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Angry Lobster posted:Don't read too much into the ballot printing issue. In some places the vote was done written down in whatever piece of paper it was available after the ballots had been seized up by the police. Ahahah where are you getting these wild claims from, La Razón? Between this and the guy who thought people could vote multiple times because the Societat Civl Catalana - an anti-referendum entity that was approximately 0% involved in the actual organisation and didn't send a single observer - said so, I'm starting to question these forums' critical thinking skills. Altivia fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 11:29
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Full European Commission statementquote:European Commission - Statement Elman posted:Those results are in line with the 2015 elections' results which independentist parties declared to be a poll on separatism (they got <50% of the vote). Yeah this referendum was bullshit and had 0 legal warranties but that's irrelevant cause this was a protest, not a real poll. It succeeded in doing exactly what it intended to do. The thing is that it looks like a crazy scheme, but this is literally what the law passed by the pro-independence parties in the Catalan Parlament says ( "4. Si en el recompte dels vots vàlidament emesos n'hi ha més d'afirmatius que de negatius, el resultat implica la independència de Catalunya. A aquest efecte, el Parlament de Catalunya, dins els dos dies següents a la proclamació dels resultats oficials per la Sindicatura Electoral, celebrarà una sessió ordinària per efectuar la declaració formal de la independència de Catalunya, concretar els seus efectes i iniciar el procés constituent.") and so far they have shown themselves to be deadly serious about implementing it.
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Oct 2, 2017 11:31
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Altivia posted:Ahahah where are you getting these wild claims from, La Razón? Saw it yesterday with my own very eyes. I'm not saying it happened everywhere, just at the college I was, so it's purely anecdotical. Of course you're free to believe whatever you want. Angry Lobster fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 11:46
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This referendum being bollocks is hardly relevant to the situation as it's emerging anyway
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Oct 2, 2017 11:52
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Pissflaps posted:This seems to be true. Disappointing. Indeed. It is a sad day when the public services devolve into infighting rather than present a unified front to crush the seditious mob 
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Oct 2, 2017 11:55
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Elman posted:Those results are in line with the 2015 elections' results which independentist parties declared to be a poll on separatism (they got <50% of the vote). Yeah this referendum was bullshit and had 0 legal warranties but that's irrelevant cause this was a protest, not a real poll. It succeeded in doing exactly what it intended to do. The referendum itself had widespread support among the Catalan population regardless of voting intention, and any irregularities are 100% the fault of Madrid. Also, despite the insane police brutality, it still had millions of people casting legitimate votes. Turnout almost certainly would have been over 50% without the security forces cracking down and preventing/destroying ballots.
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Oct 2, 2017 11:58
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Angry Lobster posted:Saw it yesterday with my own very eyes. I'm not saying it happened everywhere, just at the college I was, so it's purely anecdotical. Of course you're free to believe whatever you want. You should probably report that, then. In the 4 centres across my town plus the other 5 or 6 in Barcelona that I had family/friends at the organisers were very clear only official ballots counted and that if they were requisitioned or ran out the voting wouldn't proceed. Of course, I suppose it's always possible that they were simply counted as "vot nul".
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Oct 2, 2017 12:01
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Altivia posted:You should probably report that, then. In the 4 centres across my town plus the other 5 or 6 in Barcelona that I had family/friends at the organisers were very clear only official ballots counted and that if they were requisitioned or ran out the voting wouldn't proceed. It was in a small town in Tarragona and they were overrun by the amount of people from other towns with closed colleges who wanted to vote. Maybe they counted the votes as null ones, as you say, honestly I don't know and it's just first-hand anecdotical evidence. To be honest, some irregularities are to be expected. It was a strange day all around.
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Oct 2, 2017 12:10
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Phlegmish posted:The referendum itself had widespread support among the Catalan population regardless of voting intention, and any irregularities are 100% the fault of Madrid. Also, despite the insane police brutality, it still had millions of people casting legitimate votes. Turnout almost certainly would have been over 50% without the security forces cracking down and preventing/destroying ballots. I support a proper referendum (and I don't mean that in a bullshit "all of Spain should vote" way). I'm just saying this wasn't it. It had no oversight, it was repressed by the police preventing people from voting, and turnout is irrelevant when most people who'd vote No refused to do so cause that'd only make it seem more legitimate. I still think this whole movement's bullshit demagogy promoted by Catalan politicians that are every bit as corrupt as Madrid's, and none of it will benefit the Catalan people. But by all means, let's impeach Rajoy, start negotiations and hold a proper, legal referendum so Catalan people can actually voice their opinion. I'm all for that. I'm pretty sure none of that's gonna happen, though.
