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Dawncloack posted:Remember the '92 olympics? Catalan nationalists in general were beaten up by the police repeatedly to ensure not a single whisper of Catalan dissension was heard in the media or the street. This was told to me by one of my professors, who got to taste a lot of nightstick. Yes, I remember that, demonstrations organised by the prominent independentists groups of the time, like ERC and Terra Lliure and got repressed by the police, 92 was a crazy year. My question was more in the line about examples of cultural/linguistical repression in modern Catalonia, rather than political ones, I was curious to know to which ones he was exatly refering to Angry Lobster fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 13:47
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Fat Samurai posted:According to the national Spanish TV, 400+ policemen were injured during the referendum. National TV is pretty pro-PP but those numbers are government-approved, they are reported in the newspapers too. Funny thing here, the 1st of October at midnight the official number of injured policemen was 11. Next day, and suddendly they were 430. But only 38 needed any sort of medical help (so they left a verifiable trail in the system). The others can't be attested for by any means, except the official statement  . Meanwhile 800+ street people were assisted by the medical teams, that's not counting those bruised or with small cuts that required no help. It's like someone looked at the massive civilian casualties and went "... hey they hit us too! Look at this big number!"
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Oct 3, 2017 13:54
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Angry Lobster posted:Yes, I remember that, demonstrations organised by the prominent independentists groups of the time, like ERC and Terra Lliure and got repressed by the police, 92 was a crazy year. Fair enough. I would say that a big turning point was the decision by the supreme court about language in schools. Until recently, schools in Catalonia would decide how much Spanish and Catalan teach according to the neihgborhood they were in, but always above a threshold. Some neighborhoods are Spanish only, there they'd teach in Spanish and just have some Catalan lessons. The opposite in Catalan only- 'hoods. In 2015 the supreme court ruled that even in neighborhoods where the dominant language was Catlan, 25% of classes had to be in Spanish, the opposite not being true. You can imagine the reactions, when that decision was taken by a panel of judges close to PP. Considering historical precedent and some recent precedent I personally don't think that Catalan people are wrong in being suspicious of the central government and their attempts to make their language and culture dissappear. edit: I'd point out that '92 it wasn't just about demonstrations being repressed. People being abducted from their houses at nights to get some beatings and condemns by the ECHR is a completely different game. Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 14:00
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Fat Samurai posted:If you mean during the referendum, you're right. Rubber bullets have been banned in Catalonia for several years so uhhh actually they do have qualms about that, in particular. Not to be too sanguine in my defense of the police/govt because god knows they've done some awful poo poo especially in the context of the crisis and the anti-eviction/indignados movement, but let's at least attempt to fact-check here.
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Oct 3, 2017 14:02
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Jiru posted:National TV is pretty pro-PP but those numbers are government-approved, they are reported in the newspapers too. Funny thing here, the 1st of October at midnight the official number of injured policemen was 11. Next day, and suddendly they were 430. But only 38 needed any sort of medical help (so they left a verifiable trail in the system). The others can't be attested for by any means, except the official statement Yeah, I'm giving 0 credibility to those injured police numbers, hence the later sentence. I thought it was pretty clear.
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Oct 3, 2017 14:05
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Fat Samurai posted:Yeah, I'm giving 0 credibility to those injured police numbers, hence the later sentence. I thought it was pretty clear. Yeah, I got that. I agree with you, just throwing some more facts out there.
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Oct 3, 2017 14:19
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Altivia posted:Rubber bullets have been banned in Catalonia for several years so uhhh actually they do have qualms about that, in particular. They were banned because the Mossos used them while evicting (in pretty much the same loving and caring way than the Guardia Civil during the referendum) protesters from Plaza Cataluña and a protester lost his spleen. This was 2012, under CiU, which is the current party in power. Ciu and ERC (so basically the current Generalitat, minus CUP) blocked a petition in the Parliament that would have made the former chief of the Mossos step down and argued against an immediate removal of rubber bullets, which had to wait 6 months. So yeah, Id' say they have pretty much no qualms whatsoever, given that they defended their usage, stopped the guy who gave the order to use them from being fired and delayed their usage being banned. Jiru posted:Yeah, I got that. I agree with you, just throwing some more facts out there. Ok, misunderstood you, sorry. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 14:23
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Bring back the Second Spanish Republic, IMHO. gently caress Franco to hell forever and ever.
