|
anilEhilated posted:Actually he does lie quite a bit but that's usually something you only catch him out on on the second read. Not really that much, unless you're counting lies of omission. Mostly he leaves stuff out, but so incompetently as to imply the real story, or doesn't understand what's going on.
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2017 05:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 07:56 |
|
|
Your Gay Uncle posted:His other collection of short stories " Endangered Species" is also amazing, with " In The House of GingerBread", "The Map (which takes place after Citadel of Autarc)" and "When I Was Ming The Merciless" being standouts, but they are all pretty great. Ming the Merciless is soooo good.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2017 06:08
|
|
|
Safety Biscuits posted:Not really that much, unless you're counting lies of omission. Mostly he leaves stuff out, but so incompetently as to imply the real story, or doesn't understand what's going on. I don't think he lies (to the reader) at all aside from omission. The only lies of intent are to other characters within the text. Severian omits a lot for drama (he makes a couple of asides about the structure of his book and what his readers expect of him when he first relates his dreams and when he draws a parallel between storytelling and the executions he performs), and also intentionally withholds information to try and recapture how he felt, or what he knew, about events at the time (though he makes a ton of comparisons between things he's observing in the moment and things he's seen before or will see later in the text). The only potential lies I've seen people point out are almost irrelevant discrepancies such as the Roche Drotte line mix-up, and who Vodalus gave the pistol to. Even if these are actual mistakes by Severian then I don't see how they reveal much to us. He makes a mistake about a small detail, therefore what...? We know he doesn't have a perfect memory - he just doesn't forget his experiences. Some memories are easier to access than others, and he might have to work backwards or forwards from a particularly strong memory as a starting point in order to find some of them. He can think inaccurate thoughts and misremember things if he doesn't find the original memory of the event. He can't call up memories instantaneously, and can have false impressions of events. He talks about thinking of times he remembered remembering events, and how subsequent recollections differ from the original ones. Severian can remember something accurately and be mistaken in his assessment of the situation. I would be keen to hear about Severian's lies if people have some examples. I haven't read the text in a while but overall my impression has always been that the liar angle was pretty overblown. life of lemons fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Sep 23, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2017 07:15
|
|
|
Well, the one big lie is his claim that he has a perfect memory. Whether that's intentional or not kind of depends on the way you're reading the book, be it as an "true" account of things or something Severian wrote to legitimze himself as the Autarch or to make himself look better in his own eyes. Thinking this made me question his motives a lot as he describes them - I suppose the question is just how unreliable a narrator he is. I guess I should've said there is the possibility that he lies (apart from accidental/strategic? omission) a lot; I admit that's just the way I've read him. Which probably means I should reread it again.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2017 09:49
|
|
|
life of lemons posted:I don't think he lies (to the reader) at all aside from omission. The only lies of intent are to other characters within the text. Severian omits a lot for drama (he makes a couple of asides about the structure of his book and what his readers expect of him when he first relates his dreams and when he draws a parallel between storytelling and the executions he performs), and also intentionally withholds information to try and recapture how he felt, or what he knew, about events at the time (though he makes a ton of comparisons between things he's observing in the moment and things he's seen before or will see later in the text). I mostly agree, but I'm pretty sure he also tells the reader the occasional deliberate porker - something about going to the House Azure, I think, but I can't think of any right now. But this is insight into Severian's personality, rather than the substance of the novel. Even in his confession, there are things he has trouble admitting.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2017 10:17
|
|
|
I wonder if Severian actually does have perfect memory as he claims, and the discrepancies are due to the book being authored by more than one Sevarian. There is time travel, and alternate futures like the anchorite's frozen Urth, and Sevarian is killed and resurrected many times. Is the Severain at the end the same as the one at the beginning?
