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Majorian posted:Now let me tell you about my Panera Bread strategy, and how it's not racist. The Panera Bread poll called the GA election https://twitter.com/JStein_Vox/status/876933955206881280
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Oct 3, 2017 20:38
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Trabisnikof posted:I think they're more upset that a firm that did digital for a losing campaign can still win contracts Yup. Terrible Democratic advisers keep getting rehired, regardless of how poorly the campaigns they serve do.
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Oct 3, 2017 20:39
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Majorian posted:Yup. Terrible Democratic advisers keep getting rehired, regardless of how poorly the campaigns they serve do. But here's the thing, what's the non-terrible digital media firm Democrats could hire instead?
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Oct 3, 2017 20:54
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Condiv posted:and they were lying. and anyone with half a brain knew they were lying You are the one talking about defense of others. Saddam never threatened anyone in Iraq?
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Oct 3, 2017 20:58
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yronic heroism posted:You are the one talking about defense of others. Saddam never threatened anyone in Iraq? are you seriously going to start arguing in favor of the iraq war to salvage your argument? 
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Oct 3, 2017 20:59
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You're the one implying the type of argument is a good one. Then you try to get around the implications by saying "well actually everyone was lying about Iraq because no one ever believed a bad thing was good because of their ideology." That said, I'm not convinced you even recognize what the original argument is about. You probably just heard antifa and jumped in.
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Oct 3, 2017 21:07
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yronic heroism posted:You're the one implying the type of argument is a good one. Then you try to get around the implications by saying "well actually everyone was lying about Iraq because no one ever believed a bad thing was good because of their ideology." nah, my argument lines up with what other people were saying. just cause bush said the iraq war was defensive doesn't mean it was. just cause jefferson clay said vietnam was defending capitalism, doesn't mean it was. on the other hand, antifa is actually literally defending people. like when they protected nonviolent clergy protestors from nazis who were trying to brutalize them you apparently think there's no difference between defense and aggression other than semantics, and it's a really dumb point of view that has you arguing republican talking points
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Oct 3, 2017 21:16
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Condiv posted:nah, my argument lines up with what other people were saying. just cause bush said the iraq war was defensive doesn't mean it was. just cause jefferson clay said vietnam was defending capitalism, doesn't mean it was. Don't be obtuse. Of course keeping them from beating up protesters is clear-cut defense. Otoh stuff like punching Richard Spencer at an interview is argued to be an act of preemption. Preemption, as Sarah Palin can't tell you, is at the core of the Bush doctrine as well. So that's two examples of non-LIBERALS LIBERALS LIBERALS who argue for preemption in some form.
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Oct 3, 2017 21:38
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yronic heroism posted:Don't be obtuse. Of course keeping them from beating up protesters is clear-cut defense. Otoh stuff like punching Richard Spencer at an interview is argued to be an act of preemption. Preemption, as Sarah Palin can't tell you, is at the core of the Bush doctrine as well. ah, you're crying tears for richard spencer, a man who has argued the following: a nazi posted:‘Does human civilization actually need the Black race?’ ‘Is Black genocide right?’ and, if it is, ‘What would be the best and easiest way to dispose of them?’ antifa's actions against richard spencer are defense because we've all seen what happened the last time nazis got power, and those brave antifa brawlers are doing their damnedest to keep history from repeating itself. but please, do cry some more tears about the needless aggression of antifa against poor richard spencer
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Oct 3, 2017 21:42
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punching richard spencer is just like starting a war in iraq, a sane view from a sane man, not a smoothbrained forum poster unable to make a point "preemption in some form" lmao
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Oct 3, 2017 21:56
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Condiv posted:ah, you're crying tears for richard spencer, a man who has argued the following: I never said preemption was always needless, just that it's actually a universally held belief (except among some pacifists). Liberals do it, conservatives do it, even antifa does it. Nice try shifting goalposts though.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:05
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yronic heroism posted:I never said preemption was always needless, just that it's actually a universally held belief (except among some pacifists). Liberals do it, conservatives do it, even antifa does it. and i already said that the preemption is justified cause there's a legitimate threat in the case with nazis that there wasn't in the case of iraq Condiv posted:this is p easy yronic. keep trying to pretend they're the same though yronic
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Oct 3, 2017 22:07
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everyone does it! *compares punching a white supremecist to killing a million iraqi civilians* it's just human nature!
