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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Here is the Linke party program To be honest and fair, this sounds a bit poo poo... Having utopian faith is the correct position, but that doesn't excuse a lack of any deeper policy or stated legal aim in terms of program to be pursued. You can't first try to get elected and then figure out what to do. Although that's probably partly because that's in english and not german? idk
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Sep 28, 2017 11:56
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YF-23 posted:As much as it makes sense to talk about how the game is skewed against the left, you cannot just use that as an excuse to be complacent and say "there's nothing that could have been done, we didn't fail anyone, we were only failed by others". Lollontee has a massive point there, I agree fully.
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Sep 28, 2017 11:58
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lollontee posted:To be honest and fair, this sounds a bit poo poo... Having utopian faith is the correct position, but that doesn't excuse a lack of any deeper policy or stated legal aim in terms of program to be pursued. You can't first try to get elected and then figure out what to do. It's also only a couple of paragraphs and there's only so much you can put in that... but yeah, you need more than just that.
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Sep 28, 2017 12:03
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Don't get me wrong though, the EU is the key as well the cause of the problem. We're going to be in a bit hurry if we want to see the Left in power in the Union before it implodes, but meanwhile before that happens, in the European Trade Area you would still be able to exert immense power through its institutions, with even a few member states with socialist governments cooperating on a Commissional level. But you still would need to have negotiated a common socialist party line before hand. You know, have a program.
lollontee fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 12:10
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lollontee posted:Don't get me wrong though, the EU is the key as well the cause of the problem. We're going to in a bit hurry if we want to see the Left in power in the Union before it implodes, but in the meanwhile the European Trade Area would still be able to exert immense power with even a few member states with socialist governments cooperating on a Commissional level. But you still would need to have negotiated a common socialist party line before hand. You know, a program. And considering how socialist parties all over Europe now toe the neoliberal line.... Any projections on when it implodes? One of the good posters in this thread once told me that he or she expects the EU to go the way of the Roman empire, slow disintegration and all, and I was convinced. But with the PROC's party congress in October (and their need to keep Chinese finance from imploding into a black hole for a little while more), plus Catalonia, plus financial bubbles all over the loving world, plus most banks being zombi companies, plus CC debt exploding, etc.etc. I am pretty worried about this end of the year.
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Sep 28, 2017 12:15
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Dawncloack posted:Any projections on when it implodes? who the gently caress knows, but at least we can all agree on seeing it coming.
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Sep 28, 2017 12:16
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It's been coming ever since they let us balkan people in, we gently caress up everything. Just look at yugoslavia.
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Sep 28, 2017 12:17
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Truga posted:It's been coming ever since they let us balkan people in, we gently caress up everything. Just look at yugoslavia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwDrHqNZ9lo
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Sep 28, 2017 12:18
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Truga posted:It's been coming ever since they let us balkan people in, we gently caress up everything. Just look at yugoslavia. Careful, if the IMF notices you again we're going to see another balkan war
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Sep 28, 2017 12:25
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Dawncloack posted:Any projections on when it implodes? One of the good posters in this thread once told me that he or she expects the EU to go the way of the Roman empire, slow disintegration and all, and I was convinced. A 250 year* decline would be considered a pretty successful thing I'd say for something that's barely a few decades old. People always underestimate how long the supposedly weak late Roman Empire was still around after its height (whenever you define its height, personally I go with Marcus Aurelius, but many differ of course). *1200 years you Eastern Roman Empire history aficionados
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Sep 28, 2017 12:40
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Dawncloack posted:And considering how socialist parties all over Europe now toe the neoliberal line.... The EU is not going to 'implode', there is just no mechanism by which this happens. Maybe there will be another economic crisis, but that doesn't imply a political crisis in the EU. If there is another crisis, the member states *have to* cooperate because nobody is big enough so survive by themselves. Moreover, the Brexit process makes clear that the consequences of EU exit can be made exceptionally unpleasant, as economies are ever more interlinked and leaving the Single Market is even more painful. And possibly having to drop the euro only adds to the difficulty and costs. Brexit also shows that even if you wanted to leave you would take a year to prepare for triggering article 50, two years to negotiate at least, then another two years as a transition period, and so on. So any politician wanting to leave will likely have to win an election while convincing his electorate that they should leave, and then at least survive one more while the exit process is happening. There are very few countries where the conditions are in place for this to happen. Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 13:06
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Tesseraction posted:The Left tends to need to win on grassroots support because the media is unlikely to be run by people willing to pay more taxes so poor people can eat. And at the moment populist nationalist parties are largely growing based on grassroots support. Makes you think. YF-23 posted:Of course it's going to be a hostile media environment. It was never going to be otherwise. Both in Greece and in Spain that was the case. So it was in Britain also, Corbyn was the media's #1 target from the moment he got elected Labour leader all the way to the June election. The left in France failed but not without Melenchon getting within striking range of the presidential second round. In all these countries the left got electoral successes. Even in the case of Spain where Podemos failed to win they made big strides. But in Germany Die Linke has been unable to replicate that sort of thing. The biggest praise you can give them is that they grew their numbers even as they lost the "gently caress you" voters to AfD, but that is still an underwhelming result. As much as it makes sense to talk about how the game is skewed against the left, you cannot just use that as an excuse to be complacent and say "there's nothing that could have been done, we didn't fail anyone, we were only failed by others". It is not like the populist nationalist have a favorable media environment. Well, if you think everything right of the extreme left is racist, I guess one could call it a favorable media environment. But for centrist, liberal media the populist nationalists are not getting a favorable media treatment. It is like the left have lost their ties with the working class for some inexplicable reason......
