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LinYutang posted:soldiers insulting the civilian government isn't great Hey, I'll have you know that republican soldiers posting on message boards featuring Obama effigies burning and jokes about killing liberals is the highest form of patriotism.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:19
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Potato Salad posted:Hey, I'll have you know that republican soldiers posting on message boards featuring Obama effigies burning and jokes about killing liberals is the highest form of patriotism. And you did, in fact, get into trouble for it if you did it while identifying yourself as a soldier.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:24
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I'm at physical therapy and there's a fat teenager with a socialism sucks shirt.
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Sep 27, 2017 21:04
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cenotaph posted:I'm at physical therapy and there's a fat teenager with a socialism sucks shirt. tell him that under socialism he would be skinny
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Sep 27, 2017 21:05
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Serf posted:tell him that under socialism he would be skinny hahaha
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Sep 27, 2017 21:13
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LinYutang posted:same except Bernie over Hillary You have discovered the secret of why I write in all electoral positions as Vermin Supreme.
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Sep 27, 2017 21:28
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Update which will surprise no one: he was a football player doing post-concussion treatment.
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Sep 27, 2017 21:55
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Larry Parrish posted:This soldier hate smacks of trotskyism I don't think the guy who literally founded the red army hate soldiers idk
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Sep 27, 2017 22:04
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Venom Snake posted:I don't think the guy who literally founded the red army hate soldiers idk he hated them for their freedoms their many freedoms in the tsarist army
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Sep 27, 2017 22:12
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To be honest it doesn't seem like an ideology thing, at least not drawn from any theory I'm aware of, and I still don't exactly understand why excluding active duty soldiers who wish to join socialist causes helps advance either socialism or anti-imperialism. I mean, I 100% abhor any celebration of the military or servicemembers for that service. I don't want to cultivate the same veneration for "veterans" either that a lot of people in politics seem to aim for. But a lot of people say that being active duty and a member of a socialist org or movement is incompatible, and while they spend a lot of time explaining to me why America's Empire is bad (something I already know), I still don't understand why the individuals subjected to it should be excluded. It's not even a "we can disrupt them from the inside" thing for me. I just don't see why any folks should be excluded from membership for that affiliation. Being an member of like, the FBI, cops, or the CIA? That's a bit different because it has a direct correlation to opsec issues. But like this was my thing with Danny too, I didn't really have much problem with him at all until he went full nude and mad. So long as everyone is open about their affiliations and where they are coming from, especially if you are interested in leadership or putting yourself out as a spokesperson. Tricky Dick Nixon has issued a correction as of 22:22 on Sep 27, 2017 |
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Sep 27, 2017 22:20
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cenotaph posted:Update which will surprise no one: he was a football player doing post-concussion treatment. support our football troopers
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Sep 27, 2017 22:21
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i also haven't heard what "standing united with the third world against imperialism" means other than being staunchly anti-war. individual soldiers don't have any effect on that. i agree that we should keep general mattis out of the DSA though
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Sep 27, 2017 22:22
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Phi230 posted:blaming the individual soldier for imperialism is dumb as hell anyway nobody is doing any of that
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Sep 27, 2017 22:56
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R. Guyovich posted:nobody is doing any of that I am.  Spenser Rapone did 9/11.
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Sep 27, 2017 23:05
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The only people who seem mad about this are extremely online edgelords who mostly aren't a part of the DSA anyway. Everyone else is kind of like "Well, the actual work of an active duty soldier in the US military isn't really compatible with socialism, but if this guy's sincere in his belief and not hiding his past, whatever."
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Sep 27, 2017 23:05
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hypothetically, what would you all think about a drone operator being in dsa? like drone strikes by day but state and local working group by night?