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Oct 3, 2017 22:08
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Regardless of any inaccuracy/accuracy, it is probably an unwise rhetorical move for this audience to compare antifa to W.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:11
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Condiv posted:and i already said that the preemption is justified cause there's a legitimate threat in the case with nazis that there wasn't in the case of Iraq So do you deny the Kurdish genocide?
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Oct 3, 2017 22:11
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Trabisnikof posted:Regardless of any inaccuracy/accuracy, it is probably an unwise rhetorical move for this audience to compare antifa to W. This audience will throw a tantrum no matter what.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:13
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yronic heroism posted:This audience will throw a tantrum no matter what. Yeah but the skill comes from making their tantrum make them look like an idiot instead of you. Now you've seemed to stray into arguing the Iraq war was justified and its not a good look.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:15
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yronic heroism posted:So do you deny the Kurdish genocide? you're really doing it, you're arguing in favor of the iraq war
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Oct 3, 2017 22:15
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yronic's gimmick is he's the savage anti-leftist leftist who accidentally goofs up and makes himself looks dumb on purpose to bolster the left it's honestly quite genius
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Oct 3, 2017 22:16
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yeah uh there is nothing wrong with the idea of preemptive violence. just the opposite, its an incredible important concept, to leftists, and not to liberals, because leftists, unlike liberals, are deeply concerned about the use of violence and how or when it can be legitimate or illegitimate. thats the whole loving point - jeffclay, like all liberals, sees the distinction between aggression, defense, or preemptive aggression as mere pedantry. because they are unconcerned with the intellectual dilemma of violence thats why "the vietnam war was a defense of capitalist institutions" is fightin' words around these parts - the word choice is important and not pedantic, because the ideas they represent are important. claims to defense, or preemption, can and should be evaluated as legitimate or illegitimate. lol
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Oct 3, 2017 22:17
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Trabisnikof posted:But here's the thing, what's the non-terrible digital media firm Democrats could hire instead? Hell, I don't know. I'm sure there's more than just that one though.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:17
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Condiv posted:
No, this is simply turning your own fallacious argument style against you for sarcastic effect. Good gravy you are a dumb motherfucker.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:18
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yronic heroism posted:No, this is simply turning your own fallacious argument style against you for sarcastic effect. Good gravy you are a dumb motherfucker. There's no reason to get upset
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Oct 3, 2017 22:19
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Calibanibal posted:yeah uh there is nothing wrong with the idea of preemptive violence. just the opposite, its an incredible important concept, to leftists, and not to liberals, because leftists, unlike liberals, are deeply concerned about the use of violence and how or when it can be legitimate or illegitimate. thats the whole loving point - jeffclay, like all liberals, sees the distinction between aggression, defense, or preemptive aggression as mere pedantry. because they are unconcerned with the intellectual dilemma of violence And liberals, and some non-tankie leftists for that matter, generally believe Stalinists killed a hell of a lot of innocent people, so the question of containment was one of tactics.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:23
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yronic heroism posted:No, this is simply turning your own fallacious argument style against you for sarcastic effect. Good gravy you are a dumb motherfucker. i argue in favor of things and people i support meanwhile you're undermining yourself by trying to pretend the iraq war and the actions of antifa are p much the same thing. it's p sad yronic heroism posted:And liberals, and some non-tankie leftists for that matter, generally believe Stalinists killed a hell of a lot of innocent people, so the question of containment was one of tactics. yes, the vietnam war was the best way to prevent a hell of a lot of people from being killed ditto installing saddam hussein 
Condiv fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 22:27
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Condiv posted:i argue in favor of things and people i support Especially considering how well trod the philosophical grounds are that "state action can be held to a different standard than individual or collective action." One can give antifa a right to preemptively punch Nazis while denying that right to the state and be ideologically/philosophically consistent.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:30
