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resurgam40 posted:
You are falling into the same trap Ange is.
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Sep 27, 2017 16:11
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resurgam40 posted:Is it some kind of metaphor that an abusive family member stays a part of that family through his abuse, despite everyone's attempt to move on? Is there some greater point that is being made about sexual abuse, and meant to put us in the headspace of somebody who is confronted with their rapist, in order to highlight the numerous women who can't get justice for the crimes against them and have to be around the ones who hurt them? Or is R07 just this forgiving? In short no Obviously there's a bit of a theme going on here with how second (or nth) hand information colors the way we see and judge people. It's not just Kinzo, but his portrayal here is clearly the most obvious example since it basically seems to have gone from one extreme to another yet is still not quite out of character. Over the course of the story you've been told many things about Kinzo, a character who has been dead long before the events even began. You've been shown scenes of his past life by people and witches and their magical furniture and tabloids who were never there in the first place. Based on what you heard, he's pretty much a monster of a human being. And if you're Ange, from what you yourself remember, he was scary when you were about five years old. But reminder that we're still in the middle of the story and it's probably better to reserve judgement on R07's points after he's finished making them.
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Sep 27, 2017 16:25
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Yeah, part of the whole point of this is that Ange has no way of knowing what exactly was truth or not. Witches can tell you as many stories as they want but it doesn't prove anything. Also like, as stated, our current Beato as far as we've seen interacted with Kinzo only once, and that was when he wailed sorry at her a lot and then died. So like... she, personally, has no reason to resent or detest him. (Her mother does, if the other stories we were told are correct, but her mother is dead and not interacting with Kinzo in a positive way in this episode anyway).
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Sep 27, 2017 16:44
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So, stupid idea with no support other than gut feeling with a slice of "that'd be nice": Amakusa is the Battler who escaped from the island. Just a dumb twist idea, but it'd be interesting if true. From just reading along, I'm also going to guess that Eva never told Ange the truth to both A) protect her from terrible information about her family, and B) to give her a hard shell to protect her from the world since she would be alone once Eva died. As we all know, the kids were not well adjusted adults, and after surviving the events of the island, I can't imagine how traumatized one would be in their mental processes.
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Sep 27, 2017 16:57
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RedMagus posted:
From the side story posted earlier. It seems a good deal of the problem Eva and Ange had came from the fact that Ange rejected Eva. Which overtime combined with Eva's stress and the constant attacks on her led to her rejecting Ange as well. This is further supported by Ange stating that their relationship was not bad early on.
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Sep 27, 2017 19:04
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resurgam40 posted:No, it's this... poo poo... of Beatrice sitting down and making nice with the architect of all her suffering, the unrepentant Coward, and not even so much of making mention of the pain he has caused. It's this blight of a man being accepted by his victim without even a scrap of atonement for what he's done. It's the elimination of three whole people's years of pain for the sake of a pretty dream. Natsushi, Nanjo, and Genji had way more to do with Yasu's suffering than Kinzo. As has already been pointed out, Yasu met Kinzo for all of ten minutes before he dropped dead. As for Eva and Ange, if we take Ep7 tea party as truth, part of the reason Eva can't tell Ange what really happened isn't just to protect her from her mother's crime, but also the fact that Eva really did personally and deliberately shoot both of Ange's parents dead. (Probably Battler too but we can't say for sure.) While a court of law or us readers might take into account self-defense, an orphaned 6 year old sure as hell won't. So every time Ange blames Eva for taking her family away, she's not wrong.
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Sep 27, 2017 19:33
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Also last I check I you can't really call Kinzo an unrepentant coward. Cause he was repentant and he never did anything to be labeled a coward. He was insane and did a horrible thing still. So no harm in hating him. Also as said by others Sayo/Yasu was never his victim. He had very little interaction with her and when he did find out who she was he spent his last moments apologizing. Pretty much as Ziegedame said Natsuhi, Nanjo and Genji had a bit more to do with her suffering. Natsuhi for throwing her off a cliff, Nanjo for saving the baby's life, Genji for not know how to raise a child.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:42
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MonsterEnvy posted:Also last I check I you can't really call Kinzo an unrepentant coward. Cause he was repentant and he never did anything to be labeled a coward. He was insane and did a horrible thing still. So no harm in hating him. Oh, I'm not letting any of them off the hook for their part in creating Yasu- especially not Nanjo, the bastard- but I don't have as much of a problem with them as I do with Kinzo being a part of this. Genji thought that what he was doing was best, but he ultimately was too broken of a person to provide much help, for example, and Natsuhi... attempted murder, no other way to say it, but she instantly regretted it and spent her life in misery and paranoia as a result. But to extend the same benefit of the doubt to Kinzo? Sorry, I can't really do that. Because Kinzo is a true coward, and while he might have a apologized to a victim of his crimes, he could not apologize to THE victim-Yasu's mother- and more importantly, no one except his inner circle of Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa ever knew about his crime. He might have confessed to them, and to Yasu, but the sticking point is that he did not confess to the world at large and to a court of law before he died. There was no letter of confession, no tearful phone call, no prostration of the self before anybody but his child born of the same crime, who called him "father" before he died, although he was no father to anyone. If he is so damned sorry about what he's done, why did he not turn himself into the authorities? And if nobody would arrest him or if he is worried about bringing shame upon his family line, why did he not turn everything over to somebody- to Krauss, or even to Genji- and exile himself to a forest or a monastery, somewhere where he would hurt no one else? Hell, why didn't he just take one of his original rifles he is so proud of and just blow his own damned brains out with it? And here we come to the problem of this crime, this particular crime, that I have trouble getting past. Because while I have tried to be a good person and to study forgiveness; while I know on an intellectual level that a society, to be civilized and merciful, must respond to a crime by putting restitution to the victims first, addressing the factors that created crime and criminal second, and the punishment of said criminal as distant a third as possible; and although I do remind myself that Kinzo needed help too, and it is just as much a failure that he didn't get it before he hurt somebody... there is a darker part of my mind. The part that gnashes it's teeth for the punishment of sin; the part that would see all rapists' bodies burned and their heads cut off- both heads- and displayed upon the most public place, so all might see what happens to people who use other people as things... the part that wants punishment, and would absolutely agree with all that Beatrice has done. Can there be repentant criminals? Sure- there can even be repentant rapists... but only after they have confessed their crimes and are monitored by a just system, and only after they have recognized the evil inside them and have spent their lives atoning for it. I'm not proud of that part but it is there, and- deliberately or not, I don't know- it is being evoked by this story, because Kinzo escaped punishment. Years of abuse aided and abetted by those around him, and he died in obscurity, as he wanted. And the only consolation we have is that he can't hurt anyone anymore. But- fine. You're right; we're still not too far into the story, and while I may suspect where R07 is going, I don't know it. I've gone this far, I might as well go all the way... But this entire situation just ensure that I have to see this story from Ange's perspective. As you have said, there's no way she knew about any of this, just that her grandpa was scary sometimes... so this is a dream: an illusion constructed by the memnory of her older brother to teach her something, and for this, he constructed illusory people. A fake Kinzo, and a fake Beatrice (who probably did find out what happened to their mother, as I've always feared... that's what I've always thought the freak-out at Shannon concerning "men are flies and maggots" that they made was about), to teach a real lesson about reconciliation and moving on? Who knows.
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Sep 27, 2017 21:42
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Let's be honesty, if Kinzo went to the Nijima police station and confessed to raping a dead daughter who did not legally exist, they'd probably call Krauss to come pick up his senile father.
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Sep 27, 2017 22:00
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More to the point, Beato says in this update that Battler's story of EP8 is not about her. It's not about Yasu. It's just about Ange's perspective and Ange's choices. I don't think Ryukishi is trying to say that Kinzo should be forgiven, or that it's wrong for Yasu to hate him for how his reprehensible actions caused a great deal of suffering. But Kinzo's sin really means next to nothing to Ange, and... it's not an appropriate topic for a six year old girl anyway, is it?
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Sep 27, 2017 22:57
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Well drat. I guess I've been, or currently am, in Ange's shoes too. Yeah, I can see what the purpose of the eighth game is. When one's been so horribly affected by people or circumstances, focusing on hating is understandable but not conducive to moving on, and enjoying the rest of one's life. The mindset for anyone in such a position would be both to hate the circumstances (the people responsible for such circumstances, usually), and yearning for a life outside of the circumstances. Where Ange is at right now is standing at the doorway where a life outside of the circumstances exists, but instead of progressing towards that, they are instead turned away from it, and instead glaring towards the cause of their circumstances in anger. Ange faces a chance of never truly being able to escape towards freedom by continuing to hold on to the demonized caricatures of the bad family members in their life. Of course I don't think Kinzo is worthy of forgiveness, but he's dead and there's not anything reasonable anyone can do to anymore drag a punishment out of him. The issue is that Ange is hanging on the pop-fiction consensus of Kinzo as a "BEATOOORRICHE"-spouting, occult eccentric instead of the human truth of him being a flawed (terribly flawed) person who didn't need anything more than human nature that everyone already has to commit the sins he did. No need for the cartoon version to explain what had happened back then. For Ange, it's more important to realize that it's the same with Eva. Eva made Ange's life a living hell, but being pushed to continuously demonize Eva according to sordid tabloid tales is not beneficial past a point. Hopefully Ange can find the way to leave behind the remnants of the trauma they survived, and make it towards a better life. Hopefully the same happens to all of us. bman in 2288 posted:I know, Ange. I've been there. Sup, fellow Ange.   Tired Moritz posted:uh, I'm not trying to underwhelm Kinzo's big crime and all but the direct source of Sayo's problems is being pushed off a cliff. I think there would and should be a bigger focus on Kinzo if this story was about Beat2's tragedy but it really isn't. It's just background story to explain Sayo's existence. Understood and agreed. However it makes it even more suck for Beat2 that their own life doesn't matter per se... RedMagus posted:So, stupid idea with no support other than gut feeling with a slice of "that'd be nice": Amakusa is the Battler who escaped from the island. Just a dumb twist idea, but it'd be interesting if true. I'd be a fan of this theory!
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Sep 28, 2017 02:02
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What gets me is that both Ange and Yasu/Sayo are unable to see any long-term happiness due to an event that happened in their childhood or infancy, when they were unable to do anything about it. But the other aspect, I think, is that they've both got a super legitimate right to be sad and angry and hurt by the thing that happened.
