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Char posted:First of all, 2-3 million people can and will influence other people, for, right now, Spain is still a country which includes Catalonia. This is something you cannot really twist either way: a minority of the population is acting in disrespect of the majority. That being said, from what I'm seeing, it looks like the aforementioned majority is content in how the government handled everything until now, and it doesn't look like the government cared for anything such minority asked
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Oct 4, 2017 05:24
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Has spain said anything aboutbwhatbthey will do if Independencenis drclared? Will catlonia expel any "foreign agents"? have we seen any document bufning in spanisj installations in Catalonia?
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Oct 4, 2017 05:42
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Char posted:I don't see which crisis spurred the need to ask for independence - feel free to educate me in case I'm wrong. Even the loving US seceded back in the day because they hated paying taxes and obeying the laws of a nation they no longer felt part of. There doesn't need to be a crisis, there just needs to exist a general sentiment that: 1. These people are not us 2. We can exist without them 3. Things will never get better if we stay with them We already know that condition 2 has been true for Catalonia for a while, condition 1 has had legitimacy for centuries and condition 3 was just ticked by the police action during the referendum.
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Oct 4, 2017 05:54
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If catalonia is going to leave, maybe it's time to Make Cornwall Great Again? By the by, is there anywhere to read up on all the various past/present separatist groups that exist in Europe?
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Oct 4, 2017 06:01
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is there any projection of how the catalonian government would look?
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Oct 4, 2017 06:16
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I just can't see any exit here that doesn't involve massive bloodshed or Catalan Independence. Can the EU and the Spanish people stomach a genocide or apartheid state in a stable EU country? If not Catalonia will obtain Independence.
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Oct 4, 2017 06:17
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LeoMarr posted:is there any projection of how the catalonian government would look? Six feet under if Spain does what its signaling it's going to do. EDIT: Like nothing about the situation since last weekend is not terrifying. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Oct 4, 2017 |
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Oct 4, 2017 06:19
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What's insane is that the supporters of Rajoy call this a "coup." In what loving world?
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Oct 4, 2017 06:23
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If we're going to pedantic they are correct, since with the legality of the situation it could arguably be considered a coup of the Catalonian regional government by the sitting politicians (since they're violating the constitution). Not that it actually matters at all within the current context.
MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Oct 4, 2017 |
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Oct 4, 2017 06:25
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Right now, a lot of people are in the state of mind "we are right, they are wrong and everything is their fault", the actual truth of the matter has become irrelevant. If someone does not blink and backs down a little, poo poo is going to hit the fan soon.
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Oct 4, 2017 06:49
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LeoMarr posted:is there any projection of how the catalonian government would look? Probably a lot like its current government, which is made up of the Junts pel Sì coalition (together for yes), made up of a centre-right party (PDeCat) and a sort of social-democratic party (ERC, Republican Left of Catalonia). They have a pro-independence majority in the regional parliament thanks to the support of the CUP, an anticapitalist, socialist pro-environment party, which probably doesn't agree on much of anything with the other two parties except for independence. Most other parties in the regional parliament are branches of the parties represented in the national Spanish parliament, the Cortes. The CUP managed as a condition for its support to get the former leader of the PDeCat removed for his involvement in a party financing scandal (PDeCat officials would charge businesses a standard 3% off the top of any public contracts; also the late leader of the main Catalan nationalist coalition was later discovered to have had large secret bank accounts in Andorra and Switzerland), but their support won't be necessary for anything if Catalonia gains dependence. This is not going to be a leftwing revolution, Catalan separatism is largely a bourgeois movement, and Catalan politicians aren't all that much more cleaner or more ethical than their Spanish counterparts.
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Oct 4, 2017 06:56
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MiddleOne posted:If we're going to pedantic they are correct, since with the legality of the situation it could arguably be considered a coup of the Catalonian regional government by the sitting politicians (since they're violating the constitution). Not that it actually matters at all within the current context. Okay, so whst re they going to do? a night raid against the entire government? Population wakes up to Spainish troops on the streets
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Oct 4, 2017 06:56
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the american revolution was more political than it was ethno-national. Many considered themselves Englishmen, just unfairly poo poo on by the king. I don't think it's a good comparison. I don't think language is the only thing to consider in culture, but it's a pretty good indication that a region does in fact have a separate culture with its own identity and might legitimately need their own state.
