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yronic heroism posted:What's sad is you dodging questions you don't want to answer. gwb didn't invade iraq to protect kurds, or anyone. that wasn't his initial rationale for invading either (it was WMDs). love that you keep trying to defend the iraq war to back up your argument though again, really sad yronic stone cold posted:punching nazis isn't preemption, it's reaction to political violence through genocidal rhetoric stone cold posted:it's also extremely good to do 
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Oct 4, 2017 00:53
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Condiv posted:gwb didn't invade iraq to protect kurds, or anyone. that wasn't his initial rationale for invading either (it was WMDs). love that you keep trying to defend the iraq war to back up your argument though Nah I'm just comparing other totalitarian murderous regimes to Nazi Germany. It's a thing, talk to a political scientist. Nice try though. FDR didn't go to war to protect European Jews either, so obviously it's not the motive of the president that really bothers you. So I ask again, was Saddam genocidal or not? Why can't you answer this question? yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Oct 4, 2017 |
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Oct 4, 2017 01:03
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Like an actual nuanced thinker would be able to articulate an actual difference between wars, but this is Condiv so I'm not holding my breath.
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Oct 4, 2017 01:05
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yronic heroism posted:Nah I'm just comparing other totalitarian murderous regimes to Nazi Germany. It's a thing, talk to a political scientist. Nice try though. i'm not bothering with your dumb question cause you're trying to pivot out of your own dumb argument into another one you think will go better for you sorry, but i'm not gonna help you shift goalposts yronic 
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Oct 4, 2017 01:07
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Condiv wants to whitewash the Kurdish genocide, got it.
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Oct 4, 2017 01:08
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yronic heroism posted:Condiv wants to whitewash the Kurdish genocide, got it.  this is really sad even for you yronic
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Oct 4, 2017 01:10
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yronic heroism posted:Condiv wants to whitewash the Kurdish genocide, got it. yes that's why we went in right after the genocide to take saddam to face justice for crimes against humanity in the hague in 1989 and not in 2003 oh wait also like cry your crocodile tears all you like, i don't hear you complaining the us didn't oust suharto either it's almost as though empire is complicit in crimes against humanity it or its allies commit
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Oct 4, 2017 01:13
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i dunno yronic makes some compelling points. why WONT condiv condemn the armenian genocide???????
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Oct 4, 2017 01:17
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Calibanibal posted:i dunno yronic makes some compelling points. why WONT condiv condemn the kurdish genocide??????? Is Condiv Saddam?
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Oct 4, 2017 01:18
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yronic heroism posted:boring and stupid
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Oct 4, 2017 01:19
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stone cold posted:yes that's why we went in right after the genocide to take saddam to face justice for crimes against humanity in the hague in 1989 and not in 2003 That wasn't the issue though. No one is saying the US shouldn't have taken action in WWII since it was motivated by geopolitical considerations rather than humanitarian ones. The takeaway is this: everyone believes in preemption so suggesting it's some unique liberal ideology doesn't pass the smell test. yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Oct 4, 2017 |
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Oct 4, 2017 01:25
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yronic heroism posted:That wasn't the issue though. No one is saying the US shouldn't have taken action in WWII since it was motivated by geopolitical considerations rather than humanitarian ones. you're the one making the claim that condiv is whitewashing a genocide you should be able to back it up
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Oct 4, 2017 01:26
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it's almost like r2p only comes into play when commodities are at stake rather than people
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Oct 4, 2017 01:28
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stone cold posted:you're the one making the claim that condiv is whitewashing a genocide He won't acknowledge the Kurdish genocide when asked for the simple reason he'd have to say "actually the simplistic analysis I used earlier is incomplete because I want to paint myself as a crusader against genocide and don't want to admit sometimes I will not support using force against a genocidal authoritarian."
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Oct 4, 2017 01:31
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So domino theory was about stopping anti-capitalism and not about defending capitalism, which is a really important distinction and not at all pedantic. Got it.
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Oct 4, 2017 01:34
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stone cold posted:political violence through genocidal rhetoric Open conspiracy to murder.