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Condiv posted:yes, the vietnam war was the best way to prevent a hell of a lot of people from being killed Sounds like you support those things since sarcasm is not a thing anymore.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:34
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Trabisnikof posted:Especially considering how well trod the philosophical grounds are that "state action can be held to a different standard than individual or collective action." Can we agree that the state should also punch nazis? Like, it should be a requirement for office. I want debate questions about how many nazis a candidate has punched in the face.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:35
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Calibanibal posted:the idea, that a distinction between defense and aggression is mere pedantry, is absolutely peak D&D 2017
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Oct 3, 2017 22:37
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Can we agree that the state should also punch nazis? Like, it should be a requirement for office. I want debate questions about how many nazis a candidate has punched in the face. Every centrist Clinton supporter I know on social media says exactly this, incidentally. It's cheap grace at this point. yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 22:40
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thats a fair edit tbqh
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Oct 3, 2017 22:40
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Can we agree that the state should also punch nazis? Like, it should be a requirement for office. I want debate questions about how many nazis a candidate has punched in the face. Not at all. I don't think the police should be beating Nazis, that's a community job. For the same reason I oppose criminalizing speech, that's a social responsibility. Giving the state, especially our state, more powers to brutalize preemptively is a bad thing. Because our cops are Nazis and they already twist ever law they can into a tool of community abuse, I have no doubt they'd do the same if they could arrest for criminal speech. That cop who made people, under threat of arrest for refusal to obey, repeat "I am on drugs" comes to mind. Nazis thrive when the community lets them survive. I know a Nazi wouldn't dare walk around my community openly and it isn't because they're afraid of the cops. It is because the community wouldn't allow it. Requiring candidate to have a Nazi-punching history before you vote for them, well that's back into the social realm.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:43
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Trabisnikof posted:But here's the thing, what's the non-terrible digital media firm Democrats could hire instead? Here's an idea. Just decide how you'll do your own loving slogans and tell them to put them on a loving gif or whatever. Don't let them tell you how they think it should go, because they don't know poo poo outside how to spread a message on twitter or facebook.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:44
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Crowsbeak posted:Here's an idea. Just decide how you'll do your own loving slogans and tell them to put them on a loving gif or whatever. Don't let them tell you how they think it should go, because they don't know poo poo outside how to spread a message on twitter or facebook. You're vastly overestimating the technical, internet and meme savviness of most people who get into electoral politics. Like squarespace requires a consultant to help setup and maintain. Campaign consultants are a good idea but the issue is no one in the mainstream Democrats get the Internet yet. They're still thinking piecemeal and with a "and digital" mindset rather than the Internet being as embedded in the campaign as it is in the world. Also the cheap out answer is "hire whoever Bernie did."
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Oct 3, 2017 22:50
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yronic heroism posted:Sounds like you support those things since sarcasm is not a thing anymore. this is just sad yronic
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Oct 3, 2017 22:51
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What's sad is you dodging questions you don't want to answer.Condiv posted:Nazis are actually a threat, as they wish for genocide and mass murder, so antifa are defending others Simple question: did Saddam wish for mass murder of Kurds or not? That is the criteria you set for "actually a threat."
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Oct 3, 2017 23:09
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbSn6o3ZMtw
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Oct 3, 2017 23:26
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Trabisnikof posted:But here's the thing, what's the non-terrible digital media firm Democrats could hire instead? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troma_Entertainment
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Oct 4, 2017 00:02
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punching nazis isn't preemption, it's reaction to political violence through genocidal rhetoric
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Oct 4, 2017 00:49
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it's also extremely good to do
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Oct 4, 2017 00:52
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