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Oct 4, 2017 06:57
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LeoMarr posted:Okay, so whst re they going to do? a night raid against the entire government? Population wakes up to Spainish troops on the streets I would assume that they're going to try to arrest the entire sitting cabinet on Friday. If that fails the only option left is to either dissolve the Catalonian government and roll in the army or accept Catalonian independence. TheDeadlyShoe posted:the american revolution was more political than it was ethno-national. Many considered themselves Englishmen, just unfairly poo poo on by the king. I don't think it's a good comparison. There is no meaningful distinction to be made between ethno-national and political. Or to put it in better terms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp5QabWeUUw MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Oct 4, 2017 |
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Oct 4, 2017 07:08
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So the king spoke on TV and took the government's position, really solidly. I understand where his interest lies, even formally he has to be the custodian of the constitution (first time he cares tho), but not even some conciliatory noises?? Not even some "maybe you guys should talk"? No? Just "irresponsible catalans, sit down and shut up?" Why on hell did we pay an expensive education in politics in America, bro? Look at the loving monarchy ruin poo poo for us AGAIN. ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Can the EU and the Spanish people stomach a genocide or apartheid state in a stable EU country?
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Oct 4, 2017 07:12
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Can the EU and the Spanish people stomach a genocide or apartheid state in a stable EU country? Polite reminder that the Troubles didn't officially end until 1998.
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Oct 4, 2017 07:15
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Regular reminder: The EU is fighting really hard in Eastern Europe to have governments respect the law and their constitution. No one is going to back the populist separatists who ignore the laws and ruling by the constitutional court over police actions that happen in every country (e.g. G20 in Germany, G8 meetings, football games etc.).
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Oct 4, 2017 07:45
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Just look at Turkey the last year. Unless they kill more than like 1000 people there probably won't even be sanctions. And I really doubt they will or even have to. LeoMarr posted:Okay, so whst re they going to do? a night raid against the entire government? Population wakes up to Spainish troops on the streets Yeah probably
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Oct 4, 2017 07:49
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Spain is not Turkey.
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Oct 4, 2017 08:14
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The attempted coup in Turkey was actually a minority trying to take over the government against the will of a majority of the population.
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Oct 4, 2017 08:28
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blowfish posted:The United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, and the Various Secessionist Continental Provinces? Looks good to me 
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Oct 4, 2017 08:46
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Char posted:
The only crisis I can think of is political: the catalonian government is a coalition of three completely different parties that only agree on the independence issue, so I'd wager this referendum business has been only a political maneuver to keep the coalition afloat gone horribly wrong and that they can't stop unless they commit political suicide. Char posted:My question since the beginning is, more or less: how come the average Spanish citizen isn't asking for the head of Rajoy and co., given how much incompetence has been displayed in handling this situation, given how the government managed to jeopardize the quality of life of both Spanish and Catalonian citizens? This situation is being valued with a sufficiently rational eye? What's on the "Pros" side of the scale here, for the average Spanish citizen? The average spaniard does not like Rajoy, but likes nationalism even less. Everybody agrees there are no pros in this situation, though: both Catalonia and Spain are going to get hosed.
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Oct 4, 2017 08:46
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Double Bill posted:Looks good to me Reform the entire EU to match 867's borders.
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Oct 4, 2017 08:50
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Aviron posted:The only crisis I can think of is political: the catalonian government is a coalition of three completely different parties that only agree on the independence issue, so I'd wager this referendum business has been only a political maneuver to keep the coalition afloat gone horribly wrong and that they can't stop unless they commit political suicide. It's actually the other way around: the coalition was explicitly formed to pursue independence and campaigned on that basis. Only the first two parties are in the government, and they only have a majority thanks to the support of the third, completely different, party (and also the Catalan electoral system, because the three parties do not represent a majority of votes cast in the last regional election).
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Oct 4, 2017 08:55
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Phlegmish posted:Only in the Basque Country do you have a separatist movement that even comes close to that of Catalonia. The rest is either thoroughly Castilianized or has no particular interest in seceding (Galicia). There's not going to be a domino effect. Uh speak for yourself. Asturias es España y lo demás tierra conquistada.
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Oct 4, 2017 09:04
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qkkl posted:The attempted coup in Turkey was actually a minority trying to take over the government against the will of a majority of the population. Yeah but the subsequent "cleansing" of the military and political / public offices with thousands of people ending up in jail or without a job had what reaction from the European member states?