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Sep 28, 2017 13:23
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I'll preface this by repeating that I am not a consumer of German media; however, media around the world have tended to treat far-right figures as kind of celebrities eve while they are calling them racist. There's a lot of ways to glamourise people you are trying to cast as villains. Think Jimmy Fallon ruffling Trump's hair. In Greece the more right-wing/yellow press has occasionally treated some Golden Dawn members, like Kasidiaris, as sex symbols. And when you treat a far-right party as "new", or in some way "revolutionary", you give them a certain kind of coolness, even if at the same time you're talking about how they want to sink boats crossing the med or whatever. And, in spite of not consuming any, I am sure that these same processes also took place within German media.
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Sep 28, 2017 14:05
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Cardiac posted:And at the moment populist nationalist parties are largely growing based on grassroots support. What does it make you think? Either you're just repeating my point or missing it badly.
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Sep 28, 2017 14:08
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YF-23 posted:And when you treat a far-right party as "new", or in some way "revolutionary", you give them a certain kind of coolness, even if at the same time you're talking about how they want to sink boats crossing the med or whatever.
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Sep 28, 2017 14:09
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Decius posted:A 250 year* decline would be considered a pretty successful thing I'd say for something that's barely a few decades old. People always underestimate how long the supposedly weak late Roman Empire was still around after its height (whenever you define its height, personally I go with Marcus Aurelius, but many differ of course). 1957: European Economic Community formed 1993: European Union replaces the EEC 2062: The EU is reformed into a federal state. 2075: The United States of Europe reach their greatest extent 2115: The USE break up into the Northern European Union and the Southern European Union 2127: The NEU breaks apart, the SEU remains strong. 2212: The SEU loses most of the Maghreb to a new polity formed by Nigerian refugees. 2264: The capital of the SEU finally falls to the children and grandchildren of these Nigerian refugees 2330: The Sultanate of Europe collapses, it's long decline punctuated by a cataclysmic war. Pretty realistic I say.
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Sep 28, 2017 14:39
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YF-23 posted:I'll preface this by repeating that I am not a consumer of German media; however, media around the world have tended to treat far-right figures as kind of celebrities eve while they are calling them racist. There's a lot of ways to glamourise people you are trying to cast as villains. Think Jimmy Fallon ruffling Trump's hair. In Greece the more right-wing/yellow press has occasionally treated some Golden Dawn members, like Kasidiaris, as sex symbols. And when you treat a far-right party as "new", or in some way "revolutionary", you give them a certain kind of coolness, even if at the same time you're talking about how they want to sink boats crossing the med or whatever.
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Sep 28, 2017 15:01
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Pluskut Tukker posted:The EU is not going to 'implode', there is just no mechanism by which this happens. I can't believe I'm giving a serious answer to such an asinine comment as "Something can't happen because there's no legal mechanism for it." Seriously dude. Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 15:38
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Pluskut Tukker posted:The EU is not going to 'implode', there is just no mechanism by which this happens. Maybe there will be another economic crisis, but that doesn't imply a political crisis in the EU. If there is another crisis, the member states *have to* cooperate because nobody is big enough so survive by themselves. What you are actually saying is that they have a choice between cooperating and suicide, and you are convinced they'll pick cooperating. I'm not 100% convinced.
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Sep 28, 2017 15:58
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Cingulate posted:This has to be put in a context of German and US mainstream media to the left of Fox rather consistently explicitly damning the far right. Even those center-right media concerned about immigrants etc will talk about the far right in a similar language of concern, and will enter very few of the language games of the right (Lügenpresse!). You can say the media isn't doing enough, but their stance on the far right is at its most basic characterized as resolved opposition. Which is fair enough, Finnish media is also very critical of our racist party, but that still fuels the problem: Anyone who is pre-disposed to thinking "gently caress the system" or "I don't like them foreigners" sees this critique and thinks "well if them durn media elites don't like 'em, I guess I do!" and you have another potential vote for the racist party. I have no solution to offer here, but this seems to be the pattern.
