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Krazyface posted:I have a hard time getting heroic victories in this game. Either I beat them with my army intact, in which case it's Decisive, or I get chewed up (which means the army needs to replenish for two turns, and maybe replace a couple saurus), and get Pyrrhic. I think heroic victories require you to be smaller than the other side
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Oct 3, 2017 15:10
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Probably. I've gotten one heroic victory. Teclis with 14/20 Elf Bullshit stack defending against two chaos armies and wiping them out. I actually think I lost quite a few guys in that one two. Like 150, which is alot when you're doing the elf jig. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 15:12
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I've had a few heroic victories. Each time it's been at a minor settlement that has the first garrison upgrade but no walls yet- basically you have just enough troops to win the fight if you fight smart, but not enough that the computer thinks you have a chance.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:14
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Anyone have general advice on army comp for multiplayer? I just always used other people's guides in TWW1 but no one's gotten enough time to write one for 2, and I figure its better to just get a grip on it myself
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Oct 3, 2017 15:15
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Archaeology Hat posted:I think agents do their deploy thing automatically by being outside an army, not 100% on that though. The deploy effects on the province seem to happen whether they're in an army or not. side note: I didn't see this posted, but the Total War FB page just said that the Steam Workshop will go live Thursday. Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 15:16
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Brasseye posted:What is everyone running as a mid/late game stack for Skaven? Four warp cannons, two doomwheels, two plague bearers, three rat ogres and then whatever you want as rat infantry allows my Queek to basically beat anything that has showed up so far.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:24
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So I was still undecided about if I wanted to play Morathi or Teclis after finishing my Krok-Gar campagin and opted to play the first 20 or so turns of both. I'm still undecided. Hat elves early game units are boring but decidedly effective. 65 melee defense spear elves by turn 10 make dwarves jealous about how well they can hold the line. Granted once they go below half health they start folding like a deck of cards, but still. I know some goons have been singing the praises of the sea guard, but IMO they aren't good enough to replace the core of my spearmen considering the kind of outrageous upkeep they cost and the fact that they are in archer sized units. I keep 2-4 around for the flanking wings of my army, but I'm not going to lean on them to be the main meat of my front line. Teclis has a goodly selection of magic and a potentially access to an irresponsible number of wizards, all the schools of magic passive abilities, and a lot of winds to carry him, but if you tap yourself out of magic or want something to do between cooldowns he's still just mostly just nerd slapping things even with his quest stuff unlocked. Teclis's start is also so slow between is meh starting economy, bad terrain limiting his early movement or wasting turns setting sail, and generally limited venues for early expansion. I kind of wish there was a Sea Guard Captain hero or something to fill the assassin shaped hole in their army. On the other hand, the pheonixes and the Eagles are incredibly fun (though I wish they came with siege attacker), Swordmasters of Hoeth are basically the greatswords to end all greatswords Morathi on the other hand isn't quite as potent a spellcaster with an (in my opinion) weaker set of spells at least early on, but makes up for it with her ability to RIP AND TEAR, getting well over 100 charge bonus relatively early. She still basically has a glass jaw at most points in the game, but she's fast and she can cycle charge like a champ. Delves feel like they have a significantly better selection of troops compared to hat elves essentially being a 'one size fits all' approach, leading to a wider approach to how you want to build your armies but they largely sacrifice their staying power (barring perhaps Darkshards with shields) to do so. Though I will say, getting a heavy armor anti-infantry unit in the Black Arc Corsairs in the basic infantry building line is a huge boon when building slots are still at a premium early on. My big complaint with delves is that Morathi's whole area is super drab and kind of annoying to look at for long stretches and something about her voice acting is way too '80's cartoon villain' for me. DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 15:25
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I got a heroic victory last night with Skaven on Hard. Was with a slave slinger / slave rat melee army and a gray seer (ruin) caster Lord, on the forest map that's a hugely inclined hill, against elves. I had the high ground, spread my lines out, enmeshed the elves, and once they were in a tight group, my mage Lord just started raining down lightning and breaking apart the elvish formations, and spawned rats and/or loose slave rats kept chasing the elvish archer units so they couldn't fire, while my slingers could, with height advantage. The auto-resolve had given me a "decisive defeat" before I reloaded and did the fight by hand. I think the autoresolve doesn't properly account for being able to spread your formations out so they have maximum surface area facing the enemy.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:26