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Oct 3, 2017 14:24
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Kurtofan posted:Who says we disarmed Didn't the FLNC say they would demilitarise some time ago?
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Oct 3, 2017 14:26
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Dawncloack posted:Fair enough. I would say that a big turning point was the decision by the supreme court about language in schools. Until recently, schools in Catalonia would decide how much Spanish and Catalan teach according to the neihgborhood they were in, but always above a threshold. Some neighborhoods are Spanish only, there they'd teach in Spanish and just have some Catalan lessons. The opposite in Catalan only- 'hoods. I agree with you, the language usage at schools was a hotly contested topic for years, and I can understand if people were upset with how it was solved.
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Oct 3, 2017 14:39
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Fat Samurai posted:They were banned because the Mossos used them while evicting (in pretty much the same loving and caring way than the Guardia Civil during the referendum) protesters from Plaza Cataluña and a protester lost his spleen. This was 2012, under CiU, which is the current party in power. Ciu and ERC (so basically the current Generalitat, minus CUP) blocked a petition in the Parliament that would have made the former chief of the Mossos step down and argued against an immediate removal of rubber bullets, which had to wait 6 months. Literally the same way - a lady lost her eye, much like it looks like the kid who got hit on Sunday will probably lose his. You make a fair point, I just think it's worth pointing out that the fact the region as a whole responded to the incident by banning rubber bullets (even after a delay) is due a little credit.
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Oct 3, 2017 14:40
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Altivia posted:Literally the same way - a lady lost her eye, much like it looks like the kid who got hit on Sunday will probably lose his. You make a fair point, I just think it's worth pointing out that the fact the region as a whole responded to the incident by banning rubber bullets (even after a delay) is due a little credit. It's worth noting that the ban of rubber bullets was made by popular demand during a time (around 2013-2014) when Mossos were awfully unpopular due to some cases of police brutality and beatings. From those days, they have cleaned their image quite a bit and have been at their peak popularity since the the recent terrorist attacks.
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Oct 3, 2017 14:54
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Pochoclo posted:Bring back the Second Spanish Republic, IMHO. gently caress Franco to hell forever and ever. Well, it would be the third republic now, but other than that issue of naming: agreed!
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Oct 3, 2017 15:24
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HerraS posted:Macron aint gonna recognize poo poo tho
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Oct 3, 2017 16:12
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Just offer him the crown. And a state robe with 'kick me' embroidered on the back in gold thread.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:47
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cebrail posted:There are separatist currents in the other parts of the "Catalan Countries", i.e. the (at least partially) catalan speaking parts of Spain, which is the País Valenciá and the Balearic Isles. And there are the Basque Country and Galicia. And if your definition of "existing" is a bit more loose, basically everywhere else too. Thanks, the thing is that I don't really see how a situation like this can be fixed without some public beheadings; any politician who wants to keep/build some credibility has to take into account the protests of this Sunday, and I am wondering if claiming to be willing to discuss the requests of Catalonia will lead into every single other region wanting the same treatment. I'm thinking some regions need an united Spain, others would want as least central government as possible, which seems to be a terrible situation to handle; on the other hand, if separation was a big thing everywhere, there could be less painful solutions. Basically, I'm asking myself: were I a Spanish politician, what should I do to exploit the coming power vacuum? If it's reasonable to expect a power vacuum, I mean.
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Oct 3, 2017 17:36
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Only in the Basque Country do you have a separatist movement that even comes close to that of Catalonia. The rest is either thoroughly Castilianized or has no particular interest in seceding (Galicia). There's not going to be a domino effect.
