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In my limited experience, I had a tough time finding what felt like genuine "balanced" encounters in my 4e game. It was either the players wiped the floor with the enemies, or the players were all one round from death at the end. Since the combat is so lethal, I often felt like I was pulling my punches to make sure they wouldn't die. I ended "balancing" things by letting them come up with workarounds so they could block or detain other forces or subdue enemies silently somewhere.
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Oct 3, 2017 20:02
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It's probably worth mentioning / reminding that adepts, while good at killing normal poo poo, are the experts at killing magic poo poo. The vast majority of defensive powers stop working when you attack them with a weapon foci.
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Oct 3, 2017 21:03
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Skypie posted:In my limited experience, I had a tough time finding what felt like genuine "balanced" encounters in my 4e game. It was either the players wiped the floor with the enemies, or the players were all one round from death at the end. It took me a really, really long time to get an intuitive grasp of my player's relative offensive capabilities and durability under fire, and to match the opponents up to that. Until then I did a *LOT* of number-fudging as far as NPC stats and dice rolls where the "rubber meets the road" so to speak. I'd try to get the numbers as close as I could before hand but it's really tough so I fully and whole heartedly advocate doing your best in preparation, throwing it out the window when nobody's looking, then going back afterwards to do better with what you learned. That said every two or three missions I like my players riding the razor's edge of being close to serious injury/death by the end of a run. Sometimes I do want to give them an easy run because I want more story or to let the player's explore something about their characters, but I do make a point of keeping things outright dangerous with combat heavy missions every so often. Spice being the variety of life and all.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:02
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What the gently caress runners are out there without DocWagon? I never much worry about oopsing PC corpses with that. With how easy it is to make near-invincible PCs in SR4, balancing is too finicky. E: Also, liberal use/interpretation of stimulant drugs helps here. Solid Poopsnake fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 23:26
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bird food bathtub posted:It took me a really, really long time to get an intuitive grasp of my player's relative offensive capabilities and durability under fire, and to match the opponents up to that. Yeah. Variety is something I've tried to use, and I've kinda fudged mechanics in my D&D4e game as well. Although since I use Maptools for that, it's a little bit of a hassle to constantly do GM rolls so I end up rolling openly. It's fun when I land a crit and the group is like "nooooooo" but it also sucks when I roll strings of misses. That said, I think I was getting a stronger handle on them by the time the game fizzled, and I'll be able to apply that in future games. Like the one shot Anarchy game I'm doing on Saturday. 
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Oct 3, 2017 23:46
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Solid Poopsnake posted:What the gently caress runners are out there without DocWagon? I never much worry about oopsing PC corpses with that. With how easy it is to make near-invincible PCs in SR4, balancing is too finicky. My GM just told me that grabbing DocWagon was a bad idea in general because they're going to show up the moment you conk out and possibly just make things worse. Or at least that was the reason I remember being dissuaded at grabbing one during chargen. Meanwhile I had a session today in which all my combat rolls were 2's and the only way I managed to take someone out was when they managed to roll 1's to dodge. The most hollow of victories if anything.
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Oct 3, 2017 23:52
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I've always wondered how DocWagon is supposed to prevent you from dying when it takes at most 2 seconds for the guy who shot you to finish you off.
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Oct 4, 2017 00:00
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Poil posted:I've always wondered how DocWagon is supposed to prevent you from dying when it takes at most 2 seconds for the guy who shot you to finish you off. Maybe the art of the deadcheck fell by the wayside
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Oct 4, 2017 00:07
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Poil posted:I've always wondered how DocWagon is supposed to prevent you from dying when it takes at most 2 seconds for the guy who shot you to finish you off. Nanites. DocWagon subs are always those weird things, because it's up to the GM to decide how RAI vs realism they want to treat it. Mechanically, it should just cost the runner some dosh when their body drops with a slight pulse, and the baddies leave them alone. Realistically, if a critter or bullet caused you to risk flatlining, they should just finish the job and be done with it. As for balancing combat, my favoured approach is to wear the team down. Runners are at their best when they can slam objectives quick without expending resources. It's much easier to balance a row of "normal" encounters (or just throw complications into otherwise mundane checks), instead of making a few "do or die" encounters. The most important thing is making them use edge, and remember that you can use your own encounter edge to turn up the heat if they try to resist temptation. Poil posted:That's fun too. I got invited to a high level campaign so I need to be strong enough to be able to do anything. Just don't ask about my dodge dice. The big thing about high powered games is that because of the dice pools involved, and that damage is always greater than even the best soaks (which can be countered even if they're hardened), it's always spot first, alpha first. I could never make high powered games work, although they can be a fun power trip for the players.
