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enraged_camel posted:As a Turkish person I was annoyed she called Istanbul "Constantinople". How far is it to Batman from where you are? And why do you not live there?
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Oct 1, 2017 04:45
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enraged_camel posted:Yeah I know, I was joking. (Actually, so was I. "Why'd they change it? I can't say. People just liked it better that way." Istanbul (Not Constantinople) 1953 Jimmy Kennedy/Nat Simon)
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Oct 1, 2017 04:54
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homullus posted:I can't say. People just liked it better that way. 
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Oct 1, 2017 04:54
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BiggerBoat posted:He was fantastic and that's what I mean. I think it's going to be good. I go back to the idea that 90% of the criticism about these shows comes down to whether there was a good villain serving as a foil for the hero. People liked DD S2 when it was DD vs Punisher but not DD vs Hand. People liked Luke Cage vs Cottonmouth but not vs Diamondback. The high points of Iron Fist were when the Wards were hamming it up as villains and distracting from Danny vs The Hand. To that end I really have no idea how Punisher is going to work out because I have no sense of who the villain is. A lot of people like the idea of Punisher and Bernthal's performance as him so far, but its really hard to judge how that will play as the hero in his own story with his own foil as opposed to a foil for DD. But I'm sure the reviews will be better just for "He shot a bunch of people!" Doctor Butts posted:My issue with Alexandra is that I never really understood what led her to the myopic goal of risking her, and the rest of the Hand's leadership's lives to create the Black Sky. The Hand wanted to get back to Kun Lun to steal their secrets/magic, specifically their immortal dragon bone juice so they could keep living forever. There seemed to be a bit of nostalgia in some of them about their old home but their motivation was clearly "poo poo, we're out of the poo poo we stole when we left." Alexandra was recklessly speeding up the timeline on it because she was dying so she needed way more of the magic dragon bone stuff than what they had.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:49
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Lurdiak posted:In what universe was Sigourney Weaver's character an exciting new villain? The universe where instead of being a normal immortal leader of the Hand she's actually Mefisto summoned using the Black Sun's power. You can keep the Elektra Resurrection by the Hand stuff and explain it as Stick was using specially enchanted Arrows to remove the Black Sun power from that kid he killed and thus Elektra being taken means they can resurrect her with the Black Sun Magic still in her. Makes the Black Sun something more than just a better Ninja Fighter too and explains the Hand's Evil as being a cult to Marve's Demon Ruler of Hell. Also remove the Dragon Bone stuff and instead have their Immortality etc all be Demon Ninja Magic. Black Suns are "children" of Mefisto somehow.
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Oct 2, 2017 07:30
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STAC Goat posted:
It's the Punisher
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Oct 2, 2017 11:47
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The Villain is the justice system.
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Oct 2, 2017 11:57
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Maybe the real villain is the friends we made along the way.
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Oct 2, 2017 12:42
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The villain is the act of murder. An act which cannot be redeemed once you've crossed it.
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Oct 2, 2017 12:54
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Rocksicles posted:My Greek boss has a different take on that... Yeah, Greeks still don't refer to that city as Istanbul. It's either Constantinopolis or (less often nowadays) "Poli".
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Oct 2, 2017 13:09
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STAC Goat posted:To that end I really have no idea how Punisher is going to work out because I have no sense of who the villain is. Jigsaw, and/or the CIA - it's not clear whether Jigsaw is working for the CIA or not, but he's a former comrade of Frank's from Iraq who was part of the same black op that's now trying to silence Frank and is now the head of a Blackwater-style PMC that's hunting him.
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Oct 2, 2017 14:06
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AbstractNapper posted:Yeah, Greeks still don't refer to that city as Istanbul. It's either Constantinopolis or (less often nowadays) "Poli". That's why their country went down the shitter. They don't even know the correct names of cities!
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Oct 2, 2017 14:26
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That's why they consider the Punisher to be an anti-hero, because although he does combat criminals and villains, he crosses lines that other heroes do not cross, so you got other heroes like daredevil trying to help him and get him to not kill n' poo poo. Although if we're going to include the recent marvel movies, really every one of those guys have killed before, accidentally or otherwise, so I don't know. Fargin Icehole fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 03:56
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Fargin Icehole posted:That's why they consider the Punisher to be an anti-hero, because although he does combat criminals and villains, he crosses lines that other heroes do not abide by. Even a character who's ok with killing a villain to stop their rampage or an enemy soldier in wartime is a far cry from a serial killer who murders people in their beds because of past crimes.