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Oct 3, 2017 18:02
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Ok, so, there's no federalist option on the table. I don't know, the best case scenario here would be trying to regain some kind of trust towards the Catalonian people, trying to care about cultural differencies, reminding that either a minority or a small majority is trying to choose for everyone, and that the consequences of any kind of secession would be disastrous for both parties. But I live on the other side of the Mediterranean Sea (east-wards, not south-wards) so I don't really know what I'm talking about. It's incredible how inept the government has been, allowing a less than 10% minority to earn the moral right to impose conditions to the other 90+%.
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Oct 3, 2017 18:37
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The Spanish government should have let the vote go ahead, but encouraged anyone not in favour to simply not vote. If turnout was 45% they could have easily just said "turnout too low, vote doesn't matter, hold it again with a minimum turnout requirement of 66%/75% or it doesn't matter". Nobody would really have questioned that on an international stage (its fairly legitimate), and it would have just left the status quo in place. Going in and busting heads has just radicalized tonnes of Catalans who were previously on the fence, who will now be rapidly pro-independence. It was a terrible choice. Big strikes across the city today apparently. I wonder will it calm down as the week goes on, or escalate.
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Oct 3, 2017 19:18
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What the gently caress is going on in Europe right now, watch Ireland start up the Troubles again. .
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Oct 3, 2017 19:59
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Peace de Bundy posted:What the gently caress is going on in Europe right now, watch Ireland start up the Troubles again. . Possible if the UK bungles Brexit badly enough.
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Oct 3, 2017 20:06
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Peace de Bundy posted:What the gently caress is going on in Europe right now, watch Ireland start up the Troubles again. . Well, Northern Ireland, but yes, that's very much been in the pipeline ever since Brexit meant Brexit.
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Oct 3, 2017 20:08
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Best thing about this whole thing is other groups demanding referendum. *sighs* If only...
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Oct 3, 2017 20:21
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throw to first drat IT posted:Best thing about this whole thing is other groups demanding referendum. One nation per state. Every man is sovereign. itshappening dot gif.
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Oct 3, 2017 20:38
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Char posted:It's incredible how inept the government has been, allowing a less than 10% minority to earn the moral right to impose conditions to the other 90+%. What? Anyway, you can't really keep Catalonia, cuz that would require constitutional amendments to guarantee their rights, which is impossible to begin with. You can look right at your political class in Madrid for tearing your nation in pieces, but it's still going to remain in pieces and Catalonia is still going to wash their hands off this mess they didn't create to begin with. And you can't really blame em, Catalonia wasn't offered any kind of actual alternative to status quo. Which is a bad way to negotiate with a spouse threatening divorce.
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Oct 3, 2017 20:44
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Well, gently caress. I'm due to fly into Barcelona for a week tomorrow. I'm in for a world of poo poo, aren't I?
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Oct 3, 2017 20:57
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Beating up your spouse when they bring up issues in your marriage is also a rather poor way to achieve a stable and happy marriage.
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Oct 3, 2017 20:58
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CaptainScraps posted:Well, gently caress. I'm due to fly into Barcelona for a week tomorrow. I'm in for a world of poo poo, aren't I?
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Oct 3, 2017 21:01
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Orange Devil posted:Beating up your spouse when they bring up issues in your marriage is also a rather poor way to achieve a stable and happy marriage. I just don't understand this younger generation
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Oct 3, 2017 21:26
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lost in postation posted:Didn't the FLNC say they would demilitarise some time ago? officially they disarmed in 2011
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Oct 3, 2017 21:53
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https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/915315185644077061 https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/915300457806991361 
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Oct 3, 2017 22:23
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throw to first drat IT posted:https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/915315185644077061 The United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, and the Various Secessionist Continental Provinces?
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Oct 3, 2017 22:26
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Not if you sign up for the international brigades. Not joking, how alive are the Catalonian trade unions?
