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Can we get the text of the actual language law under discussion? That can remove a lot of ambiguity here.
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Sep 30, 2017 16:13
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Discendo Vox posted:Can we get the text of the actual language law under discussion? That can remove a lot of ambiguity here. Basically all complaints stem from: quote:“Persons belonging to national minorities of Ukraine are guaranteed the right on education in municipal educational institutions of pre-school and primary education in the language of the national minority they belong to and in the official language of the State.” quote:“Persons belonging to national minorities of Ukraine are guaranteed the right on education in the language of the national minority they belong to."
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Sep 30, 2017 16:51
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Discendo Vox posted:Can we get the text of the actual language law under discussion? That can remove a lot of ambiguity here. Probably this: http://www.golos.com.ua/article/294010 Article 7 is the relevant bits, I think.
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Sep 30, 2017 16:53
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OddObserver posted:Probably this: Yeah, all complaints (Romania, Moldova, Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece, Russia) are about article 7 specifically. It is accused as violative of the Constitution of Ukraine (articles 10, 22, 23, and 53), the ECRML, the FCNM, Ukrainian law on national minorities in Ukraine (2494-XII), and some unspecified international agreements between Ukraine and its neighbours.
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Sep 30, 2017 17:01
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Yeah, all complaints (Romania, Moldova, Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece, Russia) are about article 7 specifically. It is accused as violative of the Constitution of Ukraine (articles 10, 22, 23, and 53), the ECRML, the FCNM, Ukrainian law on national minorities in Ukraine (2494-XII), and some unspecified international agreements between Ukraine and its neighbours. From the Ukrainian Constitution parts, 53 is the most explicitly relevant, and I doubt it's actually conflicting, since it explicitly says "Citizens who belong to national minorities are guaranteed in accordance with the law the right to receive instruction in their native language, or to study their native language in state and communal educational establishments and through national cultural societies" and the law in question does in fact explicitly provide for the "...or" option for things beyond primary level.
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Sep 30, 2017 17:10
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I have no idea how this new law will coincide with the decentralization plan.
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Sep 30, 2017 18:20
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OddObserver posted:From the Ukrainian Constitution parts, 53 is the most explicitly relevant, and I doubt it's actually conflicting, since it explicitly says "Citizens who belong to national minorities are guaranteed in accordance with the law the right to receive instruction in their native language, or to study their native language in state and communal educational establishments and through national cultural societies" and the law in question does in fact explicitly provide for the "...or" option for things beyond primary level. The obvious difference that I see is that the new law only mentions communal educational establishments in relation to ethnic minorities, which implies that state schools and universities will only provide education in Ukrainian.
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Sep 30, 2017 20:43
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Paladinus posted:The obvious difference that I see is that the new law only mentions communal educational establishments in relation to ethnic minorities, which implies that state schools and universities will only provide education in Ukrainian. The exception here is granted to the indigenous people (they have right for pre-university bilingual education until the end of secondary school). Other than that, educational institutions will be allowed to teach (likely just some) subjects also in English or in one of the official languages of the EU member states. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Sep 30, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 20:58
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What was the stated rationale of the law? Is there an anti-Russification argument in play here? As an American I find fully parallel language education systems difficult to understand from an infrastructure and cost perspective.
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Sep 30, 2017 22:47
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Discendo Vox posted:What was the stated rationale of the law? Is there an anti-Russification argument in play here? quote:The objectives of equal opportunities of all members of the Ukrainian society form the basis of the newly adopted Law “On Education”. The considerations took account of the assessments of steadily dropping level of secondary education among children receiving instruction in the language of national minorities. For instance, in 2016 over 36% of school graduates in Zakarpattya region scored 1 to 3 grades in the Ukrainian language on the 12 grade scale. In particular, in Beregove district of that region, which is densely populated by the Hungarian national minority, 75% of school graduates scored 1 to 3 grades in the Ukrainian language on the 12 grade scale. In 2016, in total 60,1% of children belonging to Hungarian and Romanian national minorities did not pass the threshold of testing in the State language. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Sep 30, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 23:07
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Discendo Vox posted:What was the stated rationale of the law? Is there an anti-Russification argument in play here? It's blatantly anti-Russification (though that won't be said out loud).   Left bars are Ukrainian fluency in 1989/2001, right bars are Russian fluency in 1989/2001. Other languages are much, much smaller and if Kal is right and they're giving exceptions to EU languages then that covers almost all the major non-Ukrainian speakers except Russians. As for the cost/infrastructure I imagine it's not so different from Canada, where there's French-language education in Quebec. Everyone outside Quebec learns basic French, everyone in Quebec learns pretty much fluent English. There are some English-language and some French-language universities in Quebec. Outside Quebec almost every institution is English-language. Maintenance of the systems isn't that difficult because primary French-speakers are relatively geographically concentrated. If Ukraine is anything remotely similar then this is basically a move aimed at de-Russifying the eastern border over time. vyelkin fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Sep 30, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 23:08
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vyelkin posted:It's blatantly anti-Russification. You can read about EU languages here yourself. E:  cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Sep 30, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 23:11
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Paladinus posted:The obvious difference that I see is that the new law only mentions communal educational establishments in relation to ethnic minorities, which implies that state schools and universities will only provide education in Ukrainian. Not sure what you're saying here, they'll still be offering course *of* the native language post-primary school, which is sufficient to meet that particular article's explicit language. (Whether it's enough for the European chapter is far harder to say, since that use rather open-ended language on what's appropriate...)