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Sep 28, 2017 16:10
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A Buttery Pastry posted:For the comparison to hold up, you should probably scale the decline to match the ascend. Assuming the Roman Kingdom is the equivalent of the European Economic Community, you end up with a timeline for Europe that looks something like this:  Pluskut Tukker posted:The EU is not going to 'implode', there is just no mechanism by which this happens The EU doesn't have an army and nor does it have a police force. If its edicts start being ignored and its fees stop being paid then the EU will eventually seize to exist beyond text on a few treaties, regardless if a formal decision has ever been taken. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 16:13
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YF-23 posted:I'll preface this by repeating that I am not a consumer of German media; however, media around the world have tended to treat far-right figures as kind of celebrities eve while they are calling them racist. There's a lot of ways to glamourise people you are trying to cast as villains. Think Jimmy Fallon ruffling Trump's hair. In Greece the more right-wing/yellow press has occasionally treated some Golden Dawn members, like Kasidiaris, as sex symbols. And when you treat a far-right party as "new", or in some way "revolutionary", you give them a certain kind of coolness, even if at the same time you're talking about how they want to sink boats crossing the med or whatever. Yes, Trump is never criticized by the media. Look, Jimmy Fallon even ruffled his hair!
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Sep 28, 2017 16:25
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You might want to read posts more carefully before quoting them champ.
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Sep 28, 2017 16:27
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YF-23 posted:You might want to read posts more carefully before quoting them champ. They keep saying that Finnish education is some of the best in the world but when they appear in this thread I really start to have my doubts about the claims.
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Sep 28, 2017 16:32
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Tesseraction posted:They keep saying that Finnish education is some of the best in the world but when they appear in this thread I really start to have my doubts about the claims.
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Sep 28, 2017 16:55
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Tesseraction posted:They keep saying that Finnish education is some of the best in the world but when they appear in this thread I really start to have my doubts about the claims.  Can't we just agree that libertarians of any nationality are morons without bringing Finno-mongoloidism into it?
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Sep 28, 2017 16:56
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Rappaport posted:
Word
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Sep 28, 2017 17:18
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Dawncloack posted:Ok, please show me the law that the sub-units that formed Yugoslavia invoked to become independent, or the edict that officially separated the two Roman empires. Seriously dude, would you kindly do me the favour of assuming I'm arguing in good faith, even if you think my opinions may occasionally be wrong or misguided (which, certainly, they are) ? Because I try to. You misunderstood me, I'm not talking about a legal mechanism. I'm saying that for the EU to fall apart more is needed than just some economic or political crisis, because these come and go. I'm saying people in power need to actually take the steps to accomplish that, they need to have both the incentives to do so, they need to have and retain the power to do so, and they need to be able to survive the political fallout domestically and internationally. That is the mechanism I'm referring to. Moreover, one member state leaving is not enough to blow up the EU, because the others will just present a united front against them as we can see right now. On the whole, member states have derived real economic benefits from being part of the EU (I'd possibly make an exception for Greece there, which might have been better off if they'd not received hundreds of billions in structural funds), and leaving it is a real and major economic cost. The EU is not a state like Yugoslavia was where different etnicities with a history of genocidal violence against each other had a long suppressed struggle for power under a common government and not an empire like Rome, it's a unique internation organisation with supranational and intergovernmental features and it has a logic entirely of its own. If the EU could survive the global financial crisis, the crisis of the euro, and the refugee crisis, then there's not much on the direct horizon that I can see that will cause it to collapse. MiddleOne posted:The EU doesn't have an army and nor does it have a police force. If its edicts start being ignored and its fees stop being paid then the EU will eventually seize to exist beyond text on a few treaties, regardless if a formal decision has ever been taken. The EU doesn't do edicts. Everything important in the EU is done at the instigation of, or at least with the full consent of, all the democratically elected governments of its member states. Only the financial assistance programs are an exception to that, and that is most likely because they were not directly conducted under EU authority, instead the EU machinery was shoehorned in after the fact. Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 20:36
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Seriously dude, would you kindly do me the favour of assuming I'm arguing in good faith, even if you think my opinions may occasionally be wrong or misguided (which, certainly, they are) ? Because I try to. You misunderstood me, I'm not talking about a legal mechanism. I'm saying that for the EU to fall apart more is needed than just some economic or political crisis, because these come and go. I'm saying people in power need to actually take the steps to accomplish that, they need to have both the incentives to do so, they need to have and retain the power to do so, and they need to be able to survive the political fallout domestically and internationally. That is the mechanism I'm referring to. Moreover, one member state leaving is not enough to blow up the EU, because the others will just present a united front against them as we can see right now. On the whole, member states have derived real economic benefits from being part of the EU (I'd possibly make an exception for Greece there, which might have been better off if they'd not received hundreds of billions in structural funds), and leaving it is a real and major economic cost. The EU is not a state like Yugoslavia was where different etnicities with a history of genocidal violence against each other had a long suppressed struggle for power under a common government and not an empire like Rome, it's a unique internation organisation with supranational and intergovernmental features and it has a logic entirely of its own. If the EU could survive the global financial crisis, the crisis of the euro, and the refugee crisis, then there's not much on the direct horizon that I can see that will cause it to collapse. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 21:07
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Macron was talking about EU army recently. I'm sure everyone would be thrilled to invest into that, since they are all already meeting the funding goals for their national armies as set by NATO. Maybe we can reach some agreement with Greece and use them as conscript wave. In exchange the survivors can pillage the liberated country and use the stuff they find to pay back the debts.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:18
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Hey Pluskutt, I did misunderstand your post and answered flippantly. I am sorry, honest. Thanks for developing your point. I will be more civil in the future. You made me also realize I misspoke when I said "implode". I agree with you , and for the reasons you explained, that a rapid collapse is very unlikely, not even Hungary wants to try and leave through the front door. I meant something like what Buttery Pastry is describing, hence me comparing it to Rome. But I used the wrong word, mudding my point. One question tho, the EU has survived the Euro crisis... So far. What is your take on how things stand right now?
