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There was a protest in the news floor because the journalists were too ashamed of the coverage tho.
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Oct 3, 2017 07:12
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kustomkarkommando posted:Are the c's still sticking to their guns on backing rajoy on this? I know he's not exactly under threat (even with podemos calling for another no confidence) but has the general all sides backlash in Catalonia influenced then (considering they originated from Bracelona) They are backing a way for the Spanish government to force new elections in Catalonia. Their public reasoning is that they think they can win a majority in Catalonia, which is truly insane.
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Oct 3, 2017 09:24
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Pedro De Heredia posted:They are backing a way for the Spanish government to force new elections in Catalonia. Their public reasoning is that they think they can win a majority in Catalonia, which is truly insane. Their not so secret reasoning is that it would boost their image in the rest of Spain.
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Oct 3, 2017 09:34
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I thought the Catalan government was going to declare independence the day after the vote? What's the delay?
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Oct 3, 2017 09:38
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They were supposed to do it within 48h, yeah. Puigdemont said that they would try to have the EU mediate and declare independence unilaterally without a response from the Spanish government.
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Oct 3, 2017 09:48
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The EU said they wouldn't recognize Catalonia as an independent state if they declare independence unilaterally, and they haven't given any indication that they're interested in mediating, so that's a problem.
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Oct 3, 2017 09:57
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Fat Samurai posted:Their not so secret reasoning is that it would boost their image in the rest of Spain. Until Catalonia fully breaks from Spain.
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Oct 3, 2017 09:58
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Pissflaps posted:I thought the Catalan government was going to declare independence the day after the vote? What's the delay? That was before the central government decided to help the separatists as much as possible during the referendum. Now they are calling for Europe to mediate in a negotiation that would end with an independent Catalonia (i.e. they don't want to negotiate, the same way the government says they want to negotiate "within the boundaries of the law"). Technically they are waiting for the official results (because a 40% mistake was possible, apparently).in truth, the proposed unilateral Declaration of Independence was a pipe-dream from the start. Politicians backpedalling on their promises shouldn't be a surprise, specially now that they have popular opinion on their favor and some breathing room. Pedro De Heredia posted:Until Catalonia fully breaks from Spain. But they tried to prevent it! Not their fault at all!
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Oct 3, 2017 09:59
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All that is needed for Catalan to secure independence is to be recognized by France. My guess is the Catalan government is talking with the French government to see if they will be recognized if they declare independence.
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Oct 3, 2017 10:01
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Macron aint gonna recognize poo poo tho
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Oct 3, 2017 10:06
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It seems like a great way for France to get the Corsicans to start arming up again. They've already made noises in that direction.
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Oct 3, 2017 10:11
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I miss a piece of context, which is: how many regions have a strong (or, at least, existing) separatist current? I know about the Basque Country, but I don't know about the others. After the events of Sunday, is any other region starting to think the central agenda isn't really working in their favor? Because another question springs to mind: how come noone's pointing out the massive political failure of the Spanish government? Is the Catalonian desire for separation a lone outlier?
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Oct 3, 2017 10:15
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Fat Samurai posted:That was before the central government decided to help the separatists as much as possible during the referendum. Now they are calling for Europe to mediate in a negotiation that would end with an independent Catalonia (i.e. they don't want to negotiate, the same way the government says they want to negotiate "within the boundaries of the law"). Actually they're still saying they'll do it, it just has to go through parliament first (that's tomorrow). It may be a bluff and they really just mean to negotiate, but I wouldn't bet on that.