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Oct 4, 2017 01:48
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Cooked Auto posted:My GM just told me that grabbing DocWagon was a bad idea in general because they're going to show up the moment you conk out and possibly just make things worse. I don't know your GM or their motives but this feels like some bullshit from them. IMO, every runner should have DocWagon, even if it's just the basic package (but seriously, upgrade). It's not just about the automatic dispatch if your vitals tank (and not just if you're dying). They come running if you smash/cut/otherwise damage your biomonitor bracelet, too. You can use that before you take a burst or two if you know you're in a bad situation and just need support/evac. An important thing to remember in my opinion is that while any passable runner team can match any elite unit you care to find in the books stat-for-stat, where the runners come up short is backup. The Red Samurai aren't scary because they're well-trained, they're scary because they can holler into a radio and suddenly there's two more loving teams to deal with. For runners, it's just you and your lonesome. A DocWagon contract lets you buy a little of that backup. You could buy gang protection instead, but DocWagon's gotta worry about their Yelp rating, and they're city-wide. If someone on your crew is shot, chances are your team has not planned on that. Things have gone wrong. There is an additional benefit of distracting security around your target. Regarding response time: I think it's largely a matter of play style, for the GM and the PCs. For me, a severe wound on the team is possibly cause for aborting the run depending on other factors, and it's definitely time to start withdrawing from the current position under suppressing fire. Also, I have questions about a GM who plays NPCs as casually drilling heads of incapacitated PCs. Everyone who expects to be shot at needs DocWagon. There should also be a DocWagon for lawyers.
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Oct 4, 2017 23:28
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An international law firm of Saul Goodmans backed by high-threat response teams monitoring a SIN, real or otherwise, registered with their service. Breach the bracelet, speak a command phrase, or a charge or warrant is filed, dispatches an associate to your location armed with writs, motions, and i dunno whatever the hell else lawyers are armed with. Law guns.
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Oct 4, 2017 23:47
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DocWagon is just too dang expensive to pay for on top of Lifestyle, ammo, replacement SINs, etc. Mundanes especially have to minimize their expenses if they want to literally ever be able to afford to upgrade their setups. And that's aside from the fact that the Core of both 4e and 5e explicitly states they don't violate extraterritoriality. Between them being really niche and really expensive to upkeep, I'd recommend nobody ever get DocWagon unless your GM has you absolutely swimming in cash, or has you running so often than a single month's subscription will last you at least 2-3 full runs. Instead, get a Rating 6 medkit installed into your armor or your body. If you have it wireless-enabled and attach it to yourself in advance, it can start rolling First Aid tests with 12 dice as soon as you get injured. Much cheaper and much more prompt than even the quickest of DocWagon responses. It's hard to go wrong with a built-in expert medical system.
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Oct 4, 2017 23:51
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jagadaishio posted:DocWagon is just too dang expensive to pay for on top of Lifestyle, ammo, replacement SINs, etc. Mundanes especially have to minimize their expenses if they want to literally ever be able to afford to upgrade their setups. If you can't spare four hundred a month, I just don't know what to say about your bush league runner team. The points I discussed above are above and beyond the actual medical treatment. I am curious, though. When I GM or play, runs are twice a month on average, and they hard pass any job that's less than 5k per person. They'll also usually thumbs down anything under 10k per person. I'm not really sure of the book prices, this is just my group kinda settling into something over time. I mean, if you're not making money hand over fist, what's even the point of running the shadows? You have to make more than other forms of crime. E: Now that you bring it up, auto-medkits in your clothes and a Docwagon contract are the perfect combo.
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Oct 5, 2017 00:35
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His reasoning, after looking back at the Skype logs, was that they bring in more problem than they might be worth. Such as dealing with them coming in mid job which might complicate things. So not really worth it and I do respect his opinion on these things. Not to mention it saved me money for other things.  But the cost issue is also very relevant. jagadaishio posted:Instead, get a Rating 6 medkit installed into your armor or your body. If you have it wireless-enabled and attach it to yourself in advance, it can start rolling First Aid tests with 12 dice as soon as you get injured. Much cheaper and much more prompt than even the quickest of DocWagon responses. It's hard to go wrong with a built-in expert medical system. Yeah I need to remember that for next time I buy new combat armor. Which perhaps won't be for a while since I have a lot of other expenses to deal with. Such as a PMC license that lets me roll straight through police and military checkpoints. And boy howdy is that needed right after the Vory made the military invade the most lawless district in the city in a move to take power. Things are interesting in Vladivostok right now.