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Oct 2, 2017 12:15
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Angry Lobster posted:It was in a small town in Tarragona and they were overrun by the amount of people from other towns with closed colleges who wanted to vote. Maybe they counted the votes as null ones, as you say, honestly I don't know and it's just first-hand anecdotical evidence. To be honest, some irregularities are to be expected. It was a strange day all around. In that case I apologise for getting glib with you. For what it's worth I hope stuff like that has been properly taken into account by the international observers that were in the region yesterday. I don't think there's been a full report yet, just some comments from the Slovenian ex-Minister of Foreign Affairs last night that the referendum as a whole had "happened normally on the whole despite significant challenges" or somesuch.
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Oct 2, 2017 12:31
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Altivia posted:In that case I apologise for getting glib with you. For what it's worth I hope stuff like that has been properly taken into account by the international observers that were in the region yesterday. I don't think there's been a full report yet, just some comments from the Slovenian ex-Minister of Foreign Affairs last night that the referendum as a whole had "happened normally on the whole despite significant challenges" or somesuch. Don't sweat it, there's a lot of anger flying around here and I'm afraid this whole thing will get even worse, we will see.
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Oct 2, 2017 12:45
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ThePariah posted:This feels like the start of a week where decades happen. Meanwhile Japan's party system is collapsing/completely realigning after a snap election is called,, also Abe might be gone soon along with the postwar Constitution, depending how the election turns out
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Oct 2, 2017 13:40
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fishmech posted:The abandonment of states based on defined historical or pseudohistorical nations and instead resting a vague sense of an undifferentiated "people"? Read your Benedict Anderson, the USA was the first modern nation, not France. Because nations are imaginary constructs people will create new ones
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Oct 2, 2017 13:41
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Pluskut Tukker posted:The thing is that it looks like a crazy scheme, but this is literally what the law passed by the pro-independence parties in the Catalan Parlament says ( "4. Si en el recompte dels vots vàlidament emesos n'hi ha més d'afirmatius que de negatius, el resultat implica la independència de Catalunya. A aquest efecte, el Parlament de Catalunya, dins els dos dies següents a la proclamació dels resultats oficials per la Sindicatura Electoral, celebrarà una sessió ordinària per efectuar la declaració formal de la independència de Catalunya, concretar els seus efectes i iniciar el procés constituent.") and so far they have shown themselves to be deadly serious about implementing it. Looks like I was mistaken; never mind what the law says, Puigdemont is calling for international mediation first (Spanish source) for negotiations between the Catalan regional government and the Spanish national government; if the Spanish government refuses, the Catalan Parlament will unilaterally declare independence anyway. The negotiation would have to involve actual discussions of Catalan sovereignty; according to Puigdemont, the Catalans didn't go and vote merely to get financial concessions. He also wants the Guardia Civil and the extra police out of Catalonia. The EU is ruled out as a possible mediator though it would have to recognise the process. Chances of Madrid agreeing to this are.... not high I guess.
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Oct 2, 2017 13:44
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Mans posted:take this tom clancy poo poo out of here. There won't be a successful coup, but there will be a failed one that leads to the rise of a populist strongman ala Erdogan who fancies himself the reviver of the Hapsburg world monarchy and cosplays as Charles V icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 13:51
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Looks like I was mistaken; never mind what the law says, Puigdemont is calling for international mediation first (Spanish source) for negotiations between the Catalan regional government and the Spanish national government; if the Spanish government refuses, the Catalan Parlament will unilaterally declare independence anyway. The negotiation would have to involve actual discussions of Catalan sovereignty; according to Puigdemont, the Catalans didn't go and vote merely to get financial concessions. He also wants the Guardia Civil and the extra police out of Catalonia. The EU is ruled out as a possible mediator though it would have to recognise the process. Chances of Madrid agreeing to this are.... not high I guess.
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Oct 2, 2017 13:52
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icantfindaname posted:Meanwhile Japan's party system is collapsing/completely realigning after a snap election is called,, also Abe might be gone soon along with the postwar Constitution, depending how the election turns out I saw him announcing the elections on the news and all I could wonder is "did he not see what happened in the UK?". A good reason to start following the J-Pol thread I guess, to see if hubris is once again given a slap to the face OR if he actually made a smart move. Edit: Some quick catching up makes it seems like it's nothing like the UK and your comment about "collapsing/completely realigning" is spot on. Good luck with that one, jeez. Mierenneuker fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 13:58
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VitalSigns posted:Props for the most creative defense of police brutality I've seen in a while, I hope this catches on in D&D. Electronico6 posted:I hope Catalonia gets it's independence, and Spain falls into a blackhole or something, but not before returning Olivença to it's rightful and lawful owner Portugal. Spare Galiza and agreed.
