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Out of curiosity: what units do other people consider bad in Shogun 2? Personally never really got a use out of: most siege engines (rockets and cannons are kinda okay), ninja (lose to everything, stealth doesn't seem terribly useful), and katana cav (lose hard to other cav and aren't that much better against infantry). Yari samurai aren't great but are okay for aggressive players because they're way faster than naginatas. Haven't really messed around with the special units as much, but Oda, Otomo, and Chosokabe seem to have good ones
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Sep 27, 2017 23:41
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StashAugustine posted:Out of curiosity: what units do other people consider bad in Shogun 2? Personally never really got a use out of: most siege engines (rockets and cannons are kinda okay), ninja (lose to everything, stealth doesn't seem terribly useful), and katana cav (lose hard to other cav and aren't that much better against infantry). Yari samurai aren't great but are okay for aggressive players because they're way faster than naginatas. Haven't really messed around with the special units as much, but Oda, Otomo, and Chosokabe seem to have good ones Only ninja kinda suck to me. Katana cav are best for sieges. Dismount them and infiltrate at speed from an unguarded flank, capture the gates with strong infantry and then re-mount and enter the fort with great anti-infantry cav.
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Sep 27, 2017 23:51
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I never feel like I get my money's worth out of matchlock ashigaru in field battles. On siege defense, they're a bargain at twice the price.
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Sep 27, 2017 23:58
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Ninja are the interesting one, because they feel like they ought to be good but I've never been able to use their strengths. I wonder if giving them 2 HP like the assassins in M2 would be broken
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Sep 28, 2017 00:05
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Ninjas were only good in MP when you would deploy them in the middle of the map hidden and waited for the enemy army to walk past and throw all your grenades and rush the gently caress out of them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4o-KordFCg
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Sep 28, 2017 00:12
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I sometimes use a single unit of ninjas to take out the out of the way empty castles with just a couple of samurai retainers or whatever in them while the rest of my army does more important stuff, but that's the only sort of actual use I have for them. I use them a lot because they're fun though, even if they tend to have a 100% mortality rate every single battle. I pretty much use every unit though, it's one of the strengths of Shogun 2- even in the late game, pretty much everything has a utility. I guess I agree that the mangonels are pretty worthless, by the time you unlock them you'd normally be able to use a cannon instead, at least in my experience.
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Sep 28, 2017 00:16
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Nothing will be as fun or funny as Shogun 1's Kensai unit. It can destroy an entire army by itself. I think the only way to actually kill the unit was to focus fire it with all your archer units and hope for the best. And the Geisha. The AI never knew how to deal with those lord killers either.
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Sep 28, 2017 00:54
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StashAugustine posted:Out of curiosity: what units do other people consider bad in Shogun 2? Personally never really got a use out of: most siege engines (rockets and cannons are kinda okay), ninja (lose to everything, stealth doesn't seem terribly useful), and katana cav (lose hard to other cav and aren't that much better against infantry). Yari samurai aren't great but are okay for aggressive players because they're way faster than naginatas. Haven't really messed around with the special units as much, but Oda, Otomo, and Chosokabe seem to have good ones Siege units generally suck but rockets obliterate cavalry so they're great for assassinating generals. Hero units are terrible for their cost, especially the missile heroes since their small numbers make their volleys impotent. Yari sams kinda suck in the sense that they're a jack-of-all-trades unit in a game designed for rock-paper-scissors combat. They don't fulfill a specific role another unit is already better at: they can't grind down most infantry units like katana sams can, they don't have the staying power of naginatas, they're not as cost-effective a spear/frontline unit as yari ashigaru (while also lacking their spear wall ability), and their sprint ability is pretty situational. They're not completely useless but I generally never use them aside from the one unit you start campaigns with.
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Sep 28, 2017 01:01
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I've hear yari are okay for hattori and other hyperaggressive factions, because they're a lot faster than naginatas so you want them to be able to keep up with your infantry. Better charge bonus too IIRC. Never used heroes, are they actually bad or just really inefficient?
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Sep 28, 2017 01:03
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Kinda depends on what era you're playing but it's mostly inefficiency. Vanilla hero units have super high armor and morale and the infantry heroes can grind down multiple regular units but their sheer cost means your better off filling those army slots with more cost-effective options. It's been a while since I've played Rise of the Samurai but I remember the heroes being a little more useful there because units in general are much smaller and have lower morale overall. The absolute worst is the sole Fall of the Samurai hero, a tiny, buffed up bow cav unit in a game full of modern rifles and artillery.