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Oct 4, 2017 09:24
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Sereri posted:Yeah but the subsequent "cleansing" of the military and political / public offices with thousands of people ending up in jail or without a job had what reaction from the European member states? The appropriate reaction, since EU states agree that criminals and traitors should be sent to prison or executed. Now if it was the government who was at fault and was illegally retaining power despite the will of the people, and used violence to illegally keep power, then EU states would have had a different reaction.
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Oct 4, 2017 09:36
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Dawncloack posted:So the king spoke on TV and took the government's position, really solidly. He is fairly right from his point of view, referendum was illegal, forcing one was illegal and as it was illegal only people who were for independence showed up. Hence it makes it undemocratic. He is also the "keeper" of Spain, no king wants to be the one who will let his country fall in pieces. Even if the way the Spanish government handled it, is probably the hard/wrong way, it's done so he has to get along with it to not undermine the overall stance. (and well if Spain wants to get Gibraltar one day they have to play tough /s)
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Oct 4, 2017 09:36
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What can we realistically expect from today's session of the EU parliament in regards of the Catalan independence?
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Oct 4, 2017 09:36
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Sereri posted:Yeah but the subsequent "cleansing" of the military and political / public offices with thousands of people ending up in jail or without a job had what reaction from the European member states? Didn't it effectively kill their membership bid?
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Oct 4, 2017 09:41
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Gum posted:Didn't it effectively kill their membership bid? In practice it was dead a long time before that
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Oct 4, 2017 09:44
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Angry Lobster posted:What can we realistically expect from today's session of the EU parliament in regards of the Catalan independence? Nothing of any value
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Oct 4, 2017 09:46
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Andrast posted:In practice it was dead a long time before that Oh yeah but based on some of the posts on this page you'd think they got a pat on the back
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Oct 4, 2017 09:46
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Andrast posted:In practice it was dead a long time before that Yeah, virtually all that changed was that everyone stopped pretending it was ever going to happen.
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Oct 4, 2017 10:15
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Angry Lobster posted:What can we realistically expect from today's session of the EU parliament in regards of the Catalan independence? A lot of waffling. Does Puigdemont have a date set for a declaration of independence? Wonder if we're going to see more arrests before that.
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Oct 4, 2017 10:30
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I keep hearing Friday but who knows
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Oct 4, 2017 10:37
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Angry Lobster posted:Right now, a lot of people are in the state of mind "we are right, they are wrong and everything is their fault", the actual truth of the matter has become irrelevant. If someone does not blink and backs down a little, poo poo is going to hit the fan soon. Absolutely this. There is 100% a role for the EU here to break through this impasse and get people talking before someone does something which leads to more violence. I don't think anyone wants another Yugoslavia, but at the same time it seems noone can be bothered to do the work required to make 100% sure we prevent this.
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Oct 4, 2017 10:44
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MiddleOne posted:I keep hearing Friday but who knows He said Friday or early next week. We'll probably know more today.
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Oct 4, 2017 10:45
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Char posted:First of all, 2-3 million people can and will influence other people, for, right now, Spain is still a country which includes Catalonia. This is something you cannot really twist either way: a minority of the population is acting in disrespect of the majority. That being said, from what I'm seeing, it looks like the aforementioned majority is content in how the government handled everything until now Evidently the Catalan minority doesn't find the Castilian majority to be sufficiently protective, hence the protests. Were you upset at Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King, too? I mean, the white majority was content in how the US government handled everything back then. Tarantula posted:If catalonia is going to leave, maybe it's time to Make Cornwall Great Again? By the by, is there anywhere to read up on all the various past/present separatist groups that exist in Europe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe Note that this doesn't cover independentist movements in overseas territories of European countries.
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Oct 4, 2017 11:03
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qkkl posted:The appropriate reaction, since EU states agree that criminals and traitors should be sent to prison or executed. Now if it was the government who was at fault and was illegally retaining power despite the will of the people, and used violence to illegally keep power, then EU states would have had a different reaction. They were and they are, Erdogan is only small step from dictator. He already imprisons his political opponents, persecutes minorities and has increased his personal power at the expense of other elected representatives. Depending on how much you trust the international observers of the referendum on his power, he both did use violence and illegal means to acquire this power. It is not treason to fight against such a man.
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Oct 4, 2017 11:08
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