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The auto-resolve had given me a "decisive defeat" before I reloaded and did the fight by hand. I think the autoresolve doesn't properly account for being able to spread your formations out so they have maximum surface area facing the enemy. As someone said some pages ago, auto-resolve is just a pure numbers game. It does not account for formation or anything like that.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:33
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Randarkman posted:As someone said some pages ago, auto-resolve is just a pure numbers game. It does not account for formation or anything like that. Yeah, but that particular effect might be another reason it over-values missile units (which it seemed like all the elf units were). A missile unit, the whole unit fires, but with a melee unit only the front line deals damage.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:37
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I got a heroic victory last night with Skaven on Hard. The basic lightning spell the Seers have is incredibly powerful compared to what comes next. It's kinda wierd because i feel like other than the attack buff spell I can just focus the Seers on their Blue and Red lines since the rest of the spells are basically obsolete.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:40
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I'd gotten one Heroic Victory in my entire first campaign because I absolutely refuse to play fair and buried my enemies under an almost unending tide of scurrying, scheming, backstabbing high elves.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:43
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I really want to know what drives all of elfkind to such ridiculous tastes in hats and helmets.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:47
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TheLastRoboKy posted:I'd gotten one Heroic Victory in my entire first campaign because I absolutely refuse to play fair and buried my enemies under an almost unending tide of scurrying, scheming, backstabbing high elves. This post took a bad loving turn and now I'm off to kill more elves.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:48
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Mans posted:The basic lightning spell the Seers have is incredibly powerful compared to what comes next. It's kinda wierd because i feel like other than the attack buff spell I can just focus the Seers on their Blue and Red lines since the rest of the spells are basically obsolete. Yeah that's a good point, I'm gonna have to go back and replay most of that campaign anyway since my Queek's armor quest bugged out, so I might just skip the other magic on that lord, at least initially. He had two points in the lightning for that fight and it really was all he needed. It's nice that it's such a tightly focused spell, too, it just does a shitload of damage in one nice tight circle.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:50
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toasterwarrior posted:This post took a bad loving turn and now I'm off to kill more elves. Trade-trade spy-spy yessssss
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Oct 3, 2017 15:50
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Some other nice things about Skaven I am noticing: -Death Frenzy is great on Doomwheels. You end up with an absolute monster truck of a chariot. Like most other Chariots, the Doomwheel is armor piercing as well. Its also a great spell for Rat Ogres too. -Hordes of slaves/clanrats getting the poison spell (or Pestilens clanstone buff) multiplies their effectiveness against dangerous enemies. Combined with other Leadership-draining attacks like Plagueclaw catapults you can get comparatively strong units to break pretty quickly from all the debuffs. -Similarly, using Wither also has a similar effect (or Mors clanstone buff) along with Death Runners and/or Censer bearers to debuff enemy armor to the point of being trivial for cheap units to damage. -Many upgrades/research improve melee resist on Skaven. Outside of Stormvermin you're never going to have a lot of armor but that's ok since melee resist is often better; armor piercing units tend to have lower dps/attack speeds and will do poorer vs units with melee resist. -Night/Gutter Runners can get an obscene amount of speed increases with Lord/engineer skills and research. This makes the skirmish versions extremely hard to catch. Slinger variants are basically straight upgrades of of the slave slingers, with the important distinction that they get progressively better base range. -Crown of Command is extremely useful for Skaven. Just having a unit of slaves/clanrats stay in melee for a few seconds longer makes a huge difference, especially when using Warp Bombs.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:55
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People say these games (at least TWW) are balanced with hard as the baseline difficulty for experienced players and normal as baby's first TW, but in the first game and especially in this game some of the features (if not the campaign at large) feel tooled towards normal. I'm playing on normal and two things are clear: interception armies can actually stop rituals and chaos armies can be dealt with by the ritual city's garrison if you invest in it. The ritual is less of a constant nuisance and more organically implemented when you don't have to stop everything you're doing every dozen turns or so.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:01
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Yeah my Skaven game has turned around, I was just expanding too quickly and not actually teching up. Now I can field decent armies and have decent money coming in (though still not as much as every other faction I've played as, I have the wheel things in the capitals, a warlock in my big money provinces and everything, need to raid more I guess).