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2017 16:47
|
|
|
Glimpse posted:I wonder if Severian actually does have perfect memory as he claims, and the discrepancies are due to the book being authored by more than one Sevarian. There is time travel, and alternate futures like the anchorite's frozen Urth, and Sevarian is killed and resurrected many times. Is the Severain at the end the same as the one at the beginning? Even if he does has eidetic memory it doesn't mean his recollection of events is perfect. He can perfectly remembering raping Jolenta, but from his perspective it wasn't rape, they were just consenually loving. I think most of "unreliable narrator" isn't him outright lying to the audience but his narrow perspective not showing what actually happened. It is a very interesting question if the Severian who opened the tomb in Shadow is the same Severian who ends up as Autarch since he does die and is reborn several times. It's a real Theseus's Ship dilemna.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2017 19:34
|
|
|
Hm. I'll have to go back and see whether my vague memory of Severian lying to the reader (about not having gotten it on with Thecla) is accurate, or whether he just omitted any indication that he actually did sleep with her, until Thecla's alzabo-persona memories tell us the truth. Rereads are occasionally complicated by the soundtrack I now associate with Severian, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80JrlYzUJqY this guy's wah-wah song.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2017 21:27
|
|
|
I've read New Sun multiple times and I still don't completely understand what happens between the end of book 1 and the start of book 2 in regard to Severian being separated from the others...
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2017 22:33
|
|
|
Uhlans were harrassing people because the Autarch had closed the roads. That's it, I think. Severian says something to that effect in SOTT.
|
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2017 23:58
|
|
|
Safety Biscuits posted:I mostly agree, but I'm pretty sure he also tells the reader the occasional deliberate porker - something about going to the House Azure, I think, but I can't think of any right now. But this is insight into Severian's personality, rather than the substance of the novel. Even in his confession, there are things he has trouble admitting. When he finishes talking about going there for the first time, he says he never went again but then way later he alludes to visiting it regularly. Honestly if Severian DOES have the kind of memory he claims to have, he might just be looking down on the reader who forgets things and assumes they won't notice or care if he contradicts himself or alludes to something he didn't mention earlier.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2017 03:27
|
|
|
The Vosgian Beast posted:When he finishes talking about going there for the first time, he says he never went again but then way later he alludes to visiting it regularly. He does say he only goes there once, but the Autarch says the same when they meet again in Claw. Maybe Severian's talking about other brothel places nearish to his tower.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2017 03:34
|
|
|
The Vosgian Beast posted:When he finishes talking about going there for the first time, he says he never went again but then way later he alludes to visiting it regularly. That's what I was remembering, but do you remember where it was?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2017 05:30
|
|
|
my bony fealty posted:Uhlans were harrassing people because the Autarch had closed the roads. That's it, I think. Severian says something to that effect in SOTT. i remember there being a theory that abaia was seen approaching by the river, which was why the uhlans were panicking and trying to clear people. it tied into something else that was happening in the broader story; that kind of panic would certainly make sense as to how it could separate people. i don't remember being convinced but it wasn't implausible. the closure of the roads wasn't a new thing, either, that had been in place a while.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2017 05:39
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:i remember there being a theory that abaia was seen approaching by the river, which was why the uhlans were panicking and trying to clear people. it tied into something else that was happening in the broader story; that kind of panic would certainly make sense as to how it could separate people. i don't remember being convinced but it wasn't implausible. the closure of the roads wasn't a new thing, either, that had been in place a while. Here you go, from Mr. Robert Borski's book: http://www.irosf.com/q/zine/article/10016
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2017 04:58
|
|
|