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Oct 3, 2017 10:20
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Char posted:I miss a piece of context, which is: how many regions have a strong (or, at least, existing) separatist current? I know about the Basque Country, but I don't know about the others. There are separatist currents in the other parts of the "Catalan Countries", i.e. the (at least partially) catalan speaking parts of Spain, which is the País Valenciá and the Balearic Isles. And there are the Basque Country and Galicia. And if your definition of "existing" is a bit more loose, basically everywhere else too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalisms_and_regionalisms_of_Spain All of these movements are significantly less active and widespread than those in Catalonia and the Basque Country though, are the only regions where regionalist parties are regularly more successful than the regular Spanish parties. Char posted:Because another question springs to mind: how come noone's pointing out the massive political failure of the Spanish government? Is the Catalonian desire for separation a lone outlier? Because massive political failure is the default state of the Spanish government. Peggotty fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 10:31
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Elman posted:Actually they're still saying they'll do it, it just has to go through parliament first (that's tomorrow). Then they had to answer the hard questions like "what's our national currency", "how are we going to deal with the Spanish army in bases in Barcelona" and "what will happen when Spain cuts the money we're using to pay our pharmacies". I mean, they can say whatever they drat please, but two weeks ago Oriol Junqueras and Puigdemont contradicted each other on whether Cataluña will have an army or not. This is not a very well thought out exit plan. At this point, I'm just here for the fireworks. I've given up on our politicians having a modicum of care and respect for their citizens.
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Oct 3, 2017 10:43
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qkkl posted:All that is needed for Catalan to secure independence is to be recognized by France. My guess is the Catalan government is talking with the French government to see if they will be recognized if they declare independence. France doesn't have any interest in encouraging regional separatism; what with Corsica and, to a lesser extent, Brittany. Also the outre-mer. There are independentists pretty much everywhere except perhaps St. Pierre & Miquelon. Speaking of which, New Caledonia has a referendum that should happen by 2018 IIRC. Last I checked the forecast on it was a solid "no" victory but stuff like this can change quickly. Char posted:Because another question springs to mind: how come noone's pointing out the massive political failure of the Spanish government? Is the Catalonian desire for separation a lone outlier? Officially? I think other heads of states/governments in Europe aren't especially eager to "attack" one of theirs; especially with the Brexit negotiations ongoing, as it is important to appear to be tightly united. Plus it would largely be an exercise in getting glass house dwellers to cast stones, IMO. I mean, sure, Spain is worse than most; but it's not like any of them has its closets devoid of skeletons.
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Oct 3, 2017 10:46
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Why is the default reaction from any central government when a region makes noises about independence to be such colossal shitheads that it makes more people hate them and want independence? It's really making Scottish devolution and indyref look like an absolute stroke of genius from the UK gov in comparison.
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Oct 3, 2017 10:54
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lost in postation posted:They were supposed to do it within 48h, yeah. Puigdemont said that they would try to have the EU mediate and declare independence unilaterally without a response from the Spanish government. Technically the official results haven't been announced yet, I thought? Those last 15,000 votes are proving really hard to count, guys! On a more serious note, if they declare independence without any sort of negotiation period I doubt it'll work, and it'll provide exactly the right excuse to invoke article 155. I'd say the most likely course of action is they'll declare a transition period where negotiations with the state happen and at the end of which Catalonia might or might not become independent, depending on how they go. That lets Catalonia claim the moral high ground again because they're the ones holding out the olive branch. It also gives more breathing room to make sure new institutions like the catalan tax agency can work as intended if/when the time comes.
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Oct 3, 2017 10:58
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Just let every separatist group get their own country, and form some kind of unifying EU government to facilitate relations between the newly balkanized Europe.
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Oct 3, 2017 10:59
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Why is the default reaction from any central government when a region makes noises about independence to be such colossal shitheads that it makes more people hate them and want independence? because governments love not losing their land (plus having your territory is actually useful for things) and if any regional faction that self identifies as an independent country actually gets to have an independent country then all countries will implode as we approch the end state of one sovereign nation per person. also crush the traitors
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Oct 3, 2017 11:00
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:because governments love not losing their land (plus having your territory is actually useful for things) and if any regional faction that self identifies as an independent country actually gets to have an independent country then all countries will implode as we approch the end state of one sovereign nation per person. Seems to me that the best way to avoid that though is to grant them a referendum as quickly as possible whilst the general population aren't as bothered about it so they can lose it.
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Oct 3, 2017 11:11
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That worked great with Brexit.
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Oct 3, 2017 11:14
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I don't think even a central government-approved referendum that drew more than 40% of the electorate would have helped in Catalonia's case. It's a pretty unique combination of very harsh repression of local culture within living memory and the region actually being half-viable economically (or dragged down by the rest of Spain, if you ask the more liberal independentists).