thebardyspoon fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 16:03
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Night10194 posted:I really want to know what drives all of elfkind to such ridiculous tastes in hats and helmets. mankind unfortunately does not have much of a leg to stand on at this point in time
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Oct 3, 2017 16:05
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thebardyspoon posted:Yeah my Skaven game has turned around, I was just expanding too quickly and not actually teching up. Now I can field decent armies and have decent money coming in (though still not as much as every other faction, I have the wheel things in the capitals, a warlock in my big money provinces and everything, need to raid more I guess).  I think a few things are important to either Skaven campaign: First, you have to be decent at managing slaves and clanrats because even if you rush the advanced tech you're still going to have to deal with the chaff units at a point that might really determine how well your whole campaign will go. Second, you have to manage food well, finding the balance between rapidly upgrading cities/getting extra charges of Menace Below, and hoarding the food up to get the global bonuses.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:05
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I hope we get the blood DLC soon because I want to watch my system fall apart from the gibs of four thousand rats.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:05
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Ze Pollack posted:mankind unfortunately does not have much of a leg to stand on at this point in time I beg to differ, sir. 
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Oct 3, 2017 16:10
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Panfilo posted:
Oddly enough food has never been a problem, always had around level 4 even in my games that were failing and in this one I'm consistently full up even with spending it. Agreed with the point about the clanrats and such, my problem was transitioning from using nearly all those guys into using just a few and grabbing the more specialized stuff.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:13
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Goddamnit I want the Mortal Empires campaign. I want to take Queek to Eight Peaks.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:14
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Panfilo posted:
Yeah, food management finally "clicked" for me last night when I realized that they play like a hybrid of Beastmen and Empire; you have to build infrastructure in your cities, but you also have to constantly be fighting, so you can scavenge enough foods.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:17
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I got a Heroic Victory yesterday with a tier 2 garrison because Skeggi is still using the pre-Norsca build of horse archers, chariots and trolls. It was kind of nostalgic but it was a reminder of how poo poo their roster is atm. The Noble was fantastic. Just making GBS threads on trolls and chariots. I love that change.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:17
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OK, I'm sure something in the "pursuing fleeing enemies" mechanics has changed, because good god do units feel terrible at it now. Lots more blobbing, units losing orders and going idle, and surprisingly, your units can take damage even when killing off routers? Something's not right.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:18
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Goddamnit. I forgot about the island elves. Goddamnit. Here they come after turtling up for 300 years with their super armies with dragons and poo poo. Gonna have to take Queek down from back north, while I throw new rercruits and rats by the thousands at the invaders to slow them down.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:20
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toasterwarrior posted:OK, I'm sure something in the "pursuing fleeing enemies" mechanics has changed, because good god do units feel terrible at it now. Lots more blobbing, units losing orders and going idle, and surprisingly, your units can take damage even when killing off routers? Something's not right. It used to be really easy to issue a mass "chase everyone, but kinda stay in formation and spread out" order, by using LeftAlt + Rightclick That process seems a lot more complicated now and you have to like leftalt + rightclick + drag? or something and it's very annoying, I never want my entire army to abandon formation to attack one single unit, not ever
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Oct 3, 2017 16:24
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Panfilo posted:
My biggest advice to anyone struggling with Skaven is to learn to love clanrats and skavenslaves. Even my late game armies still have a healthy core of chaff simply to keep the cost low. I haven't found Stormvermin to be all that killy for their cost- they hold the line a bit better but that isn't worth the increased upkeep to me. It's so easy to completely surround the enemy army with your chaff that you can frequently cause chain routes pretty easily, even if you aren't killing all that much. Pierson posted:I hope we get the blood DLC soon because I want to watch my system fall apart from the gibs of four thousand rats. I'd completely forgotten this wasn't in the game yet. I had definitely felt like there was something missing though.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:28
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Is there a .jpg somewhere of Queek's skill tree?