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Oct 4, 2017 01:35
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yronic heroism posted:That wasn't the issue though. No one is saying the US shouldn't have taken action in WWII since it was motivated by geopolitical considerations rather than humanitarian ones. Speaking of, this article makes an interesting case that the US could have prevented the Holocaust by not declaring war on Germany and evacuating the Jews et al. A reposted PDF since harpers has a paywall: https://dorsheitzedek.org/sites/default/files/managed/Baker%20Why%20I%27m%20a%20Pacifist.pdf quote:By 1941, as Congress was debating the Lend-Lease Act, which would provide military aid to Britain and other Allies, the enormity of the risk became clear, if it wasn’t al- ready, to anyone who could read a newspaper. On February 28, 1941, the New York Times carried a trou- bling dispatch from Vienna: “Many Jews here believe that Jews through- out Europe will be more or less hos- tages against the United States’ en- try into the war. Some fear that even an appreciable amount of help for Britain from the United States may precipitate whatever plan the Reichsfuehrer had in mind when, in recent speeches, he spoke of the elimination of Jews from Europe ‘un- der certain circumstances.’ ”
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Oct 4, 2017 01:38
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yronic heroism posted:He won't acknowledge the Kurdish genocide when asked for the simple reason he'd have to say "actually the simplistic analysis I used earlier is incomplete because I want to paint myself as a crusader against genocide and don't want to admit sometimes I will not support using force against a genocidal authoritarian." i'm sorry i don't support the iraq war like you do yronic 
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Oct 4, 2017 01:39
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yronic heroism posted:He won't acknowledge the Kurdish genocide when asked for the simple reason he'd have to say "actually the simplistic analysis I used earlier is incomplete because I want to paint myself as a crusader against genocide and don't want to admit sometimes I will not support using force against a genocidal authoritarian." but you don't acknowledge that the genocide took place in 1989 which is this many years off from 2003 🖐🖐☝️☝️☝️☝️ so again isn't it kind of funny how r2p comes into play when commodities are at risk and not people
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Oct 4, 2017 01:40
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Nevvy Z posted:Open conspiracy to murder. attempted crimes against humanity
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Oct 4, 2017 01:41
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Trabisnikof posted:Speaking of, this article makes an interesting case that the US could have prevented the Holocaust by not declaring war on Germany and evacuating the Jews et al. Uh the Nazis declared war on us first. Is this article arguing the US shouldn't have declared war on Japan because if so lol
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Oct 4, 2017 01:43
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stone cold posted:but you don't acknowledge that the genocide took place in 1989 which is this many years off from 2003 🖐🖐☝️☝️☝️☝️ We are still talking about punching Nazis 70 years later
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Oct 4, 2017 01:46
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yronic heroism posted:We are still talking about punching Nazis 70 years later we still have nazis, did you forget? charlottesville was <2 months ago, in case you forgot now, what does that have to do with you pretending that pointing out Condiv posted:gwb didn't invade iraq to protect kurds, or anyone. that wasn't his initial rationale for invading either (it was WMDs). love that you keep trying to defend the iraq war to back up your argument though means whitewashing genocide
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Oct 4, 2017 01:49
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JeffersonClay posted:Uh the Nazis declared war on us first. Is this article arguing the US shouldn't have declared war on Japan because if so lol but don't you see, clearly the americans made the germans do a genocide
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Oct 4, 2017 01:50
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stone cold posted:we still have nazis, did you forget? charlottesville was <2 months ago, in case you forgot In 2003 the world still had Saddam. stone cold posted:means whitewashing genocide So a dismissive mention of the Kurds and no acknowledgment of the genocide against them by the poster who brought genocide into the discussion. Looks like whitewashing to me.
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Oct 4, 2017 01:55
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Condiv posted:i'm sorry i don't support the iraq war like you do yronic I don't support it, so I guess that means you do.
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Oct 4, 2017 01:57
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stone cold posted:but don't you see, clearly the americans made the germans do a genocide More that America had opportunities to save people from the Holocaust that we didn't take because we didn't really like the Jews and it was more important to not negotiate with a hostage taker than to even try.
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Oct 4, 2017 01:59
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Trabisnikof posted:More that America had opportunities to save people from the Holocaust that we didn't take because we didn't really like the Jews and it was more important to not negotiate with a hostage taker than to even try. so do you want to punch nazis or negotiate with them JESUS
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Oct 4, 2017 02:04
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Badger of Basra posted:so do you want to punch nazis or negotiate with them JESUS Negotiate to save as many hostages as we can then punch?
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Oct 4, 2017 02:06
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What negotiation do you envision could have happened?