Snowdog79 posted:Here you go, from Mr. Robert Borski's book: that's the one. i remember borski getting some hate on here for making some tenuous arguments. i didn't think that was so justified, on the basis of my hazy recollection of reading solar labyrinths a decade ago. the impression i had was that while his arguments usually failed to convince, i'd at least learn about some plausible connections and allusions i wasn't aware of before, and some of the intermediary steps on the way to the ultimate conclusion were reasonable. next time i reread the botns i'll have a read of these and may find out 19 year old me is a lovely judge of everything.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2017 08:39
|
|
|
I think these books broke my brain on some fundamental level
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2017 19:09
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:that's the one. i remember borski getting some hate on here for making some tenuous arguments. i didn't think that was so justified, on the basis of my hazy recollection of reading solar labyrinths a decade ago. the impression i had was that while his arguments usually failed to convince, i'd at least learn about some plausible connections and allusions i wasn't aware of before, and some of the intermediary steps on the way to the ultimate conclusion were reasonable. next time i reread the botns i'll have a read of these and may find out 19 year old me is a lovely judge of everything. The problem with Borski is that he's the Ancient Aliens of Wolfe readers, he has plenty of good insight but then draws tenuous conclusions that are often based on his own other tenuous conclusions. quote:Well, just as I've argued earlier that Caron may be the name of Dorcas's husband (there being a saint by that name, and Caron recalling Charon, the Greek ferryman of the dead), I'm tempted to call this second child Secunda... He takes something definite (the Saint/Monster naming scheme) and runs wild with it, to the point where he's no longer even talking about stuff in the text. ElGroucho posted:I think these books broke my brain on some fundamental level does that include Short Sun, wooo boy if you haven't read those yet
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2017 20:20
|
|
|
my bony fealty posted:The problem with Borski is that he's the Ancient Aliens of Wolfe readers, he has plenty of good insight but then draws tenuous conclusions that are often based on his own other tenuous conclusions. ah man 
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2017 20:21
|
|
|
I am so mad the Short Sun omnibus is out of print.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2017 03:05
|
|
|
Abaia personally trolling up through Nessus seems far-fetched, and Baldanders leaving Severian is easily explained by him looking for Dr Talos. The normal soldiers scattering people away from the roads, or beastmen sallying out, is a lot more plausible. There's also the repeated musings on mobs being animals of their own, rather than "a lot of people"; I'm not sure the disturbance requires any particular cause. Borski does have some interesting ideas though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2017 04:31
|
|
|
I don't think Abaia would fit in the river, since it's supposed to be the size of a mountain. It could be that the disturbance was caused by one of Hethor's creatures. That chapter is titled "Hethor" and the disturbance happens right after they meet Jonas; Hethor knows Jonas and tries to avoid him, so he might have caused the commotion to sneak away. Or maybe he was also already trying to kill Severian.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2017 02:31
|
|
|
Action Jacktion posted:I don't think Abaia would fit in the river, since it's supposed to be the size of a mountain. I don't think Agia had turned Hethor yet, she didn't want to kill Severian until he beheaded her brother and that's not for a few chapters .
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 17:53
|
|
|
Your Gay Uncle posted:I don't think Agia had turned Hethor yet, she didn't want to kill Severian until he beheaded her brother and that's not for a few chapters . The disturbance at the gate happens in the book's last chapter. Agilus dies several chapters earlier.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2017 01:53
|
|
|
New series on Tor.com: Matthew Keeley is doing an overview of Wolfe and his works. The first entry focus on Wolfe the person, and has a delightful story of the first time he met Gene in person. https://www.tor.com/2017/10/16/approaching-gene-wolfe-with-awe-and-trepidation/
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2017 18:19
|
|
|
Snowdog79 posted:New series on Tor.com: Matthew Keeley is doing an overview of Wolfe and his works. The first entry focus on Wolfe the person, and has a delightful story of the first time he met Gene in person. Nice, thanks dude
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2017 01:03
|
|
|
Alzabo Soup clued me onto The Gene Wolfe Literary Podcast. They're different kinds of nerds with different training and insights but it served me pretty well during the last week's road trips. I'm impressed how strongly their recaps of stories I've only read once many years ago evoke emotional memories. Things start to pick up on Episode 4.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2017 01:36
|
|
|
Speaking of Alzabo Soup, their readthrough of BOTNS continues to be excellent
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2017 03:42
|
|
|
