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MiddleOne posted:I keep hearing Friday but who knows For reference: On the 6th of October of 1934 Catalonia declared independence from Spain. According to wikipedia, it lasted a whole 11 hours.
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Oct 4, 2017 11:10
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Yikes, I didn't realize we were heading for a milestone date.
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Oct 4, 2017 11:13
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Fat Samurai posted:For reference: On the 6th of October of 1934 Catalonia declared independence from Spain. According to wikipedia, it lasted a whole 11 hours. Wow, they didn't even last as long as Carpatho-Ukraine. Anyway, Puigdemont will make a statement this evening and a new session of the Catalan Parlament has been scheduled for Monday, so that's the earliest they could conceivably declare independence.
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Oct 4, 2017 11:18
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Cat Mattress posted:The rule of the majority is acceptable as long as it includes sufficient protections for minorities. Let's not compare the Black rights movement to a bunch of nacionalists whose reasons for independence are mostly economical, tia
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Oct 4, 2017 11:38
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A Buttery Pastry posted:So, what you're actually saying is that the majority disrespected those 2-3 million people first. What you're demanding isn't for the Catalonians to show respect, its for them to be cowed. No, what I said is that until Sunday neither party had any reason to exact more respect compared to what they were currently given, and if I'm mistaken, I'd like to be educated on why, because I'm seeing the situation as two parties telling FYGM at each other. MiddleOne posted:Even the loving US seceded back in the day because they hated paying taxes and obeying the laws of a nation they no longer felt part of. There doesn't need to be a crisis, there just needs to exist a general sentiment that: No arguments against condition 1, but what makes people so sure condition 2 and 3 are true? I mean, it seems like between Saturday and Sunday, the opinions about 2 and 3 were much different - and "police action" is relevant, but it cannot be so relevant it tips the scale unless these action were in line with the will of the majority. Once again: are the actions of the ruling parties really representative of what people think? And, once again, I do not live in Spain, so I don't know what people across all regions think, and I'm putting my own biases in this thought. Cat Mattress posted:The rule of the majority is acceptable as long as it includes sufficient protections for minorities. See, when I said "there's no crisis", it's because I don't think "FYGM" and rights movements are really the same thing. Anyway, I am upset with the GC because it showed massive political incompetence, I am upset with the police because how they handled the situation is completely unacceptable, I don't know if I should be upset about a population which has no respect for a minority group -because I have no proof of such lack of respect, otherwise I'd be- and I am upset about a political group acting in representation of a minority within a minority, threatening to use a nuclear option, when there are other valid options which would be less counterproductive for the whole population. There's only bad guys in this story. Now, if the rest of Spain thinks Catalonia got what it deserved, the nuclear option is sadly the only valid one. If a significant part of the population is in total disagreement on how the government handled the situation, this is damaging a country for no good reason. Char fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Oct 4, 2017 |
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Oct 4, 2017 11:51
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Char posted:-because I have no proof of such lack of respect, otherwise I'd be- Plenty of evidence has been posted on this thread. If you want to educate yourself, read back a couple of pages. And let me preempt the obvious response: No, it's not as bad as Israel and Palestine but so what?
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Oct 4, 2017 12:23
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Char posted:Now, if the rest of Spain thinks Catalonia got what it deserved, the nuclear option is sadly the only valid one. If a significant part of the population is in total disagreement on how the government handled the situation, this is damaging a country for no good reason.
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Oct 4, 2017 12:37
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Char posted:Now, if the rest of Spain thinks Catalonia got what it deserved, the nuclear option is sadly the only valid one. If a significant part of the population is in total disagreement on how the government handled the situation, this is damaging a country for no good reason. Which I'm sure will go swimmingly and everything will be wonderful. You keep talking about Catalonia as some separate entity that's behaving badly, instead of being a part of your nation you need to compromise with. If your government just refuses to talk to them*, back down from the threat of military occupation or offer any kind of alternative to independence, what exactly do you think Catalonia is going to do? Your government is forcing them to independence, and has been doing that for decades. The rest of Spain as it exists as a singular political entity, really has no one but themselves to blame at this point is my argument. Your government made this happen, not the Catalonians. BBC posted:In his BBC interview, Carles Puigdemont said his government would "act at the end of this week or the beginning of next".