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Sep 28, 2017 03:18
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RedMagus posted:So, stupid idea with no support other than gut feeling with a slice of "that'd be nice": Amakusa is the Battler who escaped from the island. Just a dumb twist idea, but it'd be interesting if true. Well we've never gotten any details on what Battler was up to for those 6 years, so we can't say for sure that he wasn't a mercenary tormenting children in the countryside in 1984.
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Sep 28, 2017 03:42
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EagerSleeper posted:Understood and agreed. However it makes it even more suck for Beat2 that their own life doesn't matter per se... Yep. That's the one... the big thing hanging over this story that everyone's forgotten. When it was said this story would have no happy ending, I wonder if Berne had Bea2 in mind, because if you want an unhappy story, there you go. A girl who never knew her mother, kept in captivity by a father who she also never knew about, forced to bear an old man's mad lust and the resultant child, without even the vocabulary to know what was happening to her... who during her only day of freedom, slipped on the rocks and fell to her death. The end. No moral. And while the man who committed this crime died without pain, surrounded by his servants and with his child fulfilling his final request, his victim is forgotten by everyone else in the story... a death unremarked upon by all except the possible child she left behind... or maybe that's just what I tell myself because I can't bear the thought of her story being glossed over.  Ugh... But this is not that story, and I have to enjoy it for what it is, and not what I wish it were. (And I can get so oversensitive when reading...) So... I know we have to move on, but screw it: I have to do one thing first. This story is for Ange, so let it be for Ange... this one is for me. ProfessorProf posted:
There... Now I feel better. 
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Sep 28, 2017 06:37
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"Ahhahahahahahahahahaha!! Simply splendid. I am glad to see-
"Shuddup."
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EagerSleeper posted:Of course I don't think Kinzo is worthy of forgiveness, but he's dead and there's not anything reasonable anyone can do to anymore drag a punishment out of him. The issue is that Ange is hanging on the pop-fiction consensus of Kinzo as a "BEATOOORRICHE"-spouting, occult eccentric instead of the human truth of him being a flawed (terribly flawed) person who didn't need anything more than human nature that everyone already has to commit the sins he did. No need for the cartoon version to explain what had happened back then. For Ange, it's more important to realize that it's the same with Eva. Eva made Ange's life a living hell, but being pushed to continuously demonize Eva according to sordid tabloid tales is not beneficial past a point. Hopefully Ange can find the way to leave behind the remnants of the trauma they survived, and make it towards a better life. Hopefully the same happens to all of us. There's a line I heard that I think fits here: "Funerals are for the living." When you're dead, your life is over, but those left behind still have to process your life, and what legacy you left behind. Ange is having to do that twice over, both with Eva and the entire rest of the family, and with her support network being a bunch of people getting their kicks, relatives that want to put her back into the same bound/imprisoned situation, and a snarky bodyguard.
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Sep 28, 2017 14:01
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 BGM: Doorway of Summer However, inside the cousins' room, it was loud and cheery. It could have been raining spears, and no one would have paid any attention.   "Whoa. You weren't bluffing...!"The cousins were all bursting with energy, sitting in a circle on the bed.  "And I thought Battler always had crap in his hands every time he acted tough...!" "Of course, I've been losing all this time just to make you think that! Ushiromiya Battler, the man who loses strategically to win in the end! Ihihi!" "Uu-, Battler's incredible...! All my coins have disappeared again." "I'll give you some of mine. Let's crush Battler together, okay?!"With just a deck of cards, the cousins could enjoy themselves for many hours. They were so engrossed that the occasional thunderbolt hardly even registered as static in the background.  "I'm starting to get hungry. I wonder if dinner's ready yet." "Who knows. It should be ready soon. Gohda-san and the others really went all out for tonight." "Heheh, which means we've got a lot to look forward to. Is this to celebrate my long awaited return?" "I heard from Shannon just now that it's going to be a Halloween party. They'll set up a buffet in the hall. Sounds incredible." "A Halloween party?! Incredible, incredible, uu-uu-uu-!!" "Hmm? Yeah, who is it?"There was a knock, the door opened, and Ange was there. Ange had been sleeping in her parents' room.   "Umm, they said it's dinner, so we have to go to the mansion. They said to get ready." "Uu-uu-uu-!! Food, foo~d!! I'm hungry!!"Perhaps because she was the hungriest, Maria celebrated more vigorously than anyone else. She jumped up happily and hopped off the bed. As the others all clambered off the bed and started putting their shoes on, Kyrie and Rudolf came into view.   "It looks like today will be extra special. I can't wait to see." "Uu-!! I know! It's a Halloween party!" "...A Halloween party?" "KIhhihihihihi! I know, and Ange doesn't. Kihhihihihi." "Mom, what's a Halloween party?" "Who knows? We'll have to go and see for ourselves." "Everyone ready? It's about time to go." "Is everyone here? Please follow me." "Maria, over here. Your collar's crooked." "Ah, I'm starving. The food is the best part of these family conferences. Are you starving too, Ange-chan?"Eva smiled at Ange. "...Yeah. I'm starving." "Ange. That's 'I'm hungry', right?" "*giggle*. Don't worry about it. Yeah, I'll bet you're starving. My stomach's rumbling too." "Okay, let's get out of here. Looks like the wind's blowing hard outside. Make sure you don't lose your umbrellas." "Everyone, please take an umbrella." "Here's your umbrella, Ange-chan." "Thanks, Aunt Eva." "*giggle*. Ah, girls really are so cute. Come over to play at your aunt's house one of these days. It's a promise, okay?" "...It looks like Aunt Eva's taken a liking to Ange." "Yep. Apparently, Mother really wanted a daughter." "Ah, I've heard that too. I think she adored me too, when I was little." "My Mama said she really wanted a son, uu-!" "If your kid grows up happily, it doesn't matter if they're a boy or a girl. Maria is my precious, precious gift from God."When they got outside, the wind was fairly strong. Eva, who had now really hit it off with Ange, offered to share an umbrella with the little girl. It was hard to tell what they were chatting so excitedly about, but it seemed that they were already getting along splendidly. Battler opened his umbrella as he watched this. His little sister was cute when she clung to him, but she was just as cute and adorable when looking up at someone else with a happy smile. The wind and rain were strong, but even this must have been the perfect spice to heighten their anticipation of the coming meal...  