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Oct 1, 2017 00:00
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OddObserver posted:Not sure what you're saying here, they'll still be offering course *of* the native language post-primary school, which is sufficient to meet that particular article's explicit language.
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Oct 1, 2017 01:40
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Stuff other than native language/literature/culture will not be taught in Russian even in Russian schools, past 5th grade. It remains to be seen it privately-funded schools will have a curriculum leeway. Right, and I agree it's reasonable to consider that wrong, I am just saying that appears to be explicitly listed as a permissible setup by Article 53 of the Ukrainian Constitution (so long as the native language stuff itself is taught), so that part of the legal argument against the law is unlikely[*] to hold water. [*] unless appropriate judges are bribed.
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Oct 1, 2017 01:48
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OddObserver posted:Right, and I agree it's reasonable to consider that wrong, I am just saying that appears to be explicitly listed as a permissible setup by Article 53 of the Ukrainian Constitution (so long as the native language stuff itself is taught), so that part of the legal argument against the law is unlikely[*] to hold water. Ah, I think he was just clarifying the situation for the sake of it, rather than arguing against the point you made earlier.
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Oct 1, 2017 01:51
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For some local insight, my school in ZKP offers Czech, French, English, Hungarian, and last year German.
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Oct 1, 2017 07:51
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Shes Not Impressed posted:For some local insight, my school in ZKP offers Czech, French, English, Hungarian, and last year German. Genuinely curious - how much serious interest for Czech there was?
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Oct 1, 2017 11:47
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And why Czech instead of Slovak?
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Oct 1, 2017 12:29
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Thousands of people from Western Ukraine work seasonally in Prague. In every village in ZKP I was able to easily find somebody who spoke pretty fluent Czech. Also Czech tourism to the ZKP region is pretty major.
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Oct 1, 2017 12:37
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Kopijeger posted:And why Czech instead of Slovak? I don't want to risk being too specific, but my school is affiliated with Czechs.
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Oct 1, 2017 13:11
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It was an easy choice: the Slovaks vacated; the Checks checked in.
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Oct 1, 2017 13:34
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Cat Mattress posted:It was an easy choice: the Slovaks vacated; the Checks checked in. Czechs out.
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Oct 1, 2017 13:35
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My school had Polish (some sort of program with the Polish embassy), English, Russian and French at least, maybe German too. The whole debate is about the langue of instruction, and not availability of "foreign" languages though. Obviously it's great to let people study in their native tongues but what good is it if higher education is only available in one or at best two languages? It would be effectively keeping them out of universities. Realistically even in the best case scenario you could have have Ukrainian and Russian instruction but there's no way to ensure an equally high level for all minority languages. TBH I don't know what would be the best solution.
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Oct 1, 2017 14:47
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mobby_6kl posted:My school had Polish (some sort of program with the Polish embassy), English, Russian and French at least, maybe German too. The whole debate is about the langue of instruction, and not availability of "foreign" languages though. Obviously it's great to let people study in their native tongues but what good is it if higher education is only available in one or at best two languages? It would be effectively keeping them out of universities. Realistically even in the best case scenario you could have have Ukrainian and Russian instruction but there's no way to ensure an equally high level for all minority languages. TBH I don't know what would be the best solution.
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Oct 1, 2017 14:59
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Something something re Russia and the Saudis: https://twitter.com/SlavaTheThird/status/916042947610656769 Play in background for proper effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzVBqBosf5w
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Oct 6, 2017 03:40
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anatoliy pltkrvkay posted:Something something re Russia and the Saudis: Russia should have a red saber, while the Saudi have been confirmed to be on Yoda's side.
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Oct 6, 2017 04:12
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Yeah neo-communist red and Islamic green. You had one job!
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Oct 6, 2017 10:44
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https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/915598299129946114
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Oct 6, 2017 18:24
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I'm reminded of this, but I'm confident that Russia will be much stricter about enforcing proper adherence to construction regulations than the decadent west.
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Oct 6, 2017 19:41
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http://time.com/4971824/russian-military-bans-selfies/ lol they're onto you Brown Moses. I love this, it's like babby's first opsec. How has it taken them this long?
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Oct 6, 2017 19:56
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No tarps, no stray dogs 2/10
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Oct 6, 2017 19:59
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No commentary on the weird rosary thing in Poland?
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Oct 8, 2017 03:02
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OddObserver posted:No commentary on the weird rosary thing in Poland? Breaking news, Polish conservatives are xenophobic weirdos.
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Oct 8, 2017 03:04
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Kopijeger posted:And why Czech instead of Slovak? slovak is a fake nationality invented by George Soros in the Treaty of Trianon to cripple Glorious Hungary
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Oct 8, 2017 09:20
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OddObserver posted:No commentary on the weird rosary thing in Poland? The train operator suddenly became generous to offer tickets to this event across the country for a nominal fee of 1 zloty, which was cool because you could just jump off the train somewhere along the way and go do your thing for cheap. Regrettably, nothing really funny happened at the prayers themselves.
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Oct 8, 2017 11:27
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icantfindaname posted:slovak is a fake nationality invented by George Soros in the Treaty of Trianon to cripple Glorious Hungary Impressive that he did that ten years before being born.
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Oct 8, 2017 11:40
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Kopijeger posted:Impressive that he did that ten years before being born.
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Oct 8, 2017 12:18
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Kopijeger posted:Impressive that he did that ten years before being born.
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Oct 8, 2017 12:33
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Dwesa posted:Well, some people actually believe he was SS officer, despite the fact that he was 14 in 1945. But fact checking is for sheeple.
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Oct 8, 2017 12:50
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