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Oct 4, 2017 12:38
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I think the Catalans will bottle it.
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Oct 4, 2017 12:52
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Aviron posted:Let's not compare the Black rights movement to a bunch of nacionalists whose reasons for independence are mostly economical, tia If the reasons were mostly economical, the movement would be mostly anecdotic. They'd be clowns like Lega Nord in Italy who wants the independence of Padania. If it got traction, it's for other reasons, such as language.
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Oct 4, 2017 12:53
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Yes, as I've said before, you just don't get a mass movement like that just by invoking economic reasons. About half the Catalan population is in favor of independence (after Sunday probably significantly more), and that's absolutely huge, especially given that people usually prefer the status quo. It's almost without comparison in the rest of Europe. It could have been a wake-up call for Madrid to examine the reasons behind this phenomenon, but instead they suppress it by force and accuse Catalans of being selfish.
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Oct 4, 2017 13:02
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Pissflaps posted:I think the Catalans will bottle it. Not sold on that, too much people seems keen in the independence or bust bandwagon, no matter the consequences. What I'm wondering is what will do the nearly other half of the population who doesn't support independence but have remained silent so far.
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Oct 4, 2017 13:07
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Phlegmish posted:Yes, as I've said before, you just don't get a mass movement like that just by invoking economic reasons. About half the Catalan population is in favor of independence (after Sunday probably significantly more), and that's absolutely huge, especially given that people usually prefer the status quo. It's almost without comparison in the rest of Europe.
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Oct 4, 2017 13:08
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The BBC is saying:quote:Carles Puigdemont said his government would "act at the end of this week or the beginning of next". Groups in the Catalan parliament have agreed that parliament should meet in full assembly on Monday. Mr Puigdemont could use that occasion to make a unilateral declaration of independence. So I'd say Monday will be the day to watch.
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Oct 4, 2017 13:32
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Blut posted:The BBC is saying: At this point it's a game of chicken. The Catalans want Madrid to blink under international/EU pressure to accept international mediation, which they could sell their base as a victory. I doubt they have an actual plan to declare independence, since it would completely gently caress them, their economy and even their soccer team.
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Oct 4, 2017 13:37
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GaussianCopula posted:At this point it's a game of chicken. The Catalans want Madrid to blink under international/EU pressure to accept international mediation, which they could sell their base as a victory. I doubt they have an actual plan to declare independence, since it would completely gently caress them, their economy and even their soccer team. Is anybody actually applying pressure for mediation to take place?
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Oct 4, 2017 13:40
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Cat Mattress posted:If the reasons were mostly economical, the movement would be mostly anecdotic. They'd be clowns like Lega Nord in Italy who wants the independence of Padania. If it got traction, it's for other reasons, such as language. Phlegmish posted:Yes, as I've said before, you just don't get a mass movement like that just by invoking economic reasons. About half the Catalan population is in favor of independence (after Sunday probably significantly more), and that's absolutely huge, especially given that people usually prefer the status quo. It's almost without comparison in the rest of Europe. Brexit and Trump happened and those were mostly economical reasons supported by nationalist demagogy. Same thing. There's a reason the Catalan separatist motto is basically synonymous to "taxes are theft". The Spanish government is definitely to blame for the current situation, but the independentists aren't the romantic, oppressed freedom fighters pictured by people who only learned about this situation last weekend. Even if they were it still wouldn't be ok to secede without so much as 50% support from their own people. The only way forward is to hold a proper referendum and negotiate afterwards.
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Oct 4, 2017 13:41
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GaussianCopula posted:At this point it's a game of chicken. The Catalans want Madrid to blink under international/EU pressure to accept international mediation, which they could sell their base as a victory. I doubt they have an actual plan to declare independence, since it would completely gently caress them, their economy and even their soccer team. It would completely gently caress their economy? But I thought they were being selfish. Which is it?