BGM: Far The Ushiromiya family always took meals in the dining hall. This was the first time I'd ever seen a buffet-style party set up in the main hall.  "Beato!! Happy Halloween! Trick-or-treat...!!" "*cackle*cackle*. I have some candy for you, but now is not the time. After all, it's just before a meal." "*giggle*. Thank you, Beatrice-san. I see you're looking as beautiful as ever." "You too, Rosa! You certainly don't look old enough to be a mother. Wahaha!" "Have you been drinking? Your ears are looking pretty red there." "Hmm? Well, after you left, uhihi-! Kinzo said he'd bought this rare drink, so I couldn't help but sample a bit...! Wahahahahaha!" "And this coming from a person who tells little kids not to eat candy before a meal..." "Pardon me. Beatrice-sama, the Master is calling for you."I saw Kinzo beckoning from over by the portrait.  "Good grief. When it comes to ceremonies, that man is always so obsessed with form." "It's probably that stuff about a ceremony for the gold's return. This is a huge turning point for the Ushiromiya family. You'd better go and play along." "It does make one feel a bit lonely though." "This won't change the fact that you're the Ushiromiya family alchemist." "Perhaps. Then I'll be back shortly. See you later, okay? According to Genji, today's party has a bit of a theme to it. You'd better look forward to it...!" "You make it sound like you did any of the work." "Wahhahahaha, you're another one who obsesses too much over details...! Later!" It looked as though even Ange had picked up on that much. She seemed to be getting tense for no reason. "This is a special day, for the Ushiromiya family. But it doesn't have anything to do with you personally, so you should just relax." "Okay. Ah, that's right. Hey, hey, did you know? I just heard a huge secret from Aunt Eva...! Even Maria onee-chan doesn't know, but I'll tell you!" "Ooh? So, what's this secret?" "So, yeah! I heard that, if there's an almond in it, you win...!" "Win? Is this like a lottery or something?" "Hmmmmmmmmmm... Anyway, if you get an almond, you win!"Ange puffed out her cheeks. Apparently, she wanted to be praised for sharing this exciting secret. But just knowing that almonds win doesn't really explain much.  "Okay, got it. Thanks for letting me in on that major secret." "Nnnnnnn, you're mean, Onii-chan! And I even told you my secret!"Ange, her cheeks still puffed out, headed back to where Aunt Eva was. They really are getting along well. Well, I guess I have no problem if it's her aunt. If it was some guy from her class, I don't care if they're in elementary school, it's not happening! No playing with the opposite sex without Onii-chan's approval! At that moment, Genji-san's voice rang out. The chatter gradually subsided, and the rain outside once again became apparent.  BGM: White Shadow Silence filled the room. All of the relatives seemed vaguely aware that tonight's festivities consisted of more than a Halloween party. Battler already knew. This was a ceremony to mark the return of the gold, from Kinzo to Beatrice, which had been borrowed for so many years. First off, that fact was announced by Kinzo himself. He spoke of how this gold had not only restored the Ushiromiya family, but brought it to a level of wealth it had never before experienced. He spoke of how he would finally return this gold to Beatrice, the one who had saved the Ushiromiya family. Kinzo personally handed an ingot, decorated with a bright red ribbon, to Beatrice.  "...This is the debt we owe to three generations of Beatrice, the Golden Witch. The Ushiromiya family will never forget it." "Come now. If you've nowhere to put it, I'll be happy to take it off your hands." "...Beatrice-sama." "N, nnn, *cough*cough*."Hard to imagine that Beato taking Genji's warning so seriously. I couldn't help but laugh.   "...After many decades, since my grandmother's generation, the time has come for the eagle that lost one wing to fly once more. I will watch over that eagle, and I pray for its prosperity in all generations to come."Applause filled the hall. Though she'd just managed to make such a dignified speech, as soon as it was over, she stuck her tongue out and leered at us. I guess that's about the limit to how long Beato can stay serious.  "By passing her name on through the generations, Beatrice, the Golden Witch, may live for thousands of years. Therefore, even her descendants shall be Beatrice, and all shall be alchemists to this family. The descendants of the Ushiromiya family will praise Beatrice for her gratitude forevermore, and this will be passed on through the generations. This family will always be indebted to Beatrice, and she will always be our family, tied by a noble bond." "...Let those who agree show their recognition with their applause."After Genji's words, the relatives all looked at each other, then started applauding at once.  