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Oct 3, 2017 16:29
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One nice thing about defending Skaven settlements is that victories give you food, so even if you don't have a lord around to benefit from the experience points you're still boosting your food reserves in the process.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:29
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toasterwarrior posted:OK, I'm sure something in the "pursuing fleeing enemies" mechanics has changed, because good god do units feel terrible at it now. Lots more blobbing, units losing orders and going idle, and surprisingly, your units can take damage even when killing off routers? Something's not right. Pursuing has been horrible in Total War since at least Shogun 2, maybe longer. Taking damage when pursuing has been a thing for at least that long too. I remember reading somewhere that fleeing units can fight back with a massive stat reduction but still inflict a little damage. I haven't noticed any difference in TW2, it's just as awful as ever.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:33
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toasterwarrior posted:OK, I'm sure something in the "pursuing fleeing enemies" mechanics has changed, because good god do units feel terrible at it now. Lots more blobbing, units losing orders and going idle, and surprisingly, your units can take damage even when killing off routers? Something's not right. Dude, your units won't even stay engaged with enemies in battle. There is something decidedly wrong with engagement handling in this game. But you're right, chasing routers is a fruitless task. In TW1 you'd have to re-target hero/lord vs hero/lords pretty frequently as they'd get distracted by other units around them. In TW2 units just stop fighting entirely.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:39
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Wafflecopper posted:Pursuing has been horrible in Total War since at least Shogun 2, maybe longer. Taking damage when pursuing has been a thing for at least that long too. I remember reading somewhere that fleeing units can fight back with a massive stat reduction but still inflict a little damage. I haven't noticed any difference in TW2, it's just as awful as ever. There's definitely something new that feels broken in the new game though. I'll have light cav attacking routing units and barely getting any kills. Just watching the models it seemed like they weren't attacking as much- I wonder if there's something broken with the pathing or something.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:40
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Just a few things to clarify for people that seem to be confused (because these questions come up a lot in the thread) Autoresolve favors artillery and ranged, and tends to prioritize damage toward cheaper units over expensive ones. They've tweaked the algorithm (it used to be notorious for killing off expensive monsters). The level of Lords and heroes is also factored, but I don't think it cares what you actually put those skill points into, so an AI lord with a garbage selection of skills will still fare decently in autoresolve as a result. As mentioned previously, ammo is also factored, which is important for races like Dwarves and Empire who get their own individual upgrades for ammo. Skaven in WH2 get big boosts to ammo for some of their missile units which also probably significantly improves autoresolve. And just so you know, increasing stacks of Menace Below also improves your chances of victory, albeit slightly. Margin of Victory or Loss is not at all determined by casualties as people would assume, but the ratio of damage dealt and damage received. There are also other minimum requirements as well; having a full stack of elite vs 1 lord with 1 HP will not give you a Heroic Victory because you only did 1 damage to him, even if the ratio of damage to HP was enormous. This helps balance different armies; smaller armies are not unfairly benefitting from the fact that they will receive comparatively less casualties even in decisive losses. I don't know the exact thresholds for getting Pyrrhic/Close/Decisive/Heroic victories, but I have noted the easiest way to get Heroic victories is to defend in a siege and/or use damage spells effectively. With magic being buffed I find it somewhat easier to get them now. Margin of Victory determines how much experience your Lord and Heroes receive at the end of the battle; while damage dealt determines exp/veterancy of regular units, Lords/Heroes only care about the degree you won; a Lord could theoretically get 1,000 kills on his own but if he gets a Pyrrhic victory then he'll receive less exp than a Lord that got 0 kills but won a Heroic victory.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:45
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Mans posted:Four warp cannons, two doomwheels, two plague bearers, three rat ogres and then whatever you want as rat infantry allows my Queek to basically beat anything that has showed up so far. Thanks, going to finish researching doomwheels then try and gradually shift my stacks to something close to this composition.
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Oct 3, 2017 16:47
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Panfilo posted:Margin of Victory determines how much experience your Lord and Heroes receive at the end of the battle; while damage dealt determines exp/veterancy of regular units, Lords/Heroes only care about the degree you won; a Lord could theoretically get 1,000 kills on his own but if he gets a Pyrrhic victory then he'll receive less exp than a Lord that got 0 kills but won a Heroic victory. OOOHHHHH *lightbulb explodes*
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Oct 3, 2017 16:51
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Deified Data posted:People say these games (at least TWW) are balanced with hard as the baseline difficulty for experienced players and normal as baby's first TW, but in the first game and especially in this game some of the features (if not the campaign at large) feel tooled towards normal. I'm playing on normal and two things are clear: interception armies can actually stop rituals and chaos armies can be dealt with by the ritual city's garrison if you invest in it. The ritual is less of a constant nuisance and more organically implemented when you don't have to stop everything you're doing every dozen turns or so. these things are still true on very hard. ive seen plenty of rituals stopped by intervention armies and have manually defeated armies of up to 2 stacks with garrisons. its a hard fight but ai being dumb and walls being an insane force multiplier help a lot
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Oct 3, 2017 16:59
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