereof.
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Sep 27, 2017 00:30
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7c Nickel posted:Because I feel like you're misallocating blame and by doing so, making future decisions based on bad information. She absolutely could have done things differently and those things absolutely could have swung the election. A good example of this is all the people who smugly go "She lost to DONALD TRUMP!" are making the exact same mistake she did, assuming that how lovely the republican candidate is actually an important factor. She ran too much on pointing out how poo poo he was and not enough on boosting her own turnout. Then we agree, the fault ultimately lies with her. She lost to a genuinely weaker opponent because of her hubris. She should have been able to defeat him- except for the decisions she made as a result of her hubris. If she had just run a bog-standard by the book campaign (remember how she portrayed herself as the "by-the-book" competent administrator) then neither Comey nor Russia would have mattered. She wanted to be leader, and she got her turn in the big chair. While she was there she hosed it up severely and her incompetence has had massive negative consequences for literally tens of millions of Americans. Sorry but that is just how leadership works. She took the big chair and then on her maiden voyage as captain hosed it all up. While I certainly have issues with what Comey did and do not deny it swung the election, none of that changes the fact that it was her own incompetence that put her campaign in the position it was in. If she had just been the boring by-the-book administrator she portrayed herself as she would have crushed Trump. Instead she threw out the book and had an over-managed campaign souless campaign with too many chiefs and almost no contact with the grunts who could have actually carried the day.
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Sep 27, 2017 00:31
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RuanGacho posted:PJ and I largely agree this is largely summarized as "leadership" or in this case lack thereof. And I guess I'd summarize it as "focus".  Also it's nice that someone tried to call me out using the exact same fallacy I was talking about two posts earlier. Prester Jane posted:Then we agree, the fault ultimately lies with her. She lost to a genuinely weaker opponent because of her hubris. She should have been able to defeat him- except for the decisions she made as a result of her hubris. If she had just run a bog-standard by the book campaign (remember how she portrayed herself as the "by-the-book" competent administrator) then neither Comey nor Russia would have mattered. She wanted to be leader, and she got her turn in the big chair. While she was there she hosed it up severely and her incompetence has had massive negative consequences for literally tens of millions of Americans. I think "the fault ultimately lies" is a useless and unhelpful simplification for anything but pillorying specific people. She lost because of a lot of reason, quite a few of those outside her control.
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Sep 27, 2017 00:33
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 yeah obama! it's so peaceful right no... https://medium.com/@rafaelshimunov/nazis-start-gasthesynagogue-in-reaction-to-st-louis-jews-shielding-protestors-from-police-b3fdf9488593 quote:The people of St. Louis took to the streets in response to the acquittal of ex-cop Jason Stockley for the murder of Anthony Lamar Smith. Stockley, when engaged on a police chase of Smith was recorded premeditating his killing of Smith. 
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Sep 27, 2017 00:33
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Condiv posted:
He said 'the world' and he is correct. Unless you think the world means Western Europe and North America.
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Sep 27, 2017 00:38
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7c Nickel posted:
Uh, just no. When you are the leader it is always the case that the fault ultimately lies with you for the conduct of the organization you lead. The responsibility for Sarah Palin being unleashed on the world ultimately lies with John McCain- even if his only real mistake in that entire affair was trusting his advisers to do a proper vetting in only three days. Ultimate responsibility for what happened while Hillary was the official leader of the Democratic Party lies with Hillary. She made mistakes and her opponents were able to exploit those mistakes. There is absolutely nothing fair about politics and that goes quadruple for anyone who wants to be leader of the free world. Hillary hosed up her shot because her hubris blinded her, and the ultimate responsibility for her decisions while leader (and the consequences of those decisions) lies with Hillary.
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Sep 27, 2017 00:40
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Peachfart posted:He said 'the world' and he is correct. Unless you think the world means Western Europe and North America.  nazis making inroads all over the place, nk claiming they have nukes and launching missles, the middle east is a hellholeyep, all's right in the world. so peaceful!
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Sep 27, 2017 00:44
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The world sucks but it is less violent. Both of those statments are true.
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Sep 27, 2017 00:48
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:The world sucks but it is less violent. Both of those statments are true. Video is from 2014 but its points are still accurate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbuUW9i-mHs
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Sep 27, 2017 00:49
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Condiv posted:
First off quote:Despite the “extraordinary challenges” the world is facing – from growing economic inequality and climate change to mass migration and terrorism – “if you had to choose any moment in history in which to be born, you would choose right now. The world has never been healthier, or wealthier, or better educated or in many ways more tolerant or less violent,” he said in his speech, at an event for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. There's nothing incorrect about that statement. Yes a lot of the world is poo poo, but it used to be a lot worse. Secondly, what is the most healthful, wealthful, and peaceful time in humanity's history, then?