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Oct 3, 2017 04:10
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Frank is definitely not an anti-hero. He's a villain whose interests, but not methods, occasionally align with those of heroes, and only because he is driven by a sense of justice rather than, say, the sheer desire for chaos and suffering or the goal of personal gain at the expense of everything else. The reason he worked so well in DD2 is because his character was both well-written and well-acted. This made the audience sympathize with and maybe even root for him, which is very rare in the comics universe, and in storytelling in general.
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Oct 3, 2017 04:17
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Lurdiak posted:Even a character who's ok with killing a villain to stop their rampage or an enemy soldier in wartime is a far cry from a serial killer who murders people in their beds because of past crimes. Well yeah, that's why he's an unsavory fellow. But I think the plain human nature of feeling justified in taking revenge, most heroes always trying to find a way to solve conflicts, AND said heroes usually combating other villains with similar powers, without killing anybody is probably the main reasons why Punisher is such a hit. It's a hit because it's different. He has no superpowers and he finds a way to take down criminal organizations and super villains alike also has that underdog element to it. enraged_camel posted:Frank is definitely not an anti-hero. He's a villain whose interests, but not methods, occasionally align with those of heroes, and only because he is driven by a sense of justice rather than, say, the sheer desire for chaos and suffering or the goal of personal gain at the expense of everything else. Maybe it's the strict set of rules that comics followed, but generally I always saw it as: Heroes: Never kill unless they want shock value Anti-Heroes:Straight up kill villains Villains: Explicitly, willingly, and eagerly places innocent people in harms way to get what they want. I never really saw Frank Castle as a villain, just a hero whose methods are so extreme and distasteful, heroes treat him as a menace despite the fact heroes are also taking the law into their own hands. But he never kills an innocent person...Unless he does for the shock value, just like the hero. I can count on one hand though when they tried that bullshit, and i'm including movies, punisher max, and the regular comics. Fargin Icehole fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 04:24
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Fargin Icehole posted:Maybe it's the strict set of rules that comics followed, but generally I always saw it as: Antiheroes do the right thing for the wrong reasons, which are often selfish. For example, a guy who knocks out a bunch of gangsters in the unit upstairs because they are making too much noise and not letting him sleep would be an antihero. Frank, in contrast, does the wrong thing for the right reasons. He is clearly driven by a strong sense of justice, but his method of delivering that justice is grossly and inexcusably inhumane. Where Daredevil is always conflicted about the fact that he is a vigilante, and often times hesitates and refrains from crossing certain lines, Frank basically has no brakes. He regularly commits pre-meditated murder because in his mind it is justified.
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Oct 3, 2017 04:47
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I feel like heroes having a strict 'no killing ever' rule isn't necessary or very smart/realistic when dealing with supervillains that can and do kill dozens, hundreds, thousands, or even millions if left unchecked. Just avoiding killing if there's any other alternative seems like it'd be enough. The problem with the Punisher isn't that he kills, it's that he goes out of his way to kill. With such a massive body count chances are he'll end up killing innocent people that just SEEM guilty, too - there's a reason the death penalty allows appeals. So I lean more towards him being borderline villain protagonist than just 'anti-hero'.
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Oct 3, 2017 04:53
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enraged_camel posted:Frank, in contrast, does the wrong thing for the right reasons. He is clearly driven by a strong sense of justice, but his method of delivering that justice is grossly and inexcusably inhumane. Where Daredevil is always conflicted about the fact that he is a vigilante, and often times hesitates and refrains from crossing certain lines, Frank basically has no brakes. He regularly commits pre-meditated murder because in his mind it is justified. Is there a catchy name like "antihero" for people like Frank?
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Oct 3, 2017 08:17
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TVTropes calls the "right thing, wrong reasons" stripe a classical anti-hero and the inverse a "nineties anti-hero" (as 90s comics basically popularized that usage of "anti-hero").