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Sep 28, 2017 21:44
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Pluskut Tukker posted:The EU doesn't do edicts. Dude, I was just being dramatic with my choice of words. I didn't literally mean edicts. 
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Sep 28, 2017 21:47
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Ligur posted:Can anyone make a short summary of suggested AfD (Nazi) policies for me and Doctor Malaver pls? 1) shoot
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Sep 29, 2017 00:18
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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It's TYOOL 2017 and people are still replying to Ligur  Dude is every bit as slow and nazi as he pretends to be, don't encourage him. Anyway, does anyone know how far British plans to join the EU army is? Danish papers are talking about it, but I can't find much online.
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Sep 29, 2017 09:24
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throw to first drat IT posted:Macron was talking about EU army recently. I'm sure everyone would be thrilled to invest into that, since they are all already meeting the funding goals for their national armies as set by NATO. An EU army has the potential to save a lot of money through standardisation of equipment, and removal of duplicated departments. It's a lot more expensive to have 28 different models of everything than it is to have only one. Tias posted:It's TYOOL 2017 and people are still replying to Ligur He's banned now Tias posted:Anyway, does anyone know how far British plans to join the EU army is? Danish papers are talking about it, but I can't find much online. Britain's historically been one of the biggest roadblocks to the concept of an EU army, which is why it's coming up again now that we've shat ourselves and set ourselves on fire.
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Sep 29, 2017 09:38
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Gort posted:An EU army has the potential to save a lot of money through standardisation of equipment, and removal of duplicated departments. It's a lot more expensive to have 28 different models of everything than it is to have only one. I don't even want to imagine the staggering amount of corruption that would come from that standardization.
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Sep 29, 2017 09:40
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MiddleOne posted:I don't even want to imagine the staggering amount of corruption that would come from that standardization. The important thing is would it be more or less than the current staggering amount of corruption. Or do you think Italy's military procurement processes are squeaky clean or something
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Sep 29, 2017 09:41
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YF-23 posted:I'll preface this by repeating that I am not a consumer of German media; however, media around the world have tended to treat far-right figures as kind of celebrities eve while they are calling them racist. There's a lot of ways to glamourise people you are trying to cast as villains. Think Jimmy Fallon ruffling Trump's hair. In Greece the more right-wing/yellow press has occasionally treated some Golden Dawn members, like Kasidiaris, as sex symbols. And when you treat a far-right party as "new", or in some way "revolutionary", you give them a certain kind of coolness, even if at the same time you're talking about how they want to sink boats crossing the med or whatever. That's a big claim and your examples aren't doing much to support it. Trump was glamorous much before he moved into politics and as for Greek politicians getting the sex symbol treatment, GIS "varoufakis motorcycle".
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Sep 29, 2017 10:00
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Doctor Malaver posted:That's a big claim and your examples aren't doing much to support it. Trump was glamorous much before he moved into politics and as for Greek politicians getting the sex symbol treatment, GIS "varoufakis motorcycle". It's also a stupid claim because the only times AfD politicians were treated as "sex symbols" were when one satire magazine called Weidel "Nazi-Schlampe" (nazi whore) and when Pretzell told the media that Petry is sexy because she has "something demonic" about her.
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Sep 29, 2017 10:05
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Gort posted:The important thing is would it be more or less than the current staggering amount of corruption. It would be way worse. Imagine the staggering amounts of money that would go into supplying anything for the entire EU.
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Sep 29, 2017 10:08
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