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Oct 2, 2017 14:56
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Mans posted:Spare Galiza and agreed. Comedy option: ask the Galizians who they want to be with. Then sit down and enjoy the show. (Note for non-iberians: the stereotype is that Galizians are indecisive)
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Oct 2, 2017 14:59
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Mans posted:D&D was filled with communists a few years ago and since we're now in the Milos Alt Right internet fad phase everyone in D&D is a radical centrist who is just a hair away from being openly fashy. you'll find all 3 of the centrists probably aren't fascists. the rest are still commies
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Oct 2, 2017 15:01
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Considering how the PP have been attacking Podemos (who are not good people) The gently caress is this poo poo?
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Oct 2, 2017 15:06
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Mans posted:D&D was filled with communists a few years ago and since we're now in the Milos Alt Right internet fad phase everyone in D&D is a radical centrist who is just a hair away from being openly fashy. All the communists went to CSPAM, except UKMT which is still very much the UK Marxism thread.
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Oct 2, 2017 15:10
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Catalonia declaring itself independent won't have any tangible effect. No other nation will recognise their sovereignty so declaring independence is really pointless and just for appearance. What could a self declared independent Catalonia actually achieve? If some kind of make shift border is set up the Spanish police/army will have it down in minutes. Despite all this violence and strong feeling my bet is that nothing changes, whatever the politicians say. Probably the only result is a slightly more lovely life for the people of Catalonia as the Spanish government cracks down on the region.
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Oct 2, 2017 15:18
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icantfindaname posted:Read your Benedict Anderson, the USA was the first modern nation, not France. Because nations are imaginary constructs people will create new ones My favorite episode of the creation of the USA is when they decided not to annex all of Mexico because it was just too full of icky mestizos. (Calhoun's speech to Congress, January 4, 1848)
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Oct 2, 2017 15:27
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Mans posted:Spare Galiza and agreed. Santiago is in Galiza, which cuts into Fatima's Religious tourism and gift shop economy. It has to sink into oblivion too.
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Oct 2, 2017 15:30
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Mans posted:Yeah don't trust a government that cracks open skulls of old ladies sitting in a bench because they wanted to put a paper in a ballot. hey man that old woman was asking for it because she didn't turn in an already sealed envelope with a PP ballot inside. This is a thing that happens in Spain during elections, entire nursing homes are emptied out and bused to voting locations where the elderly who have no idea where they are or why they're there are conveniently handed a sealed envelope with a PP ballot already inside as soon as they come off the bus. Bastion of democracy, Spain. Comparisons in this thread between Rajoy and Maduro made me loving lol on the bus to work today. Yeah, Venezuela has been the boogeyman/scapegoat used by the Spanish mainstream media for a while now, even before Podemos, yet that didn't stop the Spanish government authorizing sales of riot gear and tear gas to the very same hostile, authoritarian regime for years. Rajoy isn't a caudillo dictating ex cathedra under the delusion of having a popular mandate; he's a bumbling, corrupt career politician calling the police brutality yesterday appropriate because busting dissident heads is a time-honored tradition among Spanish security forces and that poo poo hasn't changed since Franco if you can believe it. Sure, there are no grey shirts "disappearing" people from their homes in the middle of the night anymore, because social and economic oppression is systemic in the way Spain works politically. You can see it in how the comunidades autonomas have always chafed under Madrid's authority. Keep in mind that the Spanish National Police recently updated the font on the ID numbers on riot gear to the loving Terminator font, making it even harder to identify cops throwing people down the stairs in a public school or beating up helpless bystanders: http://www.publico.es/tremending/20...a-ser-ilegible/ AceOfFlames posted:gently caress gently caress gently caress FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK Nah man, these people have always been here, I'll reiterate my previous theory that Spain is so uniquely hosed as a modern nation precisely because the fascists won here. Young people, several generations removed, chanting Cara al Sol and throwing up their arms in a "Arriba Espana" motion because their facha grandparents would always go on about how things were better in the old days, when men were machos, women were either whores, mothers, or nuns, and there was nary a moro (pejorative term for Moroccans) in sight. Once again, these people are loving douchebags, but that didn't stop Esperanza Aguirre, ex-President of the Comunidad de Madrid, who has yet to be indicted in the many, many corruption cases involving Partido Popular (but all her proteges and dear personal friends have been), from showing up and lending her support: https://twitter.com/MareasCiudadana/status/914253007658930176
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Oct 2, 2017 15:31
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Pedro De Heredia posted:They can argue fairly easily that there's not a lot of guarantees for the integrity of the results. The Spanish government can try to do that, but their argument has absolutely zero legitimacy when they themselves were a huge part of why the vote lacked integrity.