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Oct 3, 2017 23:25
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lollontee posted:What? Err, what I meant is that the response gave legitimacy to the independence party. And I'm assuming this whole situation is going to impact negatively, somehow, the daily life of every Spanish citizen. So, somehow, the government managed to allow 2-3M people to negatively influence the other 40M.
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Oct 3, 2017 23:36
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Char posted:Err, what I meant is that the response gave legitimacy to the independence party. And I'm assuming this whole situation is going to impact negatively, somehow, the daily life of every Spanish citizen. So, somehow, the government managed to allow 2-3M people to negatively influence the other 40M. To me that sounds more like the government negatively influencing things for everyone.
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Oct 3, 2017 23:43
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also holy poo poo might they declare on the 6th? spicy
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Oct 4, 2017 00:07
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Char posted:Err, what I meant is that the response gave legitimacy to the independence party. And I'm assuming this whole situation is going to impact negatively, somehow, the daily life of every Spanish citizen. So, somehow, the government managed to allow 2-3M people to negatively influence the other 40M. Well, your government did try its best to make the worst possible choice every time they were given a choice. So they did a bit more than "allow" things get this bad, they actively made them bad. Besides that, 2-3 million people can't "negatively influence" anyone, for they are the people. Unless you see Catalonia as foreign, which would make it occupied territory. We've just watched your government say that the opinions of Catalonians on their status in relation to the rest of Spain will not be considered and will not be respected, and attempts to officially voice those opinions will be met with police repression if need be. All that is a choice on your governments part, not the Catalonians. If you don't want your country to come apart at the seams, you have to accomodate and compromise with and between its sections otherwise those sections of the nation stop being a nation. And now, you're heading to the place where there is no more Spain, only occupiers and occupied. And no one in your ruling class seems to saying there's anything wrong with their conduct, or your system governance. So good luck, cuz yo hosed
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Oct 4, 2017 00:28
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rear end struggle posted:also holy poo poo might they declare on the 6th? they're all gonna get arrested and a ton of people are gonna get hurt.
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Oct 4, 2017 01:06
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lollontee posted:Well, your government did try its best to make the worst possible choice every time they were given a choice. So they did a bit more than "allow" things get this bad, they actively made them bad. Besides that, 2-3 million people can't "negatively influence" anyone, for they are the people. Unless you see Catalonia as foreign, which would make it occupied territory. We've just watched your government say that the opinions of Catalonians on their status in relation to the rest of Spain will not be considered and will not be respected, and attempts to officially voice those opinions will be met with police repression if need be. All that is a choice on your governments part, not the Catalonians. If you don't want your country to come apart at the seams, you have to accomodate and compromise with and between its sections otherwise those sections of the nation stop being a nation. And now, you're heading to the place where there is no more Spain, only occupiers and occupied. And no one in your ruling class seems to saying there's anything wrong with their conduct, or your system governance. First of all, 2-3 million people can and will influence other people, for, right now, Spain is still a country which includes Catalonia. This is something you cannot really twist either way: a minority of the population is acting in disrespect of the majority. That being said, from what I'm seeing, it looks like the aforementioned majority is content in how the government handled everything until now, and it doesn't look like the government cared for anything such minority asked, so until police started using violence to stop nonviolent protests, there was no moral higher ground, as I don't see which crisis spurred the need to ask for independence - feel free to educate me in case I'm wrong. Second, my government really doesn't care about Catalonia, unless somehow what happens on the other side of the Mediterranean Sea manages to start a bank default domino. Or to give strength to the Northern League. But that's another story.  My question since the beginning is, more or less: how come the average Spanish citizen isn't asking for the head of Rajoy and co., given how much incompetence has been displayed in handling this situation, given how the government managed to jeopardize the quality of life of both Spanish and Catalonian citizens? This situation is being valued with a sufficiently rational eye? What's on the "Pros" side of the scale here, for the average Spanish citizen? Char fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Oct 4, 2017 |
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Oct 4, 2017 01:35
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Peace de Bundy posted:What the gently caress is going on in Europe right now, watch Ireland start up the Troubles again. .
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