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Oct 3, 2017 09:35
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Wolpertinger posted:I feel like heroes having a strict 'no killing ever' rule isn't necessary or very smart/realistic when dealing with supervillains that can and do kill dozens, hundreds, thousands, or even millions if left unchecked. Just avoiding killing if there's any other alternative seems like it'd be enough. The problem with the Punisher isn't that he kills, it's that he goes out of his way to kill. With such a massive body count chances are he'll end up killing innocent people that just SEEM guilty, too - there's a reason the death penalty allows appeals. So I lean more towards him being borderline villain protagonist than just 'anti-hero'. Yeah, but the whole point of sticking to the no killing rule is that, no matter what happens, the heroes have drawn that line in the sand to separate themselves from the villains, and as a nice watchdog to keep any of them from becoming someone like Castle.
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Oct 3, 2017 10:00
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Samizdata posted:Yeah, but the whole point of sticking to the no killing rule is that, no matter what happens, the heroes have drawn that line in the sand to separate themselves from the villains, and as a nice watchdog to keep any of them from becoming someone like Castle. Then you've also got folks like Daredevil, who generally adhere to not deliberately setting out to kill people, but if the bad guy dies during the fight they won't shed any tears.
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Oct 3, 2017 14:02
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And also there's something to be said for all the dudes they have left paralyzed or brain dead in hospital wards. You can't be in the business of concussion distribution without actually cracking some eggs now and again.
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Oct 3, 2017 14:08
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Daredevil is a dude who won't kill but will smash a carbon fiber rod over a dude's head 6 times in a row.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:30
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HIJK posted:Daredevil is a dude who won't kill but will smash a carbon fiber rod over a dude's head 6 times in a row. Pretty good avatar pic / post content combo.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:52
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:TVTropes calls the "right thing, wrong reasons" stripe a classical anti-hero and the inverse a "nineties anti-hero" (as 90s comics basically popularized that usage of "anti-hero"). TV tropes is stupid.
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Oct 3, 2017 17:02
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Habibi posted:Pretty good avatar pic / post content combo. "it's only a liiiiiittle brain damage"
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Oct 3, 2017 17:32
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Isn't this explicitly called out in DD when the throws that triad member down to trash from rooftop?
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Oct 3, 2017 18:08
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There's no CTE in the netflix Marvel Universe. You only get that from a lack of oxygen.
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Oct 3, 2017 18:21
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GuyUpNorth posted:Isn't this explicitly called out in DD when the throws that triad member down to trash from rooftop? Yeah, Nurse Plot-Contrivance totally calls him out on it.
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Oct 3, 2017 18:22
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GuyUpNorth posted:Isn't this explicitly called out in DD when the throws that triad member down to trash from rooftop? Cool tough guy moment for Matt and also a reminder that he's the protagonist but not a nice person. God I miss DeKnight
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Oct 3, 2017 18:36
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Matt applies comic book legal logic to himself in these situations: if he can't see a corpse then they did not die.
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Oct 3, 2017 19:02
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I mean, Daredevil's whole categorization is about his hosed up ethics and he's got people on both ends of the spectrum from priests and healers to assassins and serial killers all pointing out how hosed up his rationalizations are.
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Oct 3, 2017 19:13
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 luke cage season 2
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Oct 5, 2017 02:06
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NYCC Punisher panel cancelled, for reasons you can probably guess http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/marvels-punisher-1202581153/
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Oct 5, 2017 02:14
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Barry Convex posted:NYCC Punisher panel cancelled, for reasons you can probably guess And yet: https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/916317209017937920
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Oct 6, 2017 23:42
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This is really weird and semi disturbing.
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Oct 7, 2017 00:36
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well that's loving disturbing
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Oct 7, 2017 00:49
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"Ludicrous swan dive into cartoon villainy" is the official backpedal of corporations in 2017
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Oct 7, 2017 01:44
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It's not exactly offbrand tbh. But I guess it does show up this kind of cancellation gesture to be genuinely hollow, at least where Marvel's concerned. Sure, cancel a panel, but why lose money? Gun violence is just the cost of doing business. Fuckers.
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Oct 7, 2017 04:19
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