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Sep 27, 2017 00:52
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seiferguy posted:Let's be honest here, has there been anyone who's actually said "oh wait, they weren't protesting the troops by kneeling? Well that changes my opinion!" I'm sure if you dug up the mildewing corpse of Ken Bone from the trash heap of 2016 this would be his response to being told the information. America is at least 30% Ken Bones.
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Sep 27, 2017 00:53
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Angry_Ed posted:First off you would choose the time when climate change is starting to gear up to be born? really?
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Sep 27, 2017 00:53
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Angry_Ed posted:First off The period with the most scientific and medical advancement, which is the most recent date possible. If that's all we're going to go off of for "things are great" then its a meaningless statement. And that's really all this statement is: "Things are great. People dont have reason to be restless". It's a sentiment directed at nervous rich people.
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Sep 27, 2017 00:55
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Neurolimal posted:The period with the most scientific and medical advancement, which is the most recent date possible. If that's all we're going to go off of for "things are great" then its a meaningless statement. quote:Obama called on the audience to reject cynicism and to look with optimism to the future. “Not blind optimism, but hard-earned optimism, rooted in very real progress,” he said. Again, not what he's saying. He's saying we should look past the cynicism and still keep trying to do better.
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Sep 27, 2017 00:57
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Neurolimal posted:The period with the most scientific and medical advancement, which is the most recent date possible. If that's all we're going to go off of for "things are great" then its a meaningless statement. Do we really think that Obama doesn't think there are very real problems or is just Condiv just being an rear end in a top hat?
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Sep 27, 2017 00:57
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Condiv posted:you would choose the time when climate change is starting to gear up to be born? really? We're talking about violence, not existential threats. Even though climate change can and has led to conflicts already the level of those conflicts has been much lower than pretty much any other era for an extremely long time, which is the point of the statement. No one's saying there aren't huge problems for human society to overcome, and that's not what Obama is saying either: just that the level at which we actively murder each other in wars isn't what it used to be and that's at least some kind of encouraging sign that maybe humanity can change in important ways.
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Sep 27, 2017 00:58
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puerto rico, which is still almost entirely without power, water, or good, will not get a jones act waiver https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/912805320623235072
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Sep 27, 2017 00:58
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Fraction Jackson posted:We're talking about violence, not existential threats. Even though climate change can and has led to conflicts already the level of those conflicts has been much lower than pretty much any other era for an extremely long time, which is the point of the statement. No one's saying there aren't huge problems for human society to overcome, just that the level at which we actively murder each other in wars isn't what it used to be and that's at least some kind of encouraging sign that maybe humanity can change in important ways. i think nazi uprisings count as violence, and will almost certainly lead to increased violence worldwide if it gets worse. so yeah the statement is flawed as gently caress. we have a nazi sympathizer (if not an actual fascist) who wants to annihilate north korea as our leader too, doesn't seem like non-violent times to me at all
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Sep 27, 2017 00:59
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Condiv posted:i think nazi uprisings count as violence, and will almost certainly lead to increased violence worldwide if it gets worse. so yeah the statement is flawed as gently caress. we have a nazi sympathizer who wants to annihilate north korea as our leader too, doesn't seem like non-violent times to me at all You didn't answer the earlier question: If today isn't the best time to be alive(in terms of health/violence/etc), as an average human, when was?
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Sep 27, 2017 01:01
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QuoProQuid posted:puerto rico, which is still almost entirely without power, water, or good, will not get a jones act waiver What the gently caress. Why.
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Sep 27, 2017 01:02
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[quote="“Angry_Ed”" post="“476799252”"] First off (source) There’s nothing incorrect about that statement. Yes a lot of the world is poo poo, but it used to be a lot worse. Secondly, what is the most healthful, wealthful, and peaceful time in humanity’s history, then? [/quote] Probably the late 90s right before the crash. We're in the crash now and it will continue. Hope you like water wars.
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Sep 27, 2017 01:04
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Sep 27, 2017 01:05
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Peachfart posted:You didn't answer the earlier question: If today isn't the best time to be alive(in terms of health/violence/etc), as an average human, when was? a period without nazis marching through the streets of america would be my first criterion
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Sep 27, 2017 01:09
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That's the fake group right?
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Sep 27, 2017 01:11
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7c Nickel posted:That's the fake group right? Fake group? What's this about.
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Sep 27, 2017 01:12
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Grapplejack posted:I can't believe this didn't get more discussion in the thread, they're doing social engineering on a country-wide scale to try to stoke racial tensions. They're not engineering a drat thing, they're just pouring ad money into the super obvious pre-existing lines of conflict in our society. The nation is heavily divided, and they're just encouraging those divisions. The important thing is that they're not creating anything that wasn't already there - they're just twisting the volume dial a little bit. Condiv posted:i think nazi uprisings count as violence, and will almost certainly lead to increased violence worldwide if it gets worse. so yeah the statement is flawed as gently caress. we have a nazi sympathizer (if not an actual fascist) who wants to annihilate north korea as our leader too, doesn't seem like non-violent times to me at all Not just us, either. Right-wing maniacs are gaining power and influence all over Europe, the Middle East is in utter chaos, the resulting flood of refugees is encouraging reactionaries and fascists all over the planet, the number of pariah states with nuclear weapons is growing, various rival superpowers are actively expanding their influence and in some cases openly annexing land from their neighbors, and much much more. We're not exactly living in an era of global peace and harmony right now.