angel opportunity posted:Speaking of Alzabo Soup, their readthrough of BOTNS continues to be excellent
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2017 12:07
|
|
|
I finished An Evil Guest on my flight today... ...the gently caress did I just read?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2017 01:01
|
|
|
It's been a while since I've read that one, though that was my second run-through I believe. It was an odd stand-alone in that it felt like it was leaving itself open to a sequel, but Wolfe doesn't usually leave any unfinished business like that. I read a rather well-constructed  argument somewhere that the book is its own sequel. I don't remember the specifics at this point, but it made a lot of sense to me emotionally, so I've been meaning to revisit it with that in mind.Or, fingers crossed, one of those podcast people will do a deep dive for me. I enjoy reading Wolfe too much, which means I do it at hours which are not conducive to sussing out nuance.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2017 00:56
|
|
|
Welp, now I realize I somehow never read that. Time to rectify, I guess. Summaries make it look like a regular clusterfuck.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2017 11:07
|
|
|
Got the Best of short story anthology for Christmas, and drat Wolfe's short stories are on point. Also got The Borrowed Man, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Also finished a second readthrough of BotNS, and wow does that book benefit a lot on a reread. I loved it the first time but a reread really brings it to a whole nother level
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2018 04:09
|
|
|
I picked up Fifth Head of Cerberus recently and while I have no clue what’s really going on in the second novella it is so psychedelic that I really don’t care.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 20:31
|
|
|
Forlesen was entirely too real for someone who's worked thankless jobs that demand you do more work than is actually available, but I loved it: it had the pitch-black Kafkaesque humour to it. I also love at the end where they go through the different explanations. "It could be demons, or aliens, or you're in a simulation or maybe it's just a tumor, I dunno." 
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2018 04:26
|
|
|
Hammer Bro. posted:It's been a while since I've read that one, though that was my second run-through I believe. It was an odd stand-alone in that it felt like it was leaving itself open to a sequel, but Wolfe doesn't usually leave any unfinished business like that. I'd like to read that argument because it would make about as much sense as anything else on first pass. It's a very jarring book, how the first 2/3 or so is spent plodding through Cassie's life and the stage productions and theater colleagues, then all of a sudden she's on a tropical island and the action escalates extremely quickly and Cthulhu is there? If you told me the secret of the book lies in the rather detailed descriptions of the food the characters order, I'd believe it. There's also something very strange going on in the period after the bat aliens (Wolders?) save Cassie and drop her off on the volcano island, and when she gets rescued - it can't have been very long, but she seems to have aged a few decades. Radiation sickness from Wolder magic? Gideon's star-power glamor wearing off had some adverse side effects? I dunno, I'll definitely read it again someday. At the end I was pretty convinced that Gideon Chase is the villain and I want to go through it again with that in mind. For some reason I have it in my head that Gideon and Bill Reis are the same person but I couldn't give you much evidence for that. I could really do without Wolfe's annoying racist attempt to make the computer sound Japanese, I think Sorcerer's House had that same problem. Shark Sandwich posted:I picked up Fifth Head of Cerberus recently and while I have no clue what’s really going on in the second novella it is so psychedelic that I really don’t care. That's the right place to be, it's a real literary walkabout. The third part is pretty trippy too, in a different way. St Croix and St Anne are on the bottom of my "sci-fi places I'd like to visit" list. ManlyGrunting posted:Forlesen was entirely too real for someone who's worked thankless jobs that demand you do more work than is actually available, but I loved it: it had the pitch-black Kafkaesque humour to it. I also love at the end where they go through the different explanations. "It could be demons, or aliens, or you're in a simulation or maybe it's just a tumor, I dunno." Forlsen is real as heck. The character naming scheme means something important, but I totally forget what. I love that the story is presented as if it all takes place in one (long) day, but maybe not since our hero should be at home lunching when he's doing a training at one point according to the timeline. That whole collection is generally great and probably aptly named, although there are a lot of Wolfe stories I haven't read. Seven American Nights might be my personal favorite, it's wild.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2018 05:28
|
|
|