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Oct 3, 2017 11:19
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Altivia posted:On a more serious note, if they declare independence without any sort of negotiation period I doubt it'll work, and it'll provide exactly the right excuse to invoke article 155. I'd say the most likely course of action is they'll declare a transition period where negotiations with the state happen and at the end of which Catalonia might or might not become independent, depending on how they go. That lets Catalonia claim the moral high ground again because they're the ones holding out the olive branch. It also gives more breathing room to make sure new institutions like the catalan tax agency can work as intended if/when the time comes. That would be the smart thing to do, but it's unlikely. There's a very real incentive problem here. The best solution for almost everyone involved, in the long run, would result in a pretty severe downgrade from their initial positions. All of the different groups involved have incentives not to take that downgrade, and to continue 'escaping forward'. The different parties in Catalonia aren't going to do something that allows Catalonia as a whole to claim the moral high ground, they're going to do something that doesn't result in those parties' voters deserting them immediately for reneging on their promises. It's not easy for the current Catalan government to have 'negotiations at the end of which Catalonia might or might not become independent' because they blatantly broke the law, tons of people could go to jail or get fined unless they achieve independence. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 11:20
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DXH posted:hey man that old woman was asking for it because she didn't turn in an already sealed envelope with a PP ballot inside. This is a thing that happens in Spain during elections, entire nursing homes are emptied out and bused to voting locations where the elderly who have no idea where they are or why they're there are conveniently handed a sealed envelope with a PP ballot already inside as soon as they come off the bus. Bastion of democracy, Spain. I have never seen this kind of thing in Portugal and we had a fascist dictatorship as well. At the very most you get a bunch of oldies like my parents who think "Salazar was nothing like the crooks today!" and think the Tejo Bridge should be renamed after him because "he built it!", not support from the general population! Or am I so alienated from my countrymen that o did not notice? (I readily admit knowing a lot more about the US than my own country. It's not my fault Portuguese websites suck)
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Oct 3, 2017 11:24
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"Spain is so uniquely hosed because the fascists won here", a few days after Germany elects ultra right-wing neonazis to its parliament.
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Oct 3, 2017 11:26
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Pedro De Heredia posted:"Spain is so uniquely hosed because the fascists won here", a few days after Germany elects ultra right-wing neonazis to its parliament. well the nazis in germany don't get to do anything in parliament besides annoying everyone else for fifteen minutes during their speaking time/by submitting a request for merkel to stop doing chemtrails
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Oct 3, 2017 11:33
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Spain is a country where accusations of being a fascist are as common as saying 'hello'.
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Oct 3, 2017 11:37
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So it's like every other country then?
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Oct 3, 2017 11:58
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lost in postation posted:I don't think even a central government-approved referendum that drew more than 40% of the electorate would have helped in Catalonia's case. It's a pretty unique combination of very harsh repression of local culture within living memory and the region actually being half-viable economically (or dragged down by the rest of Spain, if you ask the more liberal independentists). Honest question, what makes you say there is a harsh repression of local culture within living memory? Never had that impression in the last 30 years, unless you are referring to a time before '79.
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Oct 3, 2017 11:58
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AceOfFlames posted:I have never seen this kind of thing in Portugal and we had a fascist dictatorship as well. At the very most you get a bunch of oldies like my parents who think "Salazar was nothing like the crooks today!" and think the Tejo Bridge should be renamed after him because "he built it!", not support from the general population! Or am I so alienated from my countrymen that o did not notice? (I readily admit knowing a lot more about the US than my own country. It's not my fault Portuguese websites suck) PNR (the Nazi party basically) always gets something like 0,2% to 2%, too. Also, it's written in the constitution that you can't start a fascist party (PNR kinda dodges that but everyone knows what they are). I blame our education, it's been pretty good the last 20 years. A shame Passos Coelho had to gently caress it all up by making 60 year olds teach until they die or get dementia. Only 0,4% of our teachers are under 30.
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Oct 3, 2017 12:03
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Angry Lobster posted:Honest question, what makes you say there is a harsh repression of local culture within living memory? Never had that impression in the last 30 years, unless you are referring to a time before '79. I'm referring to the Franco regime! Sorry if that was unclear.