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Sep 27, 2017 01:12
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Condiv posted:a period without nazis marching through the streets of america would be my first criterion So before white people got here? The idea that we aren't in the most prosperous period in human history is laughably absurd. You're a reactionary pretending problems that have always existed are somehow worse now than anytime ever. It's stupid. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Sep 27, 2017 |
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Sep 27, 2017 01:13
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Condiv posted:i think nazi uprisings count as violence, and will almost certainly lead to increased violence worldwide if it gets worse. so yeah the statement is flawed as gently caress. we have a nazi sympathizer (if not an actual fascist) who wants to annihilate north korea as our leader too, doesn't seem like non-violent times to me at all It's not "non-violent," it's "less violent than previous times in history," which are different concepts. This actually is not difficult. You'll notice that "non-violent" or synonyms for the same were not contained in either my statement or the statement that sparked this conversation. It is really bad that there are literal Nazis killing people but you'll note that there are less Nazis killing less people than, say, 1944. It is possible to say "things are getting pretty bad" and also "even the worst of the poo poo going on today is less bad than it was previously." I understand the point you're trying to make (i.e. focusing on the "poo poo still sucks" portion of the program) but in the process you're being willfully ignorant of what the statement is actually saying and instead responding to a different statement that was never actually made.
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Sep 27, 2017 01:15
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Fraction Jackson posted:It's not "non-violent," it's "less violent than previous times in history," which are different concepts. This actually is not difficult. You'll notice that "non-violent" or synonyms for the same were not contained in either my statement or the statement that sparked this conversation. i disagree that its less violent either. i think things are more violent than they've been in a good while right now. and that things are just going to get more violent this is not difficult
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Sep 27, 2017 01:16
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empty whippet box posted:What the gently caress. Why. "A spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security says officials believe there is sufficient capacity of U.S.-flagged vessels to move goods to Puerto Rico. Spokesman David Lapan said most of the humanitarian shipments to Puerto Rico will be through barges, which make up a significant portion of the U.S.-flagged cargo fleet." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Sep 27, 2017 01:16
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Condiv posted:i think nazi uprisings count as violence, and will almost certainly lead to increased violence worldwide if it gets worse. so yeah the statement is flawed as gently caress. we have a nazi sympathizer (if not an actual fascist) who wants to annihilate north korea as our leader too, doesn't seem like non-violent times to me at all Condiv, you're being kinda silly here. Obama's statement is pretty tone deaf and off-putting, but it's definitely technically true. Peachfart posted:You didn't answer the earlier question: If today isn't the best time to be alive(in terms of health/violence/etc), as an average human, when was? This is true, but I take strong issue with positive framing like this because it ignores the fact that there was the potential for vastly greater improvements to life in recent decades that didn't occur due to the money/resources being siphoned to the wealthiest people/organizations, not to mention the fact that a tremendous number of people still fall below a reasonable quality of life. Someone going from "really really loving poor" to just "really loving poor" isn't really worth celebrating so much as "grimly acknowledging." Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Sep 27, 2017 |
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Sep 27, 2017 01:18
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Angry_Ed posted:Fake group? What's this about. I thought I remembered them. https://gizmodo.com/the-right-is-falling-for-its-own-fake-antifa-accounts-1798287977 It's run by rightwing trolls.
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Sep 27, 2017 01:20
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7c Nickel posted:I thought I remembered them. On the one hand that sucks, on the other hand it's funny that the alt-right are trolling themselves.
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Sep 27, 2017 01:22
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Ytlaya posted:Condiv, you're being kinda silly here. Obama's statement is pretty tone deaf and off-putting, but it's definitely technically true. i don't agree there has definitely been periods where the world was healthier, wealthier, and less violent than now, including in the recent past when there weren't nazis holding demonstrations on the regular and being so everpresent that jewish communities are hiding out of fear of them
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Sep 27, 2017 01:27
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empty whippet box posted:What the gently caress. Why. Take your pick: They are brown and they speak Spanish or "America First!"
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Sep 27, 2017 01:28
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Condiv posted:i don't agree Could you name such a date?
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Sep 27, 2017 01:30
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Condiv posted:i don't agree And yet despite being asked... you cannot name one.
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Sep 27, 2017 01:31
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Condiv posted:i don't agree So basically you're incapable of viewing the world through any lens but that of your own personal lived experience, is what you're saying
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Sep 27, 2017 01:32
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Tulip posted:Could you name such a date? 5 years ago it wasn't this bad yeah, things weren't great, but we didn't have nazi uprisings all over the place quite yet
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Sep 27, 2017 01:38
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