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Oct 4, 2017 02:20
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yronic heroism posted:In 2003 the world still had Saddam. even fukuyama disavowed your brand of neocon nonsense Trabisnikof posted:More that America had opportunities to save people from the Holocaust that we didn't take because we didn't really like the Jews and it was more important to not negotiate with a hostage taker than to even try. ill give you the former but the latter is super loving stupid
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Oct 4, 2017 02:24
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Trabisnikof posted:More that America had opportunities to save people from the Holocaust that we didn't take because we didn't really like the Jews and it was more important to not negotiate with a hostage taker than to even try. If only we had let the Nazis have full control of Europe, we could have stopped the holocaust. makes u think
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Oct 4, 2017 02:31
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yronic heroism posted:What negotiation do you envision could have happened? The USA was in routine negotiations with Nazi Germany during the war over transfers of POWs, so having negotiations was doable. I have no idea if a doable deal would have ever been brokered, but the larger point is we didn't even try. People were advocating this at the time too, this isn't just hindsight. quote:What mattered, Gollancz held, was, and he put it in italics, the saving of life now. The German government had to be approached immediately and asked to allow Jews to emigrate. The Allies had nothing to lose with such a proposal. “If refused, that would strip Hitler of the excuse that he cannot afford to fill useless mouths,” Gollancz wrote. “If accept- ed, it would not frustrate the econom- ic blockade, because Hitler’s alterna- tive is not feeding but extermination.” I'm not convinced, as is often true for hypotheticals like this, it is impossible to know how many more could have been saved (USA immigration restrictions certainly place a floor). But I find it an interesting argument especially when it was made during the war.
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Oct 4, 2017 02:31
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stone cold posted:even fukuyama disavowed your brand of neocon nonsense Neocons are high on my shitlist, I'm just aware that half of this forum is not neocon/libertarian simply because the zeitgeist moved on. Many of our usual whiners would swallow that poo poo in an instant if it became cool. It's easy to go along. Hell, a whole society went along with Hitler so putting it on perspective it's easy to see how a bunch of neckbeards became neocons. (They already have the same fashion sense.)
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Oct 4, 2017 02:32
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JeffersonClay posted:So domino theory was about stopping anti-capitalism and not about defending capitalism, which is a really important distinction and not at all pedantic. Got it. The domino theory was about ignoring our own intelligence about the likelihood of communism spreading so that we could locally enforce the will of "our guy" except wait no get a new one in there
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Oct 4, 2017 02:32
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dearest hitler: we will fully endorse your claims to europe as a continent only for the aryan race, but only if you ship us all your jews with love, Franklin D. Roosevelt
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Oct 4, 2017 02:33
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yronic heroism posted:Neocons are high on my shitlist, I'm just aware that half of this forum is not neocon/libertarian simply because the zeitgeist moved on. Many of our usual whiners would swallow that poo poo in an instant if it became cool. It's easy to go along. Hell, a whole society went along with Hitler so it's easy to see how a bunch of neckbeards became neocons. you're claiming the removal of saddam hussein had to do with the Kurdish genocide when it didn't so have you considered looking in a mirror
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Oct 4, 2017 02:34
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Trabisnikof posted:The USA was in routine negotiations with Nazi Germany during the war over transfers of POWs, so having negotiations was doable. I have no idea if a doable deal would have ever been brokered, but the larger point is we didn't even try. People were advocating this at the time too, this isn't just hindsight What concessions would you offer for X number of hostages in this situation and if the point of the hostage is to have a human shield why would the hostage taker give them up?
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Oct 4, 2017 02:36
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stone cold posted:you're claiming the removal of saddam hussein had to do with the Kurdish genocide when it didn't so have you considered looking in a mirror  Also Saddam basically got removed because he was seen as a bad guy in a strategic region and Bush thought that was a good enough reason. Society was scared into going along but the actual WMD claim was an obvious pretext. The genocide was a definite part of pointing out Saddam was a bad guy. Many of our Bold Internet Leftists would fall in love with the war if only the guy was explicitly calling himself a Nazi instead of a rebranding. Which isn't surprising considering how many neocons are converted radical leftists. yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Oct 4, 2017 |
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Oct 4, 2017 02:41
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JeffersonClay posted:So domino theory was about stopping anti-capitalism and not about defending capitalism, which is a really important distinction and not at all pedantic. Got it. It is very telling that you think distinctions between aggression and defense are unimportant and pedantic.
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Oct 4, 2017 02:55
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