BGM: Engage of Marionette  "Wahaha, of course lending money is more important than being a blood relation." "...Beatrice-sama." "Nngyhh, nnn...!"After that, Kinzo's longwinded speech continued. Tonight, Kinzo would retire as the Ushiromiya family head. Then, he announced that he would reveal the distribution of his inheritance. A stir of excitement spread across the siblings in money trouble when they heard that they wouldn't have to wait for Kinzo's death to get their inheritance. "I am aware that each of you is in trouble with money. This should be enough to resolve all of those problems. But do not grow complacent. This is my inheritance, given to you before my death. In the past, though I have been strict, I have always watched over you. However, beginning tonight, your father will cease to provide support of that kind. I shall watch on as you take flight, as though watching down upon you from the heavens. No longer will I interfere. You may live however you please." "D, Dad..." "Father..." "We understand... You need have no fear... that we'll take flight on our own." "Here and now, all of us siblings swear to work together... to make the Ushiromiya family even more prosperous." "That's right...! If we stick together, nothin' can stand in our way...!"Hideyoshi laughed, but Genji admonished him. However, he could understand why they were so happy. So far, the siblings had quarreled ruthlessly over the inheritance. However, this evening, the inheritance had been neatly split apart, and they no longer had any need to scheme for money. In other words, the siblings no longer had any reason to squabble with each other anymore. On the contrary, this was a time for them to join hands and help each other become more and more prosperous. Eva and Rosa were sniffling, with tears in their eyes. And so was Rudolf. Perhaps now, even at their ages, they had finally left the nest.  It made Kinzo think. If only I had done this from the start... If he had settled the inheritance problem himself, there would have been no need for his children to quarrel at all. Instead, he had acted in a sullen manner and left the problem to them, which had resulted in their strained relationships to each other. Yes. It was all his responsibility. And now, the intertwining bonds had been released. It was as though an invisible rope had been wrapped around Kinzo's body. That rope was now gone, and he felt a sense of release he hadn't experienced for many years... The four siblings stepped forward, and before Kinzo, they swore to all support Krauss, the new head, and lead the family to greater prosperity. Their faces sparkled with an unexpected youthfulness. It was only natural. After all, none of the four had made such a natural promise since the time they were kids. As the vibrancy of their youth returned to them, the siblings made a promise once again. When Krauss finished his announcement, a friendly applause filled the hall. The cousins... and the servants too... joined in on the applause that continued on and on. Ange... watched this, dumbfounded. The four siblings were supposed to have quarreled with each other constantly since they were kids. And they were supposed to have pointlessly locked swords with Kinzo's inheritance as their goal, their worries over money spurring them on. Thanks to this ceremony, even the world of 'truth', the world I acknowledge, has been rewritten. Were they actually friendly towards each other, or did they quarrel all the time like I believe? It doesn't matter. Either way, right here, right now, all of those problems have been resolved. I mustn't believe. This is just... Onii-chan's farce. Even though I knew that fact, when I watched Dad and the others hugging each other, with teary smiles on their faces, I couldn't help but feel something warm welling up in my eyes.  "What will you have to see... what will you have to hear... before you'll let yourself believe...?" "...Red. If you say it with the red truth..." "Is everything you can't say in red a lie?" "...I won't believe... This is... just..."Ange looked at the floor and fell silent. As the Game Master, Battler was able to use the red truth. However, that rule only exists on the witch's game board.  People see things, hear things, and when they believe that something is worth believing, they accept it as a red truth. Unless Ange accepts it, no kind of truth can become truth. Battler wanted her to realize this. There was no point in using the red truth, a rule of this game, to force the truth on her. Ange would have to use her own power, her own heart... To accept the truth as truth. The decision was Ange's. No one could force her to decide either way. So, there was nothing wrong with Ange declaring this scene to be a farce. But, if so, then what about the hot tears dripping down Ange's face? Ange would have to think of that herself, without anyone telling her... After one sniffle and a rub of her eyes, Ange let the six-year-old version of her take control of her piece.  BGM: In the Sun Beautifully adorned dishes were brought in one after another, and champagne corks were loosened with pleasant sounds. Several small tables were set here and there, each with its own theme. That was where the fun lay in this stand-up buffet party, as the guests wandered from table to table, pondering what they should eat first. This sort of performance was where Gohda's genius shone through. The hotel that let him go should probably regret ever having done so. Of course, a stand-up buffet would probably be a tiring affair for the middle-aged. So, chairs had been set up as well. However, each time a new dish was brought into the hall, they could get up to look, and wander the tables however they pleased. This way, they could each bump into a new group of people, then mingle elsewhere when that group melted apart. People are interesting. As the members in each group changed, so did the topic of conversation. The bustling Halloween party played out like a colorful kaleidoscope. The origami chains decorating the walls recalled one to one's youth. They would make anyone enjoy themselves as they did when they were kids... Even to Ange, it was like a dream. She chatted happily with her cousins. She also chatted with her aunts and uncles. Beato showed her several tricks that she called magic. Maria said they were magic, Ange said they were tricks, and the night grew even more lively. The two young girls were so fired up that the adults decided to show some tricks they knew, shocking both of the kids utterly. Eventually, they each started showing tricks to the others, asking if they'd ever seen this one or that one before, and it became a party of magic, just perfect for Halloween. In addition to magic tricks, several quizzes, riddles and games popped up, reminding everyone of their childhood days. Even the servants who were serving food got dragged into the groups, and the whole hall was filled with chatter. To Ange, young as she was, every single magic trick, quiz, and riddle was an entirely new experience. They stimulated her intellectual curiosity, and she couldn't contain her excitement. Add in the wide variety of delicious foods and drinks she could choose from, and it was like being in a dream. Ange felt a floaty sensation, as though she was walking on a cloud...   "...I wanted to try some adult grape juice too. So it's okay." "Your face is looking a little red there. Are you feeling okay?" "She only had a bit, so I think she'll be fine..." "...I'll be fine. I'm not a kid... *hic*..." "*giggle*. Ange-chan, drink this one, okay? Your Dad's drinking a bad drink, so don't try any more, got it?" "That's right! If you drink bad stuff, you'll end up as a bad adult too. Ihihi!" "I'm not gonna be a bad adult! I'm gonna be a princess!" "That's right. Ange is a princess to all of us." "Yep. Ange's this family's princess." "I agree. You'd better come over to my house to play sometime...! We'll have lots of fun!" "Okay. Thanks, Aunt Eva...!"Everyone's being really nice. It almost feels like I've become a real princess. I feel so great, I could almost believe that this whole celebration was being held for my sake. Battler stood outside that group of people. As he watched Ange smiling happily from the distance, he smiled too.  "I agree. It really is a smile fit for an angel." "I hope that smile belongs to the real Ange... and not just the piece." "...Even if it doesn't, she is watching this. And she can think it through herself." "This game between you and Ange really is overflowing with affection. For me, it's almost irritating." "And what's wrong with that? No one to get in her way. No obstacles or tactics or anything else to worry about." "That's right. This game... is no longer a battle." "Now that you mention it, this is cleaning up. Cleaning up after our game." "...I will never be able to make up for the sin I did to her through my careless actions." "Our game was responsible. We'll make up for our sins together. That's why we're showing Ange this final game." "Do you think... that Ange will be able to use that key the right way...?" "...Of course, I've thought about forcibly dragging her in the way we think is right." "Such an attempt may have been meaningless. As long as life is, it is hard to accept that a decision you were forced into was truly the correct one." "Exactly. Ange must think and choose by herself. Even if she doesn't make the decision we view as the correct one, I think we should respect it." "...Hmmm. You are the Game Master. I cannot argue with you anymore. I will simply watch on and enjoy this night." "This game is very significant for Ange. But for us, it's kind of like a party after the show." "It's almost time. But are you sure? Ange might get the wrong idea again, right?" "It'll be fine. In fact, this is necessary. Just like how you appeared in the way you did. And everyone else too."
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Sep 29, 2017 13:30
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Banquet Alliance Turn Twilight Legend End Requiem Dawn 
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Sep 29, 2017 14:18
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ProfessorProf posted:
Just keep telling yourself that, Battler. 
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Sep 29, 2017 14:26
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I don't see how this doesn't end with everyone blowing up again. And finally, the purpose of the game has been made explicit, for those who don't get it yet. Though, I will admit I chuckled when I realized that it could be construed to say "don't be Erika".
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Sep 29, 2017 14:33
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Battler gets a D, for "don't."
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Sep 29, 2017 15:02
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Yeah, Battler... "don't." I get what you mean to do here, and it's a sweet idea, but... it has a better chance of working on literally anyone else but Ange. She might have been six when you left her, but she isn't six anymore, however you (or she) might wish it, but... well, not quite a grown-rear end woman, but someone who's had a greater breadth of experience in certain things than Battler ever had. (Namely, abuse, corporate espionage and a maternal aunt who wants to kill her- how many genuine Yakuza have you dodged on your way to school, Onii-chan?) And even if she didn't... well, belief for an eighteen year old is different than belief for a child, and must be addressed differently, or terrible things happen, even if there weren't genuine depression or suicidal thoughts to contend with. This is going to blow up in your face as surely as the real island did, Battler. And the particularly frustrating thing- the part that prevents me from embracing this story as a real thing that's happening and not some metaphor for the things happening in Ange's psyche- is that there is somebody nearby who can address all of the problems with this scenario greater than you can, lost big brother or not.
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Sep 29, 2017 15:57
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idonotlikepeas posted:It's also possible that what Battler is saying here is just the unadorned truth. Maybe Kinzo liked to hang out with his grandkids and generally wasn't a bad grandfather, and mostly stopped being an rear end in a top hat to his family in his old age except when occasional flareups of madness would happen. Remember, Kinzo was dead at the start of this story, so his character was whatever Krauss and Natsuhi wanted it to be. The view we have of Kinzo is filtered through at least three other people at all times; them, the storyteller, and Ange. And our point of view is heavily biased by the evil and insane things we know that he did, which wouldn't necessarily inform his relationship with his (acknowledged) grandchildren at all. He's definitely suggesting the possibility, if not the actuality. This makes me think of something sorta similar with my late grandfather. He beat my dad as a child, and at some point later in life mellowed out and showed remorse for his actions when he was younger. So, from my point of view as his grandchild, he was always a friendly person to be around and a good grandparent, but my dad was never able to change his perception due to what was done to him when he was younger. It's possible something sorta similar might have happened with the Ushiromiyas. I mean, I doubt that Kinzo actually showed much remorse for being a terrible parent and was probably still an rear end in a top hat, but it's possible that the Ushiromiya siblings' experiences with him basically made it impossible for them to accept him regardless of if/how he changed later in life. Yasu would naturally have her attitude shaped in a similar way, though in her case more due to knowledge of Kinzo's actions than his specific treatment of her (which was apparently quite good, what with showing her his guns and stuff).