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Oct 5, 2017 00:37
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Cooked Auto posted:His reasoning, after looking back at the Skype logs, was that they bring in more problem than they might be worth. Such as dealing with them coming in mid job which might complicate things. So not really worth it and I do respect his opinion on these things. Not to mention it saved me money for other things. My point is that it's already complicated because you're already bleeding. But if you play a combat-heavy game, I can see the perspective. E: Also your game sounds dope, please tell us about it. Solid Poopsnake fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Oct 5, 2017 |
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Oct 5, 2017 00:38
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A first aid kit installed in your body armor. Please tell me some splat book didn't really say it's ok to somehow shove a micro-autodoc into your duster and have it fix up the hole just put in you (and it) while you continue to fight. It seems like something they'd do, but come on.
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Oct 5, 2017 00:42
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I ride bikes all day posted:A first aid kit installed in your body armor. Please tell me some splat book didn't really say it's ok to somehow shove a micro-autodoc into your duster and have it fix up the hole just put in you (and it) while you continue to fight. It seems like something they'd do, but come on. It is totally kosher by RAW. I'm not mad at it, but I don't love it.
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Oct 5, 2017 00:43
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I ride bikes all day posted:A first aid kit installed in your body armor. Please tell me some splat book didn't really say it's ok to somehow shove a micro-autodoc into your duster and have it fix up the hole just put in you (and it) while you continue to fight. It seems like something they'd do, but come on. I've never had a player try to use a medkit while still in action but I imagine that if I did they'd end up with a pretty severe amount of pool penalties for not staying still while the kit does the job.
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Oct 5, 2017 00:51
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Solid Poopsnake posted:It is totally kosher by RAW. I'm not mad at it, but I don't love it. Hahaha. That is just so abusive and retarded it sounds like it came off dumpshock.com. People do realize that the intention here is that the thing has a couple of arms and can act as an autodoc if you set it somewhere and lay next to it, right?
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Oct 5, 2017 00:51
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Solid Poopsnake posted:If you can't spare four hundred a month, I just don't know what to say about your bush league runner team. The points I discussed above are above and beyond the actual medical treatment. As a GM what do you do when your runners start playing hardball and rejecting jobs because the payout is too low after negotiating? I just started in on my first campaign and we're having to pitch in to cover someone's medical expenses from the last run we did, so money is going to be looking tight. As an adept I don't need money as badly as others but there's always things to spend it on.
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Oct 5, 2017 01:00
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I ride bikes all day posted:A first aid kit installed in your body armor. Please tell me some splat book didn't really say it's ok to somehow shove a micro-autodoc into your duster and have it fix up the hole just put in you (and it) while you continue to fight. It seems like something they'd do, but come on. The rules for hooking up a medkit and running it on autopilot are in Core of both 4e and 5e, and additionally in Bullets and Bandages, a combined 4e and 5e book. The rules for installing a medkit in your armor are in Arsenal in 4e, I believe, and definitely in Run and Gun in 5e. 5e has an implanted medkit in Chrome Flesh, and I believe 4e has one in Augmentation. So I'd dare say it's not just RAW, it's also RAI for the past two editions. In both of those editions, DocWagon will explicitly not violate extraterritorial borders.
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Oct 5, 2017 01:00
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I ride bikes all day posted:Hahaha. That is just so abusive and retarded it sounds like it came off dumpshock.com. People do realize that the intention here is that the thing has a couple of arms and can act as an autodoc if you set it somewhere and lay next to it, right? The only times I've seen it in play don't "heal", but stabilize. I can't speak to all possible applications right now.
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Oct 5, 2017 01:01
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jagadaishio posted:In both of those editions, DocWagon will explicitly not violate extraterritorial borders. I want to touch on this specifically. It is correct. However, a DocWagon team milling around the front gate of an extraterritorial site, making all kinds of demands to see their patient, is absolutely what should happen, and is distracting for site security. It draws resources that could be murdering the PCs. E: Like, the leader of a DocWagon team should be Maximum Becky in demanding to TALK TO YOUR SUPERVISOR for on-site security. Solid Poopsnake fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Oct 5, 2017 |
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Oct 5, 2017 01:03
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jagadaishio posted:The rules for hooking up a medkit and running it on autopilot are in Core of both 4e and 5e, and additionally in Bullets and Bandages, a combined 4e and 5e book. Hahahahaha. Splat books are hilarious. Ok, you rolled 4 successes. The medkit reaches out of your armored jacket with it's patented Mr. Fantastic Extendo Arm and pulls a bandage out from behind the ceramic plate. It plummets down the 6 feet to your now Christmas colored calf and deftly wraps itself tightly around you 10 times with bandage in tow. Also, make an athletics test for that fence you wanted to hop. A gift cert. for any one thing $10 or less for the person who can write up the most ridiculous narrative for this nonsense.
