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Angry Lobster posted:To be able to effectively negotiate something you need both parties to be willing to sit down and discuss the problem, but if one party is entrenched in "the answer is no" and the other sider only answer is "our way or highway", the possibility of a negotiated outcome is murdered before it's even born. Na Spanish people and their government look like clowns at the moment.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:01
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Orange Devil posted:Any government which chooses mass repression over the ballot box is illegitimate. The correct course of action is immediate suspension of Spanish membership from all EU bodies until such time as democracy is restored. That's not going to happen. The government didn't "choose", the judicial system said the referendum is illegal and the enforcement of an illegal action is to prevent it. the eU backs spain.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:01
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Angry Lobster posted:
It's very interesting that you blame protestors because the police just can't help themselves and shouldn't be expected to not attack children.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:02
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Angry Lobster posted:But of course, let's put elders and children in the frontlines, they will look more pitiable when over zealous policemen smacks their heads with a boot or a rubber ball, it will only make our cause more just! What a bunch of miserable, power hungry bastards. The police don't have a license to shoot rubber bullets at children, regardless of where they're standing. You'll have to have a severely broken brain to excuse the Spanish government in this. They hosed up, they're in the wrong, gently caress them.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:05
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Pedro De Heredia posted:That's not going to happen. That is not true. The Spanish government chose not to give way for a legal referendum.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:06
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Pedro De Heredia posted:That's not going to happen. Plus a number of EU member states would be cutting their own throats by legitimizing a separatist movement.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:06
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Pedro De Heredia posted:That's not going to happen.  - "The idea is, we have a problem. If we solve it, there's no problem. If we ban it, it's the Catalans' problem!" - "Aren't you smart, Mr. Rajoy!" - "I've had good teachers." Edit: For non-Spaniards: The higher the court in Spain, the less independent it is. Mostly due to the fact that the 2 major parties appoint the judges. We are talking about a supreme court that has refused to investigate the creation of a political police by the Rajoy government, to make up dirt about their opponents. A judiciary that saw a prosecutors' rebellion because the anti-corruption prosecutor that the government was pushing for wanted to archive most of the governments' (massive) corruption cases. And a long list like that. We don't have an independent judiciary. And it isn't a suprise the EU backs Spain, itself not being democratic. Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 16:07
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It's also an insane point to make, as if Puigdemont personally invited over the Guardia Nacional to bash in elderly protesters' heads. They had the temerity to peacefully organize and participate in a democratic referendum, naturally they deserve to get the poo poo beaten out of them. They're clearly bleeding just to make a political point!
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Oct 1, 2017 16:10
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The police response is insane, but the democratic will of Spain and the democratic will of one of its regions are in conflict here. One isn't more democratic than the other.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:14
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Have a referendum in all of Spain.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:17
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if only the brexit referendum were this exciting
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Oct 1, 2017 16:19
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Phlegmish posted:It's also an insane point to make, as if Puigdemont personally invited over the Guardia Nacional to bash in elderly protesters' heads. They had the temerity to peacefully organize and participate in a democratic referendum, naturally they deserve to get the poo poo beaten out of them. They're clearly bleeding just to make a political point! The referendum was democratic in the same way Franco's were. That said, yeah, there is no loving excuse for having police charge citizens.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:21
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Sinteres posted:Plus a number of EU member states would be cutting their own throats by legitimizing a separatist movement. If the result is mass repression, we ought to cut their throats for them. Phlegmish posted:It's also an insane point to make, as if Puigdemont personally invited over the Guardia Nacional to bash in elderly protesters' heads. They had the temerity to peacefully organize and participate in a democratic referendum, naturally they deserve to get the poo poo beaten out of them. They're clearly bleeding just to make a political point! I mean, they unironically are bleeding to make a political point. It is now our responsibility to listen to them and do the right thing. Which again, is cutting all ties with the current and illegitimate government of Spain. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 16:21
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jBrereton posted:Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation from 1512... but German nationalism didn't exist before 1848... Can't tell if serious or not but "nation" means different things in different circumstances and the nation there is different than the nation in nationalism. Sometimes nation was used to express the existence of an elite group with power over the peasantry and which possessed ancestral rights. This would be the Polish and Lithuanian nations during the Commonwealth. Or the nation in Hungary. I would assume this is what nation meant in the context of the Holy Roman Empire particularly considering its multiethnic character. By contrast the nation in nationalism implies a mass nation where all parties are members of the nation rather than a narrow elite. You see that developing in the German lands during the Napoleonic wars, albeit one also sees Prussian nationalism in distinction to German nationalism emerge as well. See say Thomas Abbt. Similarly the object of nationalism can very. There's some pretty interesting work about "Ottoman nationalism" with the idea of an Ottoman nation state united by its connection to the dynasty but without expecting much ethnic or linguistic homogeneity.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:21