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Sep 29, 2017 16:52
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ProfessorProf posted:
This feels like the first time in the past several games that the narrative -- and possibly the first time ever for Beato -- has acknowledge that no matter how lovely your life was, killing 14 people then yourself isn't OK. Or even just assembling a bunch of guns, a mountain of gold, and 900 tons of explosives and putting them in front of a bunch of high-stress people with a history of tormenting one another and saying "have at it" is a grossly irresponsible thing to do.
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Sep 29, 2017 17:12
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tiistai posted:Banquet
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Sep 29, 2017 18:23
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Amidiri posted:Also like, as stated, our current Beato as far as we've seen interacted with Kinzo only once, and that was when he wailed sorry at her a lot and then died. So like... she, personally, has no reason to resent or detest him. (Her mother does, if the other stories we were told are correct, but her mother is dead and not interacting with Kinzo in a positive way in this episode anyway). It is heavily implied (maybe explicitly stated in Episode 6) that Yasu spent a decent amount of time with Kinzo, who suspected her of being his child for a while before she actually solved the epitaph. She learned how to shoot the guns from him, for example. I think Kanon mentions Kinzo teaching him to shoot and making jokes this during his whole scene near the end of EP6. Her mixed feelings towards Kinzo are probably largely a result of the contrast between her knowledge of his crimes and his relatively kind treatment towards her as a servant (due to him strongly suspecting her origins). resurgam40 posted:(who probably did find out what happened to their mother, as I've always feared... that's what I've always thought the freak-out at Shannon concerning "men are flies and maggots" that they made was about) That line almost certainly refers to Yasu's own feelings regarding her inability to physically "love" and how she believes George (or other men) would react to her body. In general, Beato's more emotional reactions to things are generally based on Yasu's own experiences, not the "inherited" history of her mother/grandmother.
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Sep 29, 2017 19:06
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Ytlaya posted:This makes me think of something sorta similar with my late grandfather. He beat my dad as a child, and at some point later in life mellowed out and showed remorse for his actions when he was younger. So, from my point of view as his grandchild, he was always a friendly person to be around and a good grandparent, but my dad was never able to change his perception due to what was done to him when he was younger. It's possible something sorta similar might have happened with the Ushiromiyas. I mean, I doubt that Kinzo actually showed much remorse for being a terrible parent and was probably still an rear end in a top hat, but it's possible that the Ushiromiya siblings' experiences with him basically made it impossible for them to accept him regardless of if/how he changed later in life. Yasu would naturally have her attitude shaped in a similar way, though in her case more due to knowledge of Kinzo's actions than his specific treatment of her (which was apparently quite good, what with showing her his guns and stuff). But, that's why the way Kinzo is interacting with his grandkids in this game rings totally true to me.
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Sep 29, 2017 19:12
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Alright, I've got to say something or it won't stop digging at me. To everyone who insists on referring to Yasu (not Shannon or Beatrice) with she/her: Stop it. The only difference between Lion and Yasu, gender-wise, is a lie Genji told, probably as much to keep them hidden from Natsushi/Kinzo as because of their injuries. The only time any version of Yasu has weighed in on their gender was as Lion, who's stated gender is "stop asking." When a person's gender is unknown or unclear, the proper, respectful thing is to use gender-neutral pronouns until that person tells you otherwise. And since all second or third-person pronouns are gender neutral in Japanese, this probably wasn't even something the author would have thought of. The handling of the gender aspects of Yasu are pretty weak in general because of R07's own ignorance, but just because he was ignorant doesn't mean you have to be. I don't even understand the justification for referring to Yasu as she. Because Shannon and Beato appear first? That logic would lead someone to refer to all trans people as the gender they were assigned at birth, which is why this gets my hackles up so.
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Sep 29, 2017 21:06
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I understand where you're coming from. I personally have no clue what Yasu identifies as so I've just been using 'they' to refer to the main person behind the multiple personalities. I think the practice of calling Yasu by female pronouns comes down to Shannon and Beatrice seeming like they're Yasu's most important personalities. Also some folks know already that Yasu's gender identification has been kept intentionally vague on purpose, but still fall occasionally to cultural habit of using gendered terms (it happened to me sometimes, I apologize) since this sort of thing is new to many. So pretty much I'm not blaming active malice, instead just folks being used to a strict female-male binary culture (speaking of which, I'm really proud of Swedish, and other such languages that adopted gender-neutral pronouns to help break out of strict binary mindsets). I'll try to make sure that I don't mess up and accidentally misidentify Yasu, my bad.tiistai posted:Banquet Battler Dies (At the End).
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Sep 29, 2017 21:43
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Off-topic question because it's been driving me nuts, but do you deliberately misspell Natsuhi's name, ZiegeDame? I've got no problems with it, it's just been setting my internal spell check off.
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Sep 29, 2017 22:17
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I've just been conscientiously not using pronouns for Yasu at all, since I strongly dislike the singular 'they' to refer to specific individual human beings but, as a cis-person, don't feel entitled to go around pushing my preference for adopting some new, unique word that we can all live with. (I do, of course, call people 'they' whom I know have explicitly requested it, I just strive to avoid it as a default.)