Shark Sandwich posted:I picked up Fifth Head of Cerberus recently and while I have no clue what’s really going on in the second novella it is so psychedelic that I really don’t care. I always found it hard to figure out what was going on with the Shadow Children in that. I thought I understood that they weresettlers who'd changed due to dependence on that plant thing but other interpretations I read strongly implied that was wrong Love that book though, it's what I recommend to people if I think they'd like Wolfe since it doesn't have as much of a minimum time investment to appreciate but still shows a lot of what makes Wolfe a great author
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2018 09:29
|
|
|
ManlyGrunting posted:Forlesen was entirely too real for someone who's worked thankless jobs that demand you do more work than is actually available, but I loved it What really threw me for a loop when somebody pointed it out was how accurate that story is to modern times but how long ago it was actually written: I don't think "synergy" was a buzzword yet. As always, Alzabo Soup does a fascinating analysis (though one of the theories is further flung than usual, but with a few bits of interest about it) here and here. my bony fealty posted:I'd like to read that argument because it would make about as much sense as anything else on first pass. I think this was what I read. Glancing at it again there are some pretty tenuous arguments, but some things still resonate with me, so it'll make the next reread more interesting. my bony fealty posted:it can't have been very long, but she seems to have aged a few decades. Radiation sickness from Wolder magic? Gideon's star-power glamor wearing off had some adverse side effects? I originally had the impression and never felt the reason to question it that it was Gideon's magic wearing off. They talk a fair bit about how changing upward is much more difficult to do and maintain than slipping downward. I figured it was either a return to how she should've been after the life she'd lived or maybe a little extra downward slide. my bony fealty posted:I dunno, I'll definitely read it again someday. At the end I was pretty convinced that Gideon Chase is the villain and I want to go through it again with that in mind. For some reason I have it in my head that Gideon and Bill Reis are the same person but I couldn't give you much evidence for that. Agreed on the first part. I don't feel that way about the second thing, but I'm always open to crazy Wolfe conspiracies if you find evidence. my bony fealty posted:I could really do without Wolfe's annoying racist attempt to make the computer sound Japanese, I think Sorcerer's House had that same problem. If you buy the interpretation of Sorcerer's House that much if not all of the supernatural is fabricated, which I do because it makes the work significantly more interesting, then it's not Wolfe being racist, it's Bax being incendiary toward George and Millie. my bony fealty posted:Forlsen is real as heck. The character naming scheme means something important, but I totally forget what. I love that the story is presented as if it all takes place in one (long) day, but maybe not since our hero should be at home lunching when he's doing a training at one point according to the timeline. It looks like the names refer to generations, possibly of robots. Check the links above if you want to hear delightful nerds stay focused on the topic for a while.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2018 19:40
|
|
|
Just read Hour of Trust Holy gently caress 
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2018 06:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 07:56 |
|
|
Neurosis posted:I always found it hard to figure out what was going on with the Shadow Children in that. I thought I understood that they weresettlers who'd changed due to dependence on that plant thing but other interpretations I read strongly implied that was wrong My impression was that the shadow children were aliens. They arrived on St. Anne before or after a wave of human colonists. These colonists likely arrived from Earth directly. The Shadow Children had many abilities, such as shape-shifting, but notably could "hide" the planet from outside observers (maybe by generating some kind of electrical storm?). In any case, the planet was lost to Earth and forgotten about. The Shadow Children were in danger of extinction and so were using various abilities to hide themselves or to change their appearances. In a sense, they were already trying to blend into the human population and supplant it when the St. Croix lander arrived. However, they themselves had allowed it to arrive by withdrawing their protection to avoid being wiped out by the violent marshmen. At which point, they killed the new colonists, went to St. Croix, and took over that population as well. The humans we see don't even realize they're not humans, but there are still a handful of "wild" abos in the wilderness who tried to stick to their old way of life rather than the human one (hence the rejection of tools). I remember reading some interpretations of the story that differed a bit from my own, but gently caress if I can remember them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2018 08:07
|
|