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YF-23 posted:You are doing a lot of bad equivocating here. Two things in particular: Of course they were never given a chance, the government never accepted to have a binding referendum over the independence of Catalonia as the independentists wanted (it goes against the Constitution) and the Catalan government never offered an alternative, instead they went on with the same plan (Sense desobedičncia no hi ha independčncia!), knowing perfectly that it was illegal and that the spanish government wont allow that, both sides wanted confrontation, no one blinked and no one backed down, so that's what we have now and that's all what we will have in the foreseeable future. YF-23 posted:Second, you are saying the political class on both sides is protected. But in the past few weeks, the police have arrested Catalan officials over this. And if Spain has its way it's near-certain that they will face a Spanish justice system that will desperately want to punish them for the referendum. Mariano Rajoy on the other hand is risking nothing if Catalonia does end up becoming independent. His political career will be over, sure, but then he can just retire and have a wank for the rest of his days and not give a poo poo. Rajoy is an idiot, sure, but not foolish enough to not act without the full backing of the law, and that's the focus of his position, the Catalan referendum, as it has always been proposed by the Catalan government, it's supposedly ilegal and goes against the Constitution (at least until the Consituional Court says so, until then it's suspended) and there's no way around that, heck even the lawyers of the catalan parliament and other catalan institutions (like the "Consell de Garanties Estatutaries") explicitly warned the Catalan government and parliament about the legal status of their position, but decided to go on and instead choose to opt for the call to disobedience and rousing the people against Spain. The day these politicians decide to put themselves in harm's way for their cause/vision I will start having some respect for them. Can we blame the Spanish government for being narrow-minded and politically brain dead about the whole thing? Yes, as it should be. Are the independentists innocent victims? Of course not, in my point of view, they share at least an equal part of blame in all this nonsense, there's been too much bad faith and manipulation over the years to be any other ways.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:27
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Fat Samurai posted:There is no census, no envelopes to vote with (so no privacy) and the people who were in charge of making sure the referendum result was real stepped down a week ago after facing heavy fines. lotta straight up false info in this here post I'm on the ground there and: - ballots printed at home aren't valid; centres that have had all their ballots confiscated have shut their doors - the urns aren't transparent, allowing the gov't to argue privacy is thus satisfied (yours to determine how convincing you find the argument, but you definitely can't read the ballots through 'em) - the Generalitat has activated a "universal census" whereby people who weren't able to vote in their assigned centre for a legit reason (e.g. because the police made off with the ballots) can get verified to vote in a different one. That depends on an electronic system that's down across large parts of the country though, so most people who were prevented from voting are SoL! e: and the national police claim they have 7 injured too. probably pulled muscles from working the ol' club-swinging arm too hard.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:34
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I don't know guys, noted defender of democracy and reasonable use of police force Manuel Valls says that Catalan independence would be the end of the EU  http://www.equinoxmagazine.fr/2017/09/27/manuel-valls-lindependance-catalane-cest-fin-de-leurope/
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Oct 1, 2017 16:36
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Its one of those times where both sides are bad,the independists started a good cause for bad reasons,but the spanish goverment reaction was beyond the pale.and most people expect a modicum of restrain and though from the side who is perceived as the most powerfull.rajoy and mas can both eat a bag of dicks though,and if the final outcame of this is the fall of both of them that just might be the only thing that stops this from spiraling further into a massive clusterfuck.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:42
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Altivia posted:e: and the national police claim they have 7 injured too. probably pulled muscles from working the ol' club-swinging arm too hard. All of the footage I've seen involved national police using their batons to beat the poo poo out of people who are just standing there, shouting and shoving at most, not even throwing anything. A loving battlefield with hundreds of wounded is what they call 'proporcionalidad'. Spain has just lost Catalonia for good.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:46
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It's a loving clusterfuck that never should have happened, to be honest I expected more death and destruction but I'm not exactly the trusting type, so whatever. It seems we can't have nice things, gently caress this gay earth.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:52