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Sep 27, 2017 23:07
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Tricky Dick Nixon posted:To be honest it doesn't seem like an ideology thing, at least not drawn from any theory I'm aware of, and I still don't exactly understand why excluding active duty soldiers who wish to join socialist causes helps advance either socialism or anti-imperialism. I mean, I 100% abhor any celebration of the military or servicemembers for that service. I don't want to cultivate the same veneration for "veterans" either that a lot of people in politics seem to aim for. But a lot of people say that being active duty and a member of a socialist org or movement is incompatible, and while they spend a lot of time explaining to me why America's Empire is bad (something I already know), I still don't understand why the individuals subjected to it should be excluded. well there's little point in making active duty full fledged members right away for practical reasons: i.e. they would get kicked out immediately if it became public and if you're posted abroad then "organizing on duty" won't be any different from what you'd be doing anyway. if you're thousands of miles from the us then your organizing will consist of conversations with the people around you and it makes little difference whether you do that with a membership card or without one veterans' arms of orgs like psl have feelers in the military but don't make people full members until they're out afaik. i'm not in psl so i don't know for sure (and if i did couldn't confirm either way publicly) and again, it's a different story for officers. i'd imagine orgs deal with that stuff on a case by case basis anyway the point is if you're a Troop and serious about socialist organizing you don't make your affiliations obvious until you're out of the system, to avoid disciplinary risks first and foremost
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Sep 27, 2017 23:07
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Serf posted:tell him that under socialism he would be skinny redistribution of health
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Sep 27, 2017 23:54
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the most important chapter is the colorado springs chapter as they are in the best position to turn the airforce from an evangelical nuclear death cult to a communist nuclear death cult imo
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Sep 27, 2017 23:56
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R. Guyovich posted:well there's little point in making active duty full fledged members right away for practical reasons: i.e. they would get kicked out immediately if it became public and if you're posted abroad then "organizing on duty" won't be any different from what you'd be doing anyway. if you're thousands of miles from the us then your organizing will consist of conversations with the people around you and it makes little difference whether you do that with a membership card or without one BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 00:07 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 00:04
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jarofpiss posted:hypothetically, what would you all think about a drone operator being in dsa? like drone strikes by day but state and local working group by night? this is a pretty good thought exercise if only because it honestly is a legit question about the role of police/military in socialist orgs and there is a lot of nuance there, it's not something you can meme or shitpost to arrive at an acceptable solution. for example, I oppose cops being in my organization but thats specifically because the material conditions of being a cop in america would put their job/position which they depend upon to survive in direct opposition to our goals as a socialist org in some cases and thats a hard ask. that being said, I think empty slogans about how the police are evil and bad and whatever else are damaging because ideally there are police officers who would break ranks in the right circumstances and we dont want to alienate them or people who might be close to police as family or friends who would be alienated. basically there should be internal debate about such issues but a public face that doesnt engage in language that is needlessly alienating. thats not saying we shouldnt criticize the police for the horrible poo poo they do, but we should make that argument on the basis of stuff like we should have community and democratic control of the police, not completely disband the local police department. the former is a slogan and goal that is relateable and within the realm of most people's imagination, the other is divorced from most peoples lived experience. thats dialectics in action.
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Sep 28, 2017 00:04
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apropos to nothing posted:completely disband the local police department that's absolutely what needs to happen, and what replaces the police as far as emergency response can't have anyone who was previously a police officer as a member
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Sep 28, 2017 00:06
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Press F to lose respect.
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Sep 28, 2017 00:13
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Yandat posted:that's absolutely what needs to happen, and what replaces the police as far as emergency response can't have anyone who was previously a police officer as a member I'm just curious, do you honestly think you can mobilize an entire community behind this idea? do you think that the vast majority of people are going to join your organization or organize with you towards this goal? the problem with such a program is that to accomplish it you basically need to have a revolution. if we could ginny up a revolution right now then yeah of course we could abolish the police and also abolish capital. but a revolution isn't ready made, it's something that has to be built towards by engaging people in class struggle. yeah democratic control of the police isn't the 100% fix for societies problems but its an achievable goal that requires mass mobilization and in fighting for this demand, people learn how to engage in class struggle effectively and what form it takes which means they are now prepared to engage in struggle later for things like abolishing the police.
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Sep 28, 2017 00:21
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apropos to nothing posted:I'm just curious, do you honestly think you can mobilize an entire community behind this idea? do you think that the vast majority of people are going to join your organization or organize with you towards this goal? the problem with such a program is that to accomplish it you basically need to have a revolution. if we could ginny up a revolution right now then yeah of course we could abolish the police and also abolish capital. but a revolution isn't ready made, it's something that has to be built towards by engaging people in class struggle. yeah democratic control of the police isn't the 100% fix for societies problems but its an achievable goal that requires mass mobilization and in fighting for this demand, people learn how to engage in class struggle effectively and what form it takes which means they are now prepared to engage in struggle later for things like abolishing the police. the DSA agreed to a resolution to abolish the police. no i don't think that abolishing the police is a realistic short term goal. i also don't think "abolish the police" is an empty slogan but something that will absolutely need to happen for a better society to be built during the transition to communism the police aren't popular with the people we need to be recruiting and i don't see a lot of active duty police officers so far. the single police organizer so far got pressured out
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Sep 28, 2017 00:27
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apropos to nothing posted:I'm just curious, do you honestly think you can mobilize an entire community behind this idea? And by community I mean a country of 300 million people who just elected Donald Trump
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Sep 28, 2017 00:28
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Baron Porkface posted:And by community I mean a country of 300 million people who just elected Donald Trump there are maximalist and minimalist demands, reform and revolution. in either case I don't think we need to go out of our way to offer an olive branch to the cops
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Sep 28, 2017 00:29
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Baron Porkface posted:And by community I mean a country of 300 million people who just elected Donald Trump lol using the US presidential election system as an index of public opinion.
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Sep 28, 2017 00:35
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Baron Porkface posted:And by community I mean a country of 300 million people who just elected Donald Trump the plurality of american people dont vote.