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Oct 5, 2017 01:19
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I ride bikes all day posted:Hahahahaha. Splat books are hilarious. Medusa drones, dawg. E: I mean Medusa drones helping with buttchugging is probably the most ridic but I ain't about to write a novella on it.
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Oct 5, 2017 01:20
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I ride bikes all day posted:Hahahahaha. Splat books are hilarious. Independent operation is right in both Cores. It's just reiterated in the splat.
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Oct 5, 2017 01:28
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Solid Poopsnake posted:E: Also your game sounds dope, please tell us about it. Basic rundown is that it's set in Vladivostok in the late 2070's (date as of last session was October 3rd 2076) and the city is more or less completely controlled by the police and military due to stuff in the expansive backstory the GM has written up. The sole exception is a region of the city (The Zone) that has been walled off where the gangs get to roam free pretty much and do their own thing and the only time you'll see police is when they're rolling in with ultra lethal force. (Other districts have a D1 to D5 rating to denote what kind of police/military response you get. D1 is "Response Time is near-instant. Security Rating (7-6)") The Zone is also where the Team mainly operates in even if we've been elsewhere through the city. The team consists of an Ork Heavy Gunner, a Blind Elf Technomancer and her drone bodyguard, a Human Adept/"Face" (putting that very lightly so far) and a Human Driver/Street Sam (me in this case. Coincidentally the only guy on the team). So far we've been pulling through rather well and gone from delivering donator hearts to preventing a highly lethal drug to enter the streets to taking out a ghoul cult and finding elusive people. But we hit a slight issue by the end of our last mission where there was a standing offer during downtime to go and work for Karpov Industries, a Russian AA corp, that hires runners extensively to provide them with security and go up against other corps and so on. This happening before the martial law being applied on the Zone and the Vory taking control. (The team was even partly responsible for making the Yakuza survive the storm even.) However, half the team didn't want to sell out full time. Which pissed off the other half (just IC in this case). This lead to the team going their separate ways, half the team hating the other half in the process. Staying separated for five weeks until the Technomancer managed to get herself into some trouble alongside one of her friends and we had to pull her out of it. Which made for an awkward reunion. So currently the team is still kinda split and are essentially planning to sit down and try to talk to each other about what they want to do. One neat thing the GM does is letting us vote on what missions. But we have to that first either based on name of the mission (and associated song) and then after that we just get what the Johnson wants us to do and that's our second and final vote. So currently the next vote is either doing more missions or continue our supposedly six month downtime. Considering my characters monetary situation I went all in on doing more runs I should add. Cooked Auto fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Oct 5, 2017 |
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Oct 5, 2017 01:35
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jagadaishio posted:In both of those editions, DocWagon will explicitly not violate extraterritorial borders. This is basically the big deal. 90% of the time, unless it's a street level game, you're somewhere DocWagon doesn't go, because almost by definition your job is to violate extraterritorial borders.
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Oct 5, 2017 03:47
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ProfessorCirno posted:This is basically the big deal. I think this can easily be less common that some GMs make it. There are plenty of non-AAA corps out there, and not every subsidiary or site of a AAA is extra-territorial. That aside, the SINless can't walk into a hospital without paying someone. A lot of this comes down to how vicious is the GM with regards to infection, complications, and healing roll modifiers in general.
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Oct 5, 2017 04:30
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I ride bikes all day posted:Hahaha. That is just so abusive and retarded it sounds like it came off dumpshock.com. People do realize that the intention here is that the thing has a couple of arms and can act as an autodoc if you set it somewhere and lay next to it, right? Dumpshock would poo poo on that one too. You'd have to go to the Official Forums for that level of cheddar.
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Oct 5, 2017 05:32
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I ride bikes all day posted:There are plenty of non-AAA corps out there, and not every subsidiary or site of a AAA is extra-territorial. All AAs also have extraterritoriality, and all AAA/AA subsidiaries do too, if they want it. The books use running through a Stuffer Shack (an Aztechnology subsidiary) as a way to throw off a pursuit, because they have a corporate border. It's hard to overstate how much of the setting is inaccessible to DocWagon when you get right down to it.