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Angry Lobster posted:Of course they were never given a chance, the government never accepted to have a binding referendum over the independence of Catalonia as the independentists wanted (it goes against the Constitution) and the Catalan government never offered an alternative, instead they went on with the same plan (Sense desobedičncia no hi ha independčncia!), knowing perfectly that it was illegal and that the spanish government wont allow that, both sides wanted confrontation, no one blinked and no one backed down, so that's what we have now and that's all what we will have in the foreseeable future. You're like the british blaming the colonialists for writing the declaration of independenc after being beat up and shot by the redcoats during their protests. None of this actually matters. What Matters is Spain has lost Catalonia for life. There is no way this doesn't devolve into a civil war or conflict of some kind. If Spain wins (likely) it will also turn Catalonia into an occupied territory with a defacto apartheid state - much like Palestine. Rajoy just destroyed Spanish Democracy as we know it and will go down as one of it's worst leaders in history. edit: Furthermore it's disgusting how propagandic El Pais and other Spanish Newspapers have become about this. They should be burned to the ground for their coverage. ThisIsWhyTrumpWon fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 16:53
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Angry Lobster posted:Of course they were never given a chance, the government never accepted to have a binding referendum over the independence of Catalonia as the independentists wanted (it goes against the Constitution) and the Catalan government never offered an alternative, instead they went on with the same plan (Sense desobedičncia no hi ha independčncia!), knowing perfectly that it was illegal and that the spanish government wont allow that, both sides wanted confrontation, no one blinked and no one backed down, so that's what we have now and that's all what we will have in the foreseeable future. quote:Rajoy is an idiot, sure, but not foolish enough to not act without the full backing of the law, and that's the focus of his position, the Catalan referendum, as it has always been proposed by the Catalan government, it's supposedly ilegal and goes against the Constitution (at least until the Consituional Court says so, until then it's suspended) and there's no way around that, heck even the lawyers of the catalan parliament and other catalan institutions (like the "Consell de Garanties Estatutaries") explicitly warned the Catalan government and parliament about the legal status of their position, but decided to go on and instead choose to opt for the call to disobedience and rousing the people against Spain. The day these politicians decide to put themselves in harm's way for their cause/vision I will start having some respect for them. I literally told you in the section you quoted that the independentist politicians are facing risks in the form of judicial retribution and that there have already been arrests over this. Did something loving happen in the last month or so and people have become incapable of basic comprehension or what? This is like the third time I see someone respond to a post without actually acknowledging its contents.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:57
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"well, both sides have their issues," muses the person contemplating the conflict between the people attempting to democratically vote on a referendum and the police who are bashing their heads in
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Oct 1, 2017 17:00
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Angry Lobster posted:But of course, let's put elders and children in the frontlines, they will look more pitiable when over zealous policemen smacks their heads with a boot or a rubber ball, it will only make our cause more just! What a bunch of miserable, power hungry bastards. Literally "look at what you made me do" on a national level jfc.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:01
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So chances of Terra Lliure coming back?
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Oct 1, 2017 17:04
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:edit: Furthermore it's disgusting how propagandic El Pais and other Spanish Newspapers have become about this. They should be burned to the ground for their coverage. There are Catalan newspapers covering the referendum in Spanish (I admit I don't know Catalan). I'm using La Vanguardia. Obviously biased as well, but less so than the Castilian papers; for example, they've reported on a pro-Spanish demonstration going on in the center of Barcelona.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:04
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Altivia posted:lotta straight up false info in this here post - I'm quoting Jordi Turull, spokesperson for the Generalitat on the "print your own ballot" thing. - The envelope works as a guarantee, not only because it allows you to vote without being seen but because 2 votes on the same envelope are void. Without the envelope, it falls on the people at the table to notice something is wrong. - Having transparent urns is another security measure that they are ignoring, thanks for reminding me. - No worries about the census, because you can just vote anywhere and as many times as you want, according to Societat Civil Catalana. Not sure how good their information is because the association is quite partisan. This would be worrisome enough when you're claiming to defend democracy, but the important bit is that there is no one checking that the entire process has a veneer of fairness. The people at the tables are all volunteers, there are no international organizations checking for fraud* and the guy who gets to count the votes will get fired if the answer is no. *There is a group of 14 (?) observers that the Generalitat has paid to supervise the voting. They are very few compared to what would usually come, and, again, they are being paid by an interested party. Both the UN and Carter Center had told the Generalitat to gently caress off because this is not a democratic procedure.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:11
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Anyone still arguing about legality has completely missed the point. This is no longer about legality, but about legitimacy. Perhaps there wasn't one, but there sure seems to be one now. vvvvv
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Oct 1, 2017 17:13
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YF-23 posted:So what recourse could the Catalan government have taken? It's not like they can force Spain to allow a referendum, not without massive radical action. And even then, we're seeing that now, and I'm not hearing the Spanish government say anything about how maybe they should have acted differently. None. There is no pressing humanitarian crisis in Catalonia that demanded immediate independence from Spain, or a referendum to happen now. It's not even like an overwhelming majority of Catalans have supported independence for decades and couldn't wait any longer. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 17:14