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Sep 29, 2017 22:18
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Rune Full Moon posted:Off-topic question because it's been driving me nuts, but do you deliberately misspell Natsuhi's name, ZiegeDame? I've got no problems with it, it's just been setting my internal spell check off.  I have something like low-level dyslexia that causes me to mentally transpose letters sometimes, most often with words ending in -el/-le. Sometimes my brain will finish a word without actually reading it. I literally did not realize there was only one 's' in her name until you pointed it out.
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Sep 29, 2017 22:32
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The Natsushi conundrum only lends more weight to Kumasaba being the true mastermind pulling the strings behind Rokkenjima.Confused Llama posted:I've just been conscientiously not using pronouns for Yasu at all, since I strongly dislike the singular 'they' to refer to specific individual human beings but, as a cis-person, don't feel entitled to go around pushing my preference for adopting some new, unique word that we can all live with. (I do, of course, call people 'they' whom I know have explicitly requested it, I just strive to avoid it as a default.) If it helps, know that singular they has been a thing in recorded English since at least the 1400s, but not using pronouns at all is honestly a pretty good way of handling things as well.
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Sep 29, 2017 22:47
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Natsuhi vs Natsushi is like the Berenstain bears of Umineko.
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Sep 29, 2017 22:55
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EagerSleeper posted:If it helps, know that singular they has been a thing in recorded English since at least the 1400s Yes, but when you're talking about a nonspecific person (and honestly, I would still prefer that we had a good singular gender-neutral pronoun that could be used in those cases to avoid the potential for ambiguity). I find the singular they to be very awkward when used for "that specific non-plural entity standing right there." Of course, I also gladly acknowledge that in the specific case of Yasu/Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice, that's perhaps kind of a silly hill on which to choose to die.
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Sep 29, 2017 22:58
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ZiegeDame posted:Alright, I've got to say something or it won't stop digging at me. To everyone who insists on referring to Yasu (not Shannon or Beatrice) with she/her: Stop it. The only difference between Lion and Yasu, gender-wise, is a lie Genji told, probably as much to keep them hidden from Natsushi/Kinzo as because of their injuries. The only time any version of Yasu has weighed in on their gender was as Lion, who's stated gender is "stop asking." When a person's gender is unknown or unclear, the proper, respectful thing is to use gender-neutral pronouns until that person tells you otherwise. And since all second or third-person pronouns are gender neutral in Japanese, this probably wasn't even something the author would have thought of. The handling of the gender aspects of Yasu are pretty weak in general because of R07's own ignorance, but just because he was ignorant doesn't mean you have to be. Yeah, I know she/her isn't accurate but I keep slipping up due to my own personal interpretations that cannot be countered due to them being fictional. Will try harder in the future.
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Sep 29, 2017 23:46
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Some part of the commonly seen pronoun choice might be that most of the community that isn't trying to make fun of Sayo uses she instead of he. There are scenes (more explicitly in the manga) that many interpret to mean that Sayo leaned towards being a girl, such as her believing to be in fact a girl until in puberty she started realizing that reality didn't quite match the expectations. As we've seen that didn't end too happily for anyone, people or furniture. There's no reason to argue against using they but at the same time I feel there's enough subtext that I wouldn't blame anyone for using she either.
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Sep 30, 2017 00:18
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tiistai posted:such as her believing to be in fact a girl until in puberty she started realizing that reality didn't quite match the expectations. You realize this is a common experience for a lot of trans people, right? And that all too often it doesn't have a happy ending? Do you understand why I think what you just wrote is so supremely hosed up?
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Sep 30, 2017 00:37
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ZiegeDame posted:You realize this is a common experience for a lot of trans people, right? And that all too often it doesn't have a happy ending? Do you understand why I think what you just wrote is so supremely hosed up? No not at all. Also just going to say it from what I know Sayo heavily identifies as female. Lion is more or less a different person entirely including personality and how they view themself.
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Sep 30, 2017 00:54
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MonsterEnvy posted:Also just going to say it from what I know Sayo heavily identifies as female. Then why does Kanon exist?
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Sep 30, 2017 00:59
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ZiegeDame posted:Then why does Kanon exist? I'm not saying that this is the only interpretation. I'm not saying that being pushed off a cliff and the resulting gender reassignment surgery made Sayo (distinct here from Yasu, who I see as a more gender neutral name for the central person here) a trans woman. I'm saying she was always going to be trans, and coincidentally then got pushed off a cliff, and that maybe environmental factors swayed her more towards being a trans woman rather than non binary. That's my interpretation and that's why I use she/her for her, but if that interpretation really upsets people in this thread I will use they/them, even if that upsets me because I feel like I'm misgendering Sayo. EDIT: It just kind of upsets me that Kanon is used as a 'gotcha' because, like, it's not like trans people never experiment with gender presentations that end up not fitting them. that's actually pretty common from what I understand. Gender is complicated and there's not one right way of being trans, and I feel like the people who interpret her as a trans woman and the people who interpret them as non binary are kind of arguing sometimes over 'what kind of trans person' they are, when it's not something that is explicitly stated in the text and as such it's left up to interpretation. I don't think they/them is misgendering Yasu, but I don't think she/her is either. Everyone here acknowledges the complexity involved and nobody is trying to be rude to trans people, but there's not a monolithic experience. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Sep 30, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 03:29
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