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Oct 5, 2017 05:42
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Liquid Communism posted:Dumpshock would poo poo on that one too. You'd have to go to the Official Forums for that level of cheddar. I mean, it's a core book item, and the rules for putting it in armor are right in Run & Gun, the second main book of 5e. Core Rulebook, page 450 posted:Wireless: The Medkit provides a dice pool bonus equal to its rating to First Aid + Logic tests, or can operate itself with a dice pool of Medkit Rating x 2 and a limit equal to its Rating. Run & Gun, page 87 posted:ARMOR ADD-ON CAPACITY And if doing something from the 2nd book with something from the 1st book is somehow an egregious violation of how the game is supposed to be run to you, you could always just use a Savior Medkit instead: Chrome Flesh, page 154 posted:When activated, the medkit injects enough nanites to last fve minutes into its subject. The savior then acts as a Rating 6 medkit and follows all the normal rules for medkits (p. 450, SR5). In 4e, the dice pool for an autonomous medkit was smaller - only its Rating instead of Rating*2, I think - but all of these options were in both editions, plain as day. The only way they could be less cheesy is if you made a game Core Only in order to bar installing items in armor.
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Oct 5, 2017 06:06
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WRT Medkits in armour: *whips out maximum cheddar* Guys, putting a medikit into your valuable armour mod slots in your *snorts* suboptimal softweaved armoured jacket, just to stabilize you when you can dead man's trigger a wireless trauma patch (or get the autoinjector to do it, scrub), or to heal wounds on the run (at a -5 because -3 for "combat" and -2 for "unwilling" because you're moving), isn't ideal. A real runner gets a cloak and uses those slots for the medikit on the go. And think of all the guns you can conceal under your medi-poncho! That way, you can insure those pesky GMs can't exploit gaps in your defences and make you take wounds to stop you doing what runners do best; winning!
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Oct 5, 2017 06:11
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I'm sad that DocWagon isn't all that viable in later editions because the image of a battle ambulance busting in like a heavily armed and armored Dr. Beat is really funny to me.
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Oct 5, 2017 06:47
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I thought that adding the medkit to your armor was just for ease of carrying.  There is no way it could possibly operate successfully on you while you are running around and fighting. That's when the GM hits you over the head with the book and says no.How would that even work? Imagine trying to stitch a bleeding wound as it bounces around all over the place. That needle is only going to cause further injury. Poil fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Oct 5, 2017 |
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Oct 5, 2017 12:33
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Poil posted:I thought that adding the medkit to your armor was just for ease of carrying. It's a literal thing that its designed to do, RAW and RAI.
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Oct 5, 2017 13:38
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It's not intended to be an auto-surgeon. Think something that injects you with a cocktail of painkillers, antibiotics, maybe some local anesthetic, and a stimulant to keep you on your feet, then pumps a bunch of medical foam and sealant to try and keep you from tearing it up worse. That's a staple of combat armor in science fiction, after all.
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Oct 5, 2017 13:44
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Poil posted:How would that even work? Imagine trying to stitch a bleeding wound as it bounces around all over the place. That needle is only going to cause further injury. That's what penalties are for. Less than ideal conditions, and an uncooperative patient if you don't take a moment to sit/stand still as it works. Plus, the Savior Medkit exists too, for people who'd rather inject their medkit than wear it.
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Oct 5, 2017 13:47
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Since we're on the subject, what other nonsense cheese have you guys seen at your tables?
I ride bikes all day fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Oct 5, 2017 |
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Oct 5, 2017 15:07
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A medkit isn't a freaking drone. Now, if you built a drone for it...Piell posted:It's a literal thing that its designed to do, RAW and RAI.  Also I strongly question that it could possibly be RAI in any way, even if it was technically RAW. jagadaishio posted:That's what penalties are for. Less than ideal conditions, and an uncooperative patient if you don't take a moment to sit/stand still as it works. Plus, the Savior Medkit exists too, for people who'd rather inject their medkit than wear it. Comrade Gorbash posted:It's not intended to be an auto-surgeon. Think something that injects you with a cocktail of painkillers, antibiotics, maybe some local anesthetic, and a stimulant to keep you on your feet, then pumps a bunch of medical foam and sealant to try and keep you from tearing it up worse. That's a staple of combat armor in science fiction, after all. If you want a Savior Medkit you could just buy that and install it instead and it works like a regular Savior Medkit. That would be perfectly fine with no problems.  I ride bikes all day posted:If there's one thing I like in my role playing game, it's using interpretations of rules that make absolutely no sense because I want to make my superhero more powerful. I really need to win this role playing game. If you decide to use this at your table it's entirely your decision and all that but my opinion is that it's pretty much just bullshit and I would get my balls in a whiny twist over it if someone attempted it at a table with me. I ride bikes all day posted:Since we're on the subject, what other nonsense cheese have you guys seen at your tables?
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Oct 5, 2017 16:02
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