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:"well, both sides have their issues," muses the person contemplating the conflict between the people attempting to democratically vote on a referendum and the police who are bashing their heads in Democracy doesn't mean you wipe your rear end with the Constitution of the country. If Catalans launched a referendum that asked if all Jews should be expelled from the region, the Constitutional Court said 'uh you can't really do that', and they went ahead and tried to do the referendum anyway, no one would characterize it as 'an assault on democracy'.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:21
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YF-23 posted:So what recourse could the Catalan government have taken? It's not like they can force Spain to allow a referendum, not without massive radical action. And even then, we're seeing that now, and I'm not hearing the Spanish government say anything about how maybe they should have acted differently. Yes, I forgot about that, sorry, It's true some people have been arrested or fined for it, the arrested have been liberated while they wait for trial apparently. Some, like Josep Maria Jové (right-hand of Oriol Junqueras) have been cessated from his public office to protect him against further charges, others are asking people for donations to pay for the government fines. The point is, this is only the beggining. YF-23 posted:So what recourse could the Catalan government have taken? It's not like they can force Spain to allow a referendum, not without massive radical action. And even then, we're seeing that now, and I'm not hearing the Spanish government say anything about how maybe they should have acted differently. Not much else to be done really if your goal was to achieve independence right after the referendum, as neither side was willing to change it's position or even admit the other side had a point. ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:You're like the british blaming the colonialists for writing the declaration of independenc after being beat up and shot by the redcoats during their protests. I'm blaming everyone (including me) for being massive self-righteous bigots. I shouldn't be surpised but this kind of things anymore, to be honest. Also, fun side-note, I'm being told that because everyone's attention (including police) is directed towards voting, clubbing and the general clusterfuck, burglars are having a good day in some parts of the country-side.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:24
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Democracy doesn't mean you wipe your rear end with the Constitution of the country. lol comparing a right to vote for a state's independence to exiling jews.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:25
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Democracy doesn't mean you wipe your rear end with the Constitution of the country. How did you brain misfire so badly that you thought this was an appropriate comparison to make?
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Oct 1, 2017 17:26
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Democracy doesn't mean you wipe your rear end with the Constitution of the country. Nice Godwin right there. Here's the deal: I can find around 2 dozens articles of the constitution that are NEVER applied. No state religion, appropiate living conditions, wealth to be subordinated to the common good, public, peaceful gatherings, right to work, investment in R+D (it's in the constitution!!) and more. The parties in power and specially Rajoy's government wipe their rear end with the constitution ALL.THE.drat.TIME. Do you only care now? As someone said, legality is NOT the question here, it's legitimacy. I cannot accept that the people who abuse the law for their own ends all the time try to convince me that the law rules supreme. And for perspective, I'm from the deep south, not a Catalan.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:27
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Tell me, does the Spanish constitution have anything to say about sending in the gendarmes to brutalize an entire region and beat up citizens arbitrarily?
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Oct 1, 2017 17:31
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They fought the law and the law won. That's how it should be in a "Rechtsstaat" - If you think that Spain violates your rights, you even have the opportunity to go to European courts. You can't celebrate Trump being stopped by the courts but disrespect them when they strike down your illegal measures.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:33
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Democracy doesn't mean you wipe your rear end with the Constitution of the country. The provision against self-determination in the constitution is both illiberal and undemocratic itself. Certainly, most liberal democracies share the sentiment that territorial integrity is more important than these higher ideals, but they're also better at heading off secessionists before they get to this point and lay bare the contradiction for all to see.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:33
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Spangly A posted:It's very interesting that you blame protestors because the police just can't help themselves and shouldn't be expected to not attack children. I see y'all imported some American cops
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Oct 1, 2017 17:34
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YF-23 posted:So what recourse could the Catalan government have taken?
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Oct 1, 2017 17:34
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Cerebral Bore posted:How did you brain misfire so badly that you thought this was an appropriate comparison to make? It's a comparison in the sense that they aren't the same thing. That's the point. The point is that defending everything that's happening here (a regional government making a unilateral and unconstitutional push for independence, then carrying on a referendum that the courts have said should not continue and doesn't really have any legal validity) as just "well, people vote in democracies, right?" is simplistic to the point of complete uselessness. If someone wants to defend the actual situation as is, defend the idea of this referendum, under these terms, with this legality and this legitimacy, then sure.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:35
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