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Oct 2, 2017 15:45
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Mierenneuker posted:Edit: Some quick catching up makes it seems like it's nothing like the UK and your comment about "collapsing/completely realigning" is spot on. Good luck with that one, jeez. I think it's actually possible (though maybe not likely) that the LDP will end up as the more liberal party, possibly aligned with the left-wing split of the DP, while Mehara's split of the DP and Koike will be the right-wing party. The liberal/centrist wing of the LDP is finally getting tired of Abe and will probably force him out when his term ends in 2018, unless this election goes very well for them. There's precedent for this, in the 90s when the LDP split the first time the LDP went to the Socialists to form a grand coalition to combat the members who left. Koike is as right-wing as Abe on constitutional issues, and this caused the split in the DP as she refused/is refusing to allow DP members who aren't in favor of revision into her party, so you very well might see a liberal LDP administration led by Fumio Kishida and supported by the left DP split that does a 180 on the constitution and runs as its defender against Koike and Maehara The fact that that's even conceptually possible is pretty nuts IMO, even if it's not likely to happen
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Oct 2, 2017 15:47
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this is a pretty obvious point, but it's a good concise cartoon so... http://www.kroll.be/index.php?option=dessindujour&Id=2578  *"Previously, I was unsure whether we should be independent." "Now I am. " Also, good twitter thread: https://twitter.com/nandorvila/status/914534982793576448 https://twitter.com/nandorvila/status/914536150559285249 https://twitter.com/nandorvila/status/914536980066689025 https://twitter.com/nandorvila/status/914537934073815041 https://twitter.com/nandorvila/status/914538422269816832 https://twitter.com/nandorvila/status/914538959367229443 https://twitter.com/nandorvila/status/914540335136518145 double nine fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 16:00
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Venezuela is the boogeyman for all seasons.
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Oct 2, 2017 16:02
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"Rajoy's government is fascistic, but left-wing nationalism is worse" - a Reasonable, Serious Adult
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Oct 2, 2017 16:10
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icantfindaname posted:"Rajoy's government is fascistic, but left-wing nationalism is worse" - a Reasonable, Serious Adult
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Oct 2, 2017 16:20
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icantfindaname posted:"Rajoy's government is fascistic, but left-wing nationalism is worse" - a Reasonable, Serious Adult Cool your hot takes, that's not what he says at all. https://twitter.com/nandorvila/status/914539968382386177 What he is saying is that the Catalan indy movement is not a left-wing movement.
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Oct 2, 2017 16:21
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In European political discourse, "liberal" and especially "neoliberal" are definitely not left-wing. "Liberalizing" something means destroying any sort of regulation and oversight that could have been there before. Basically, when a European say "liberal", you should think "conservative". Also neoliberalism is a precursor to fascism in 100% of the case. Undeniable historical fact.
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Oct 2, 2017 16:26
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icantfindaname posted:"Rajoy's government is fascistic, but left-wing nationalism is worse" - a Reasonable, Serious Adult Liberals are right wing bro.
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Oct 2, 2017 17:11
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Liberal / neoliberal in most of the civilized world is a byword for terrible centre-right policies. Its only in America where you lack any sort of actual left-wing political parties or policies that its considered anywhere near "left". And thats only in comparison to your Republicans, who are literally insane maniacs who wave guns around during campaign rallies[1]. [1]https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017/09/26/alabama-runoff-candidate-roy-moore-pulls-gun-out-campaign-rally/703313001/#
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Oct 2, 2017 17:14
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Catalanism runs the gamut from the far left to the center-right. It is not tied to any particular idelogy outside of itself, though fascists consistently seem to be opposed to it. You had guys in white power apparel burning Catalan flags in Barcelona yesterday.
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Oct 2, 2017 17:24
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Man ,two nationalist-neoliberal movements butting heads.rip spain
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Oct 2, 2017 17:27
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Let's all agree to stop using the following words, in perpetuity: - left - right - liberal - conservative Maybe then we can actually start communicating with each other instead of tilting endlessly against our own windmills.
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Oct 2, 2017 17:43
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mobby_6kl posted:They should get Russia to mediate. Catalonia Oblast returns to the embrace of Mother Russia.
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Oct 2, 2017 17:46
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