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Cingulate posted:Again, I am not saying the sides have the same relationship to the truth and the media. I am saying, yes, categorically speaking, the centre, centre-left, left, and far left all love their own lies and their own fake news. But leftist are flawed humans just like everyone else and can and do fall in self-serving fallacies and fall for propaganda. Thanks to this thread, for one, I saw the crying baby video and realized it's nothing like what the screeds had let me believe.
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Oct 1, 2017 10:13
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Cingulate posted:I'm very European and I dislike nationalism and patriotism, so intuitively I don't sympathise with the Catalans, but it seems to me for a nationalist independence movement, they're doing just about everything right one could hope for: they're civil, peaceful, and democratic. Disliking nationalism and patriotism is cool and good, but how does that translate to preferring the spanish nation state over the (as of yet non-existing) catalan nation state?
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Oct 1, 2017 10:16
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cebrail posted:Disliking nationalism and patriotism is cool and good, but how does that translate to preferring the spanish nation state over the (as of yet non-existing) catalan nation state? When I point that out I usually hear protests that supporting the EU isn't nationalism. It is. You support your preferred identity-polity over others. That's nationalism. You'll say it's not a nation, or a collection of nations or w/e, but it doesn't matter. "The nation" doesn't exist, the political unit exercising political power (undemocratically in the case of the EU, because of the Eurogroup among other things) is what those people have been hoodwinked into supporting. It's not classical nationalism, since it's not belonging to an ethnic and linguistic tribe, but it is about a feeling of belonging to a tribe and supporting the raw political aims of its elite. So same.
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Oct 1, 2017 10:30
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GaussianCopula posted:It's good to see that Rajoy and the Spanish police respects the decision of the courts and cracks down on the Catalan separatists, who tried to disregard the courts like Trump and Orban. Yupp they're doing anything possible to make the Catalan independence movement stronger.
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Oct 1, 2017 10:54
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GaussianCopula posted:The referendum is illegal and the Spanish government has the duty to do everything to stop it. They should throw every Catalonian official who acts against the Spanish constitution and the verdict of the Spanish constitutional court in prison and not negotiate with traitors. gently caress off, Franco.
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Oct 1, 2017 11:09
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Cingulate posted:Also perfectly describes inane bullshit like the "pee tape" or the story that Trump kicked out a woman from one of his rallies cause her baby was crying. It's not particularly hard for somebody to ignore left-of-far-right media when people have been all too willing to add a bunch of made-up wish fulfilment on top of how genuinely terrible the man already is. Eh, what? The piss tape real meme is about pointing out that we don't know if the tape is real or not, but that nobody would actually be surprised if it was. Hiring Russian hookers to piss on Obama's bed and getting caught is just perfectly in line with everything wee know about the President of the United States and that's the actually absurd and funny point if this meme. Even the intelligence agencies didn't dismiss the dossier outright. Do you have some numbers about how many people actually firmly believe that the dossier is real instead of doing the piss tape is real meme? Also, I saw an unedited video of Trump beefing with that baby with my own eyes. It started with him playing it off for laughter and making himself look good but after the baby kept crying and he had no use for it anymore he started getting annoyed with it. I don't know if he actually was annoyed enough to throw them out, I never bothered to research it but it would make sense. How is this the same thing as fake news?
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Oct 1, 2017 11:09
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Ei GC does that mean you also support the venezuelan high court and the people who carry out their rullings?big if true.
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Oct 1, 2017 11:11
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So the Catalonian referendum is happening with the police taking down voting stations among heavy protests. So far there have been several charges, with 38 wounded, none of them with severe injuries. I can't see any reports of voters being violent, most of the photos I've seen are of people sitting down and resisting being carried away by the police. There is no census, no envelopes to vote with (so no privacy) and the people who were in charge of making sure the referendum result was real stepped down a week ago after facing heavy fines. The Generalitat has answered by letting people vote wherever they want with no control whatsoever, with slips printed at home, but still claims that the referendum has all guarantees and is still valid. Madrid will claim that there has been no referendum and the Generalitat that even under oppression the people have spoken and we'll be in exactly the same place than three months ago but considerably angrier.
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Oct 1, 2017 11:13
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It turns out that "A boot in every face,an autoritarian in every home" is a pretty powerfull slogan for people who are just the worst.
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Oct 1, 2017 11:14
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East Germans deserved to be shot for defying the law and undermining the internationally recognized, sovereign DDR in 1989.