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Sep 28, 2017 01:29
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nopantsjack posted:The WH AI is much more competent but kinda too cheesy, its better than Attila's completely broken AI where the AI just never ever attacks you or even tries to play the game, but in WH the AI just will never engage if they don't have the advantage. Did they fix the issue of the AI razing a town then force marching away? Something you the player can't do because razing uses all your action points.
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Sep 28, 2017 01:57
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Tenzarin posted:Did they fix the issue of the AI razing a town then force marching away? Something you the player can't do because razing uses all your action points. As far as I know the ai can force March and basically do whatever it wants in the same turn They also will NEVER meet you in the field unless they have a stronger force and legit the only way to get them to is by spamming ambush next to a bait stack
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Sep 28, 2017 02:05
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nopantsjack posted:They also will NEVER meet you in the field unless they have a stronger force and legit the only way to get them to is by spamming ambush next to a bait stack You can get owned trying too do that to if the AI uncovers your army on their turn. It gets really bad if its chaos and their 4 stacks. Tenzarin fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 02:11
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Tenzarin posted:You can get owned trying too do that to if the AI uncovers your army on their turn. It gets really bad if its chaos and their 4 stacks. Only if they have multiple stacks like chaos, otherwise it seems like if an AI army discovers an ambusher it auto ends their movement where they were when they saw you. If you're super lucky you can now hope you have enough movement to attack them, they will retreat, then attack them again.
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Sep 28, 2017 02:24
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Yari sams are yonks better at killing cavalry than naginatas, it's not even close. Plus they get the charge ability so they can actually chase them down. And I disagree about heroes. It sounds like you're using them like a normal infantry unit? They're more like generals, except expendable and with much better stats than all but the highest level generals get. Their aura and durability mean they can help hold a line really well, and doubly so on sieges. If you use them to flank rather than absorb an enemy unit head on they can be pretty effective in a more standard role too. Archer ones are more limited, but if you go Christian (i.e. no warrior monks) then that extra range can be good to help you cheese the AI into charging you.
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Sep 28, 2017 02:27
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nopantsjack posted:As far as I know the ai can force March and basically do whatever it wants in the same turn The AI plays under the exact same movement rules as the player, but its better at managing the details, like knowing just how much distance is needed to run away from your rear end. The AI can sack and force march, but so can you.
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Sep 28, 2017 02:37
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Naginata Samurai are tough slow pokes you can stick in the anvil to back up ashigaru and katana samurais. They take less dmg from arrow spam also. Technically they don't have spears, that's why they don't do good vs horsemen.
Tenzarin fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 02:44
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Never been quite clear on how armor works in Shogun, is it like Rome/M2 where it's added to melee defense or is it a chance to resist damage separately?
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Sep 28, 2017 03:48
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I picked up shogun 2 cheap after warhammer came out to learn some battle strats with simpler units. I used this guide to get a grip on units in the game https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/14992/the-ultimate-shogun-2-land-unit-guide.quote:Naginata Samurai – Naginata Samurai sit somewhere between Katana Samurai and Yari Samurai so they make an amazing all-rounder. In addition to their versatility they are the most heavily armoured common unit in the game (only Katana Hero has equal armour). Thanks to their heavy armour arrow fire from Bow Ashigaru does about as much damage as throwing pebbled would to a toddler. Ok, that is not entirely accurate but generally they stand up much better to arrow fire than most other units. Bow Samurai fire arrows prob still hurt them but not as much as they hurt katana samurais. Tenzarin fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 04:13
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The naginata samurai are your brick house. The naginata monks are brick housier, but get hurt by arrows more. They aren't necessarily killy in the rock paper scissors dynamic of Shogun, mostly because they say gently caress that dynamic and live outside of it, but they're a good way to leverage your matchlocks or whatever have you. Ideally they should be the core of your army, while katana mangs or nodachis run around behind. Or cav if you actually managed to make them, but lol.
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Sep 28, 2017 04:19
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StashAugustine posted:Never been quite clear on how armor works in Shogun, is it like Rome/M2 where it's added to melee defense or is it a chance to resist damage separately? I think it basically works as a saving throw if the enemy scores a hit. So in the case of melee combat, if the attacker's melee attack roll beats the defenders melee defense roll, there will then be a second armour roll, and if that fails, then the attacker kills the defender. For ranged attacks, the attack/defense roll is just replaced by whether or not the actual physical arrow hits the unit model. Different weapons may have different abilities to pierce armour but I'm not sure because it's not enumerated anywhere in-game.