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Sep 28, 2017 00:38
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no ones talking about an olive branch to police. I made the point that we shouldnt needlessly alienate police or individuals who might in some cases be sympathetic to them. the larger point I made is that "abolish the police" is a difficult goal to realistically work towards. I'm not saying it's bad to want it, but if you can't take real and measurable steps to achieve it then it does become just a slogan. effective slogans should bridge the gap between raising consciousness as well as functioning as a call to action. thats not a criticism of the DSA position related to the vote yall had on making abolish the police a policy point or whatever, but it is a criticism of anyone who puts forward a slogan like abolish the police without having clear, and workable steps to achieve it. in the same way that fully automated luxury gay space communism is a fun meme and yeah you can sell buttons that say it to people when tabling, but as far as a serious slogan that will attract people who are looking to seriously tackle the issues and struggles facing their community, it's meaningless and you better have some ideas, slogans, and program that do resonate with people on those points in addition to the fun memes.
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Sep 28, 2017 00:39
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"abolish the police" / anti-police sentiment is not at all comparable to fully automated luxury gay space communism in any reality comrade. you're talking about slogans, I'm talking about how much cops are the front line of the everyday nightmare of state oppression
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Sep 28, 2017 00:42
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safely sodomized posted:im going to interpret this as glenn talking about ftfy
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Sep 28, 2017 00:46
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I recognize they're different, and I'll admit that it was wrong for me to even compare the two as like you point out, one is just a joke while police violence is a real and serious problem facing the working class. a better example might be calling for complete workers control of wal-mart. thats something we all would want to see, but the reality is that the vast majority of wal-mart workers aren't even unionized. you ask the majority of wal-mart workers to rise up and take over the wal mart they wont. you work with them patiently to help them build a strong union, then you've laid a brick in preparation for the former. similarly, you table and canvass for abolishing the police and yeah you will find some people who are down for that but not enough to make any meaningful steps in that direction. you table and canvas for democratic control of the police instead and you've presented a program that still should appeal to those same people while also reaching others who might not be as class conscious or politically aware, but can be made so through common struggle.
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Sep 28, 2017 00:48
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basically the larger point I'm trying to make is that socialists shouldnt be working to convince other socialists about how socialism is good, they should be working to convince non-socialists to become socialists. that principle should still apply when we consider the specific issue we were talking about regarding military service people and police. they're not the same obviously but they both produce interesting challenges for socialists in terms of how to engage with them while sticking to that general idea of always trying to convince more people of our ideas.
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Sep 28, 2017 00:51
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apropos to nothing posted:I recognize they're different, and I'll admit that it was wrong for me to even compare the two as like you point out, one is just a joke while police violence is a real and serious problem facing the working class. a better example might be calling for complete workers control of wal-mart. thats something we all would want to see, but the reality is that the vast majority of wal-mart workers aren't even unionized. you ask the majority of wal-mart workers to rise up and take over the wal mart they wont. you work with them patiently to help them build a strong union, then you've laid a brick in preparation for the former. similarly, you table and canvass for abolishing the police and yeah you will find some people who are down for that but not enough to make any meaningful steps in that direction. you table and canvas for democratic control of the police instead and you've presented a program that still should appeal to those same people while also reaching others who might not be as class conscious or politically aware, but can be made so through common struggle. the police question will resolve itself once the first part of this (wal-mart coming under worker's control) tries to work itself out. it will become very moot
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Sep 28, 2017 00:51
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apropos to nothing posted:there are police officers who would break ranks in the right circumstances and we dont want to alienate them or people who might be close to police as family or friends who would be alienated. the literal exact argument that nazi defenders make
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Sep 28, 2017 01:08
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:the military allows soldiers to join political clubs. that shouldn't be a problem. what they don't like is the intermingling of those organizations with the uniform and any implied endorsement on the military's part. but you shouldn't have any issues joining DSA and attending meetings (not in uniform). basically, when you're in a uniform you're now a representative of the united states of jesus' armed forces and your rear end belongs to uncle sam, and the army, air force, marines or navy depending. i know. i was referring to political parties like psl
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Sep 28, 2017 01:50
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apropos to nothing posted:I'm just curious, do you honestly think you can mobilize an entire community behind this idea? do you think that the vast majority of people are going to join your organization or organize with you towards this goal? if we're talking nonwhites (which we should be, always), yes
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Sep 28, 2017 02:20
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call to action posted:the literal exact argument that nazi defenders make lol ive been doxxed by nazis, had cops try to arrest friends and allies for being attacked by nazis, watched cops stand idle while nazis surrounded protests I've been at, and been alone surrounded by white supremacists in body armor with guns when ive gone to protests early to scout out whats going on to see if its safe. all im saying is that it pays to be strategic in how you agitate
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Sep 28, 2017 02:28
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bored now
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Sep 28, 2017 02:50
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