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Oct 1, 2017 11:14
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The only thing I know is that every time GC posts, I get a tiny bit more convinced that the Allies should have gone ahead with the Morgenthau Plan after the war.
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Oct 1, 2017 11:25
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Phlegmish posted:East Germans deserved to be shot for defying the law and undermining the internationally recognized, sovereign DDR in 1989. In hindsight, given how they vote for AfD now, yes.
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Oct 1, 2017 11:26
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cebrail posted:Disliking nationalism and patriotism is cool and good, but how does that translate to preferring the spanish nation state over the (as of yet non-existing) catalan nation state? Of course, many of the stated motivations of the pro-independence catalans are perfectly valid and convincing. But in sum, it's a nationalist, patriotic movement. So I cannot condemn it, and I am sure many good people are behind it, but a new nation state emerging is not what I'm hoping for. Dawncloack posted:I see yhis a lot. Just a preference for EU nationalism, imo. Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Hiring Russian hookers to piss on Obama's bed and getting caught is just perfectly in line with everything wee know about the President of the United States Consider the Trump dossier, the, if I remember correctly, origin of the pee tape. Around election day, the entire buzzfeed section of the internet was convinced every word in it was true and it would lead to the removal of Trump. Again, I don't claim numbers are comparable between left and right. I'm saying, numbers are quite significant on the left. Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Also, I saw an unedited video of Trump beefing with that baby with my own eyes. It started with him playing it off for laughter and making himself look good but after the baby kept crying and he had no use for it anymore he started getting annoyed with it. I don't know if he actually was annoyed enough to throw them out, I never bothered to research it but it would make sense. How is this the same thing as fake news?
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Oct 1, 2017 11:29
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The whole Catalonian referendum would be a pretty funny story about another rightwing government shooting itself in the foot due to its own incompetence, were it not for said rightwing government deciding to throw away the mask entirely and starting to brutalize people en masse.
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Oct 1, 2017 11:36
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The lesson I've learned from the Catalonian referendum is (once again) the importance of mass media and the information war. Feed enough information to the people for a long enough period (in this case, 10+ years) and, slowly, enough people will believe whatever the gently caress you want without even a second thought. In my mind, it's just a clash between some people to preserve the status quo against another group who just wants to gain power, the good ol story of the world. The actual result of the referendum is inconsequential, the true purpose was to set up the confrontation, and now you have some pretty photos and vids of common people being repressed, bam, public relations war won. The most amusing (and sad thing) about the whole ordeal is that middle-class people in Catalonia are the ones who will probably suffer the most about the whole thing and it turns out they are the most vocal group about it. But what the gently caress do I know, I'm just a provincial lobster trying to make a living in this lovely world.
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Oct 1, 2017 12:11
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Cingulate posted:First, it seems to me to be in effect anti-EU. Second, it's motivated by nationalism. Third, it has a component of anti-solidarity. Catalonia is dynamic, productive, and in consequence, rich. It is understandable they want to keep some of this for themselves. But it's not how I would like to see things done. We should show solidarity with each other, and tear borders down, not erect new ones. That doesn't answer my question. Unless you're advocating an immediate no-state-solution there's spanish nationalism versus catalan nationalism and the question is why you support the former over the latter.
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Oct 1, 2017 12:17
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Cingulate posted:Again, I am not saying the sides have the same relationship to the truth and the media. I am saying, yes, categorically speaking, the centre, centre-left, left, and far left all love their own lies and their own fake news. Dawncloack posted:It's not classical nationalism, since it's not belonging to an ethnic and linguistic tribe, but it is about a feeling of belonging to a tribe and supporting the raw political aims of its elite. So same. cebrail posted:That doesn't answer my question. Unless you're advocating an immediate no-state-solution there's spanish nationalism versus catalan nationalism and the question is why you support the former over the latter.
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Oct 1, 2017 12:30
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Cingulate posted:Consider the Trump dossier, the, if I remember correctly, origin of the pee tape. Around election day, the entire buzzfeed section of the internet was convinced every word in it was true and it would lead to the removal of Trump. Again, I don't claim numbers are comparable between left and right. I'm saying, numbers are quite significant on the left. Nah, media and the intelligence services got hold of the the Steele dossier before the election, but it was first published much later and after Trump got elected. And the piss story is totally consistent with everything we know about Trump. He and his campaign team have been unbelievably reckless with their communication, meetings and privacy during the campaign. That's just how Trump operates. He is totally inept at everything. Also, we know that he feels great resentment about having being humiliated by Obama, we know about his weird sexual hangups from court testimonies of his ex-wife Marla, etc. Seriously, how is all of this in any way similar to Macedonian white trash people trying to earn $258 a month by making up fantasy stories about made up refugees raping people in made up places? This is not the same league, it's not even the same game. Sorry, but I'm not gonna let that stand.  Also, Trump beefed with that baby and in a very annoying tone told them to get the gently caress out. It's a fact, you can watch the video on youtube. Ok, some of the reports might have contained inaccuracies like them being actually thrown out, but again, not the same thing as Macedonian white trash people. Especially since they probably were not intentional and malicious.