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Oct 3, 2017 12:11
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Pedro De Heredia posted:That would be the smart thing to do, therefore it's unlikely. Pedro De Heredia posted:The different parties in Catalonia aren't going to do something that allows Catalonia as a whole to claim the moral high ground To be fair they don't need to; the central government in Madrid did it for them. I mean, as bad as the Catalonian independentists can get -- and there had been ample discussion of their failings earlier in the thread -- they haven't used police brutality against their opponents yet.
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Oct 3, 2017 12:45
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Pedro De Heredia posted:"Spain is so uniquely hosed because the fascists won here", a few days after Germany elects ultra right-wing neonazis to its parliament. when i say "won," i mean "factions of the Spanish army rose up in a coup d'etat, lost the coup because it had no popular support, launched a systematic campaign of fratricide and ideological cleansing on two fronts, laid siege to Madrid, took over the country when the republican government fled to Mexico, and installed the Falangist party as the de facto political organization of the country; then, after the civil war, for the next 36 years the powers that were put the countless orphans of Nationalists and Republicans alike into state-sponsored orphanages for re-education and exposure to various forms of hepatitis, passed rigorous censorship laws protecting Spanish culture from the evils of foreign influences, codified Castilian Spanish as the one true language at the expense of every other language and culture, elevated the Roman Catholic Church as the supreme expression of faith, and confiscated the properties and businesses of suspected communists, labor organizers, and atheists and disposed of their bodies in unmarked graves." when you say "elect," you mean "a bunch of under-educated fucks voted for a party with neo-Nazis in it in a democratic process and said party entered the main legislative body as a minority party in a parliamentary system." do you see the difference now?
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Oct 3, 2017 12:47
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Angry Lobster posted:Honest question, what makes you say there is a harsh repression of local culture within living memory? Never had that impression in the last 30 years, unless you are referring to a time before '79. Remember the '92 olympics? Catalan nationalists in general were beaten up by the police repeatedly to ensure not a single whisper of Catalan dissension was heard in the media or the street. This was told to me by one of my professors, who got to taste a lot of nightstick. The ECHR in Strasbourg has condemned Spain a number of times for completely failing to investigate the abundant reports of torture. Plus the virulent poo poo and lies that Spanish TV has always spewed about Catalans. It might have changed now, but Catalan TV wasn't even a fraction as virulent towards Spain when I lived there 15yrs ago.
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Oct 3, 2017 13:13
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Angry Lobster posted:Honest question, what makes you say there is a harsh repression of local culture within living memory? Never had that impression in the last 30 years, unless you are referring to a time before '79. I'm sure that if you asked the Basques they'd have a recent story or two to share?
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Oct 3, 2017 13:16
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DXH posted:do you see the difference now? No one is disputing that Franco won the Civil War. You said 'Spain is uniquely hosed because fascists won the civil war'. Your next statements are 'there's people in Spain who show support for fascist symbols'. That is not something unique to Spain, and can clearly be seen in countries where fascists were ultimately destroyed, so it has very little to do with victory or defeat of a particular fascist regime. You are not describing anything that doesn't happen in various parts of Europe in one form or another. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 13:18
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Cat Mattress posted:To be fair they don't need to; the central government in Madrid did it for them. This is all true, but it's missing the point a bit, which is that 'Catalan independentists' aren't necessarily going to do what's best for 'Catalonia' or for 'Catalan independence' because they are a coalition of parties with pretty different political beliefs, strategies, and power bases that have electoral and political incentives to act besides independence.
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Oct 3, 2017 13:23
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lost in postation posted:It seems like a great way for France to get the Corsicans to start arming up again. They've already made noises in that direction. Who says we disarmed
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Oct 3, 2017 13:26
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Cat Mattress posted:I mean, as bad as the Catalonian independentists can get -- and there had been ample discussion of their failings earlier in the thread -- they haven't used police brutality against their opponents yet. If you mean during the referendum, you're right. If you mean that the Catalonian government has any qualms about disbanding peaceful protests with rubber balls and police charges, you're very, very wrong.
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Oct 3, 2017 13:36
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