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Sep 28, 2017 04:58
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Shogun 2 combat us just so hyper lethal compared to any other total war title that Armor really doesn't come into play all that much wrt ranged fire. In melee it's the difference between a 35 second engagement and a 45 second engagement.
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Sep 28, 2017 05:23
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I thought yari ashigaru were the best anvil troops because they have the yari wall which keeps units at range and drags the combat out forever, similar to pikes in M2?
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Sep 28, 2017 11:27
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IIRC matchlock units in Shogun 2 were infamous for being cavalry murder machines since they shot at the rider instead of the "center mass" of the cavalry unit. Which meant that they could shoot over bodyblocking units with just enough elevation and/or distance. They couldn't kill as fast as archers, but the morale debuff and ability to neutralize enemy cavalry completely meant that they always had a place in my armies.
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Sep 28, 2017 11:38
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GrossMurpel posted:I thought yari ashigaru were the best anvil troops because they have the yari wall which keeps units at range and drags the combat out forever, similar to pikes in M2? Yari wall puts them on par but makes them super slow, vulnerable to missiles, and their morale still sucks. Against the AI that's less of an issue, and also they're significantly cheaper and easier to recruit.
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Sep 28, 2017 14:54
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Archer heroes were fantastic for siege defence. They were really accurate and coupled with the long range they'd be really good at forcing the enemy to come to you via killing all their archers, at which point you'd just move up your matchlock dudes and mow everything down. Matchlock were also doubly good in siege defence, because when the enemy got to the top of a wall they were climbing, you could just retreat a little bit and form a line facing the wall to continue shooting them one at a time, rather than getting stuck in melee. Taken out fairly big armies with just a general, the retainers and some units of matchlocks this way.
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Sep 28, 2017 15:49
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Now I'm actually playing S2 again and man I can't get a Takeda campaign off the ground. I keep getting dogpiled at the first opportunity
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Oct 7, 2017 03:29
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Arcsquad12 posted:Shogun 2 combat us just so hyper lethal compared to any other total war title that Armor really doesn't come into play all that much wrt ranged fire. In melee it's the difference between a 35 second engagement and a 45 second engagement. It actually makes a pretty substantial difference in survivability vs ranged fire (Naginata Samurai take roughly half the casualties compared to Katana Samurai if the enemy bow users are not Ashigaru) and in being able to take a charge. In melee, those extra seconds in an engagement can be a pretty big deal if you play it right, if properly supported on the flanks and in the general bonus the reduced casualty rate from the heavier armoured units can often double how long a line holds. Not to mention that if both sides properly skirmish, the units which would normally win, Katana Samurai, will instead be weakened enough that the Naginata Samurai will take the fight when the lines engage because of the differing casualties. It's why katana core armies have to skirmish completely differently to naginata core ones. If you compare armour against the low penetration bow unit, Bow Ashigaru (they have a different bow to every other ranged bow unit), Katana Samurai would take roughly 12 losses a volley (~10% of the unit) compared to 3ish for a unit of Naginata Samurai (~ 2.5%) as Bow Ashigaru are disproportionately impacted by armour. Firing into the melee with Bow Ashigaru when you are using Naginata Samurai is particularly effective (if somewhat brutal) thanks to this particular mechanic. GrossMurpel posted:I thought yari ashigaru were the best anvil troops because they have the yari wall which keeps units at range and drags the combat out forever, similar to pikes in M2? As StashAugustine mentioned, they are great anvil troops because of their cheapness and their ability to slow the combat down, but they are not the line troop of choice in your more advanced armies by a long way. Ranged heavy armies will decimate them, as they are both extremely vulnerable to arrows and rely heavily on their superior numbers and secure flanks to not chain rout. They have a solid niche and are never a bad choice, which is great in a baseline unit you can make anywhere cheaply that enjoys full replenishment at all times. You also don't care if they die! StashAugustine posted:Now I'm actually playing S2 again and man I can't get a Takeda campaign off the ground. I keep getting dogpiled at the first opportunity I'm happy to help if you wanted to post some screenshots of what you are doing, Takeda is a tricky start for sure.