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Oct 1, 2017 12:33
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Cingulate posted:To me, supporting the EU is just a stepping stone for a future without borders. It's not a preference for the EU because either 1. it's my tribe, 2. I think it's the best tribe; it's an anti-tribal movement. Support of the EU, to me, is not patriotism, it's almost entirely anti-patriotism. It's cool and I'm with you in wanting a future without borders and such (Except for the free movement of capital, that's bullshit). But I think that you are projecting what you want into the EU, and not checking what the EU actually does. I have found this projection to be true in general of EU nationalists, and of nationalists and patriots of all colors. But here's the deal: The UN does have the concept of a world without borders, it's called "integration of integrations". I also have a front row seat in a European regional international organization in charge of the integration of integrations. And the EU, a member of the aforementioned organization, has only one position towards that, and it's "hahahaha no". I can't source what I just said, but what I'd tell EU supporters is, please look at what the EU does, not what it says it does. Edit: The onus is on you to prove that the UEofE wouldn't just be a big country, but a country just the same. Got any evidence of that? If you do I'm a taker. VVV Trick question. That's what they are trying to create, a unified state. The whole point of the EU propaganda (Human rights! peace and friendship!) is to create that feeling of belonging. It's a nation in the making. Literally every nation that has ad to become independent has had to create its own national myths and assorted BS. Because of the circumstances, the EU has to do that to become a nation, and not after. But it's the same process. Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 13:09
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How can you have nationalism for something that isn't a nation?
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Oct 1, 2017 13:15
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Dawncloack posted:VVV Trick question. That's what they are trying to create, a unified state. The whole point of the EU propaganda (Human rights! peace and friendship!) is to create that feeling of belonging. It's a nation in the making. Literally every nation that has ad to become independent has had to create its own national myths and assorted BS. Because of the circumstances, the EU has to do that to become a nation, and not after. But it's the same process. The EU is a union of *states*. Only states can become EU members. All the important bodies in EU decisionmaking are made up of either state representatives (European Council, Council of Ministers), or of people who, though they work for supranational bodies, still get appointed by member state governments (European Commission, CJEU, ECB). Only the European Parliament is directly elected, but even there, you can vote only for representatives of your own country. The EU Treaties get written by the member states and can only be amended with the unanimous consent of all the member states. So the only way for the EU to become a unified state would be for a majority of the governments in all of the EU member states to suddenly develop a death wish, prepare for the abolition of their own countries and to decide to vote themselves out of existence. I'd say this is a somewhat unlikely state of affairs to come into existence.
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Oct 1, 2017 13:31
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Delors, Monti, Verhofstad, Reding and others have called for the United States of Europe. The idea has been there from the beginning, even if, admittedly, it's not maybe the idea of every single Brussels civil servant. To deny that it's one of the big motivations is disingenuous.
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Oct 1, 2017 13:41
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Mozi posted:How can you have nationalism for something that isn't a nation? White nationalism? Ultimately "nationalism" is a term used to describe ethnic-based tribalism; but ethnicity is something fluid, it's an identity, so it's a thing that can apply to more than just "traditional" nations.
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Oct 1, 2017 13:54
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Don't think too hard about it, nobody does anyway.
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Oct 1, 2017 14:08
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337 people hurt so far, according to the Govern. The Spanish state has just made Catalan independence virtually inevitable, if not now then certainly at some point in the future.
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Oct 1, 2017 14:11
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Phlegmish posted:337 people hurt so far, according to the Govern. They've been treating Catalonia as occupied territory rather than a part of Spain. It's disgusting.
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Oct 1, 2017 14:17
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Mozi posted:How can you have nationalism for something that isn't a nation? Ask a 'German' in 1848. 
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Oct 1, 2017 14:23
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YF-23 posted:They've been treating Catalonia as occupied territory rather than a part of Spain. It's disgusting. That's exactly it. They've even reprimanded the Mossos (Catalan police) for not being repressive enough.
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Oct 1, 2017 14:32
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YF-23 posted:They've been treating Catalonia as occupied territory rather than a part of Spain. It's disgusting. It's a matter of perspective, some amount of violence was inevitable since the beginning. My only hope is that some poor fucker doesn't die in a useless riot somewhere, that would only serve to fan the flames.
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Oct 1, 2017 14:51
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Angry Lobster posted:It's a matter of perspective, some amount of violence was inevitable since the beginning. My only hope is that some poor fucker doesn't die in a useless riot somewhere, that would only serve to fan the flames. I hear someone already had a heart attack during a police charge. He's in critical condition.
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Oct 1, 2017 14:58
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Phlegmish posted:I hear someone already had a heart attack during a police charge. He's in critical condition. The gooniest protestor.
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Oct 1, 2017 15:10
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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I'm against Catalan independence in concept, but it's ridiculous to think that the Spanish government's response here is in any way appropriate. Why didn't they just instruct anti-independence people to boycott the illegal* referendum and then call the results illegitimate and ignore them entirely? * I'm not saying the referendum should be illegal, just that it presently is
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Oct 1, 2017 15:14
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fishmech posted:Ask a 'German' in 1848. 
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Oct 1, 2017 15:18
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PT6A posted:I'm against Catalan independence in concept, but it's ridiculous to think that the Spanish government's response here is in any way appropriate. Well, the remain strategy is to boycott already. If the Spanish government had let that slide you'd have a Catalonia that is de facto independent, and the only real way for the Spanish government to then enforce its will would be by force of arms. The actually not collosally stupid thing to do would be to negotiate a referendum on Catalan independence and then participate in it, trying to make a good case against independence, and then respect that referendum's results. Instead of that they chose to poo poo on Catalonia every time the issue was brought up, and their response in the current situation will diminish the Spanish government's legitimate rule over Catalonia in the eyes of many.
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Oct 1, 2017 15:21
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fishmech posted:Ask a 'German' in 1848.
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Oct 1, 2017 15:21
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YF-23 posted:Well, the remain strategy is to boycott already. If the Spanish government had let that slide you'd have a Catalonia that is de facto independent, and the only real way for the Spanish government to then enforce its will would be by force of arms.
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Oct 1, 2017 15:23
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Yeah, before this all went down the Spanish government could have still played coy and tried to invalidate the referendum without violence or very least could have established "joint-commission" research the issue and drag it out a decade or two. Now that people are fired up, it has become a huge mess. The answer is as stated previously, Spain still has some serious authoritarian streaks in it and a key element of authoritarianism is destroying protests with direct force.
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Oct 1, 2017 15:26
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Any government which chooses mass repression over the ballot box is illegitimate. The correct course of action is immediate suspension of Spanish membership from all EU bodies until such time as democracy is restored.
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Oct 1, 2017 15:38
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To be able to effectively negotiate something you need both parties to be willing to sit down and discuss the problem, but if one party is entrenched in "the answer is no" and the other sider only answer is "our way or highway", the possibility of a negotiated outcome is murdered before it's even born. I feel the truth is this whole thing has been a farce of colossal proportions. Sure, all the politicians responsible for this are safe and sound, behind high walls and protected by an army of policemen and lawyers. But of course, let's put elders and children in the frontlines, they will look more pitiable when over zealous policemen smacks their heads with a boot or a rubber ball, it will only make our cause more just! What a bunch of miserable, power hungry bastards.
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Oct 1, 2017 15:45
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Angry Lobster posted:To be able to effectively negotiate something you need both parties to be willing to sit down and discuss the problem, but if one party is entrenched in "the answer is no" and the other sider only answer is "our way or highway", the possibility of a negotiated outcome is murdered before it's even born. You are doing a lot of bad equivocating here. Two things in particular: First, there's no way to know how the Catalan independentists might have responded to a Spanish-sponsored referendum, because they were never given the chance. Boiling their treatment of this to "our way or the highway" is acting as though the Spanish government offered them a referendum on different terms, and they rejected it. That never happened. Second, you are saying the political class on both sides is protected. But in the past few weeks, the police have arrested Catalan officials over this. And if Spain has its way it's near-certain that they will face a Spanish justice system that will desperately want to punish them for the referendum. Mariano Rajoy on the other hand is risking nothing if Catalonia does end up becoming independent. His political career will be over, sure, but then he can just retire and have a wank for the rest of his days and not give a poo poo.
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Oct 1, 2017 15:57
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