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Oct 7, 2017 12:33
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Tactically I'm doing all right, probably need to build up my stack a little more but I can generally win even battle. (And some uneven, got a seven-to-one killcount on a stack twice my size in an ambush, thanks Warhammer for teaching me how amazing those are). The problem is diplomatically. I generally go up north and take out the province at war with you, and then start pushing on either Uesugi or the other faction to the north. But I get a little overextended (partially my fault), someone else wardecs me, then someone else and the dogpile starts up. I guess my general problem is figuring out how to pull yourself out of a spiral like that, where you end up in a war with 2+ people then everyone decides you're easy pickings. I might also try going south and taking out the Hojo for their good provinces.
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Oct 7, 2017 15:07
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Well I managed to get a decent game going, about halfway to realm divide. Still been using mostly ashigaru/light cav armies since my economy is garbage- I had to put a pretty big ashi stack up north to keep off Date and Uesugi while I moved southeast, and Uesugi had a bunch of monks running around converting my metsuke so I don't have any of those. Now Uesugi is dead and I have an academy so money should start rolling in. Still kinda considering making my core units ashigaru and just having cavalry on the flanks, since the infantry isn't doing most of the killing.
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Oct 10, 2017 21:45
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I've started a new game of M2:TW with England and the Pope is being a little bitch right now. I'm expanding about as rapidly as you'd expect and leaving Caen defended just lightly enough to tempt the French to attack me. I've got enough troops heading in that direction anyway, so I take my nearest large army and join the Crusade his Holiness just called. France attack, but the besieging army goes Rebel and the reinforcements back off. They continue to bum around having started the war, so I take my reinforcements and crush Paris. So: I join a Crusade, France attacks me, I retaliate and capture one of their cities. At which point, the pointy-hatted shitweasel tells me to knock it off. 
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Oct 16, 2017 17:33
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Anyone got a work around guaranteed to get Stainless steel to work for Medieval 2? Every time I try to fire it up it says I need the kingdoms.exe to make it run (Steam version doesn't' have that executable). I tried all the run-arounds suggested on the main website, but nothing works, even creating a fake exe. I did they said there are versions that "just don't work", strange thing is years ago I played Stainless Steel on the steam version just fine, with no problems, until it crashed and burned and couldn't be played any more. Any suggestions? I do have the disk versions, perhaps I should just use those?
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Oct 30, 2017 01:02
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Anyone got a work around guaranteed to get Stainless steel to work for Medieval 2? Every time I try to fire it up it says I need the kingdoms.exe to make it run (Steam version doesn't' have that executable). I tried all the run-arounds suggested on the main website, but nothing works, even creating a fake exe. There are a couple of youtube vids that explain what you need to do - Pixelated Apollo (think) has a good video "How to Install Stainless Steel 6.4 & Play Online" is the title, I can't get the url to paste correctly. It doesn't matter ifyou plan to play online or not, this is the one that worked for me. Dukket fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Oct 30, 2017 |
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Oct 30, 2017 01:22
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If memory serves you replace one of the kingdoms scenario folders with the stainless steel folder and change the .exe to match the old one. This fools steam into launching it.
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Oct 30, 2017 01:26
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Dukket posted:There are a couple of youtube vids that explain what you need to do - Pixelated Apollo (think) has a good video Sadly, I did all that the video instructed me to do, and yet when I go to load the version that SS6.3 is disguised as, it says "fatal error", and does not allow the game to start. Although now it is saying fatal error for any of the games, so I guess I broke something in the game trying to install it? Guess I could try a re-install again... Guess I'll just uninstall, wait for MW3 or just wait to play CK2 when Jade Dragon comes out. Crazy Joe Wilson fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Oct 30, 2017 |
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Oct 30, 2017 22:59
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Sadly, I did all that the video instructed me to do, and yet when I go to load the version that SS6.3 is disguised as, it says "fatal error", and does not allow the game to start. That sucks. I looked three or four vids and they were pretty much all the same. I'm pretty useless when it comes to that stuff so I need exact directions and those worked. Stainless Steel is pretty cool, except the heretics are ridiculously op.
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Oct 30, 2017 23:07
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Here's a new blog post about the historical stuff they're working on https://www.totalwar.com/blog/update-on-historical-releases
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Nov 1, 2017 12:33
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Beware of the crow. Great heathen army I guess?
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Nov 1, 2017 13:28
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Vikings?
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Nov 1, 2017 13:43
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That concept art tunic does look very Viking-esqe. Though they technically covered that era with the 1st Medieval Total War expansion.
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Nov 1, 2017 14:43
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