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Oct 4, 2017 13:43
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Phlegmish posted:It would completely gently caress their economy? But I thought they were being selfish. Which is it? The separatists are being selfish by not wanting to pay their fair share of tax as a comparatively rich region in Spain. But they're also being exceptionally naive (or just lying to their voters) by thinking the Catalan economy won't tank if they exit both Spain and the EU. So basically both selfish and stupid.
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Oct 4, 2017 13:45
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I got you. They're all the bad adjectives. Anything to avoid actually taking an in-depth look at the phenomenon of Catalanism.
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Oct 4, 2017 13:47
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Phlegmish posted:I got you. They're all the bad adjectives. Anything to avoid actually taking an in-depth look at the phenomenon of Catalanism. Spanish nationalism is just cover for that.
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Oct 4, 2017 13:49
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Elman posted:The only way forward is to hold a proper referendum and negotiate afterwards. Well they tried to do that. You know, couple of days ago?
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Oct 4, 2017 13:50
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Phlegmish posted:I got you. They're all the bad adjectives. Anything to avoid actually taking an in-depth look at the phenomenon of Catalanism. Saying "you're calling them bad things" isn't really a counterpoint.. Are you arguing that they aren't trying to avoid paying their fair share of taxes as a rich region? Or are you arguing that leaving Spain and the EU would be good for the Catalan economy? "Taking an in-depth look at the phenomenon of Catalanism" doesn't refute either of those, which are the key economic factors at play here.
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Oct 4, 2017 13:54
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lollontee posted:Well they tried to do that. You know, couple of days ago? They've got a great catch 22 going on, you can't declare independence without a legitimate referendum, which btw we will brutally suppress. ĄJeque mate Catalosers!
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Oct 4, 2017 13:54
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Phlegmish posted:It would completely gently caress their economy? But I thought they were being selfish. Which is it? People in Britain voted for Brexit because they believed the EU is ripping them off. The phenomenon is called "populism".
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Oct 4, 2017 13:55
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Pissflaps posted:Is anybody actually applying pressure for mediation to take place? Like half of the EU's foreign ministers have been dropping variants of 'Spain is in the right but now is the time for meeting in the middle'. Everyone is terrified of picking a side in case things get bloody and just want this to go away.
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Oct 4, 2017 13:55
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Only those with the right motivations may call themselves a nation.
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Oct 4, 2017 13:58
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Blut posted:Saying "you're calling them bad things" isn't really a counterpoint.. Are you arguing that they aren't trying to avoid paying their fair share of taxes as a rich region? Or are you arguing that leaving Spain and the EU would be good for the Catalan economy? I am only refuting that it is the main factor behind Catalan separatism. If economic factors are enough to spawn a mass movement involving literally millions of people (out of a population of 7.5 million), why don't we see the same phenomenon in other countries? Where are the million-man marches in Flanders, Northern Italy, West Germany? Presumably because Spanish nationalists and their supporters have no response to this, I'm seeing these nonsensical comparisons to Brexit or Trump instead. Neither of those involved the creation of a new nation-state, and regardless, in both cases the economy was only one of many factors involved.
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Oct 4, 2017 14:03
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Phlegmish posted:I am only refuting that it is the main factor behind Catalan separatism. If economic factors are enough to spawn a mass movement involving literally millions of people (out of a population of 7.5 million), why don't we see the same phenomenon in other countries? Where are the million-man marches in Flanders, Northern Italy, West Germany? Nobody said it was the main factor behind Catalan separatism, thats a strawman of your own construction. Its a main economic factor.
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Oct 4, 2017 14:07
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Future historians will be shocked to discover that Catalonian sentiments for independence were actually not that strong until they started reading this thread.
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Oct 4, 2017 14:11
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lollontee posted:Well they tried to do that. You know, couple of days ago? They tried to do an illegal referendum, the law on which its based on was forced through the Catalonian parliament without discussion from the opposition (which is the main reason 60+% Catalonians did not go to vote).
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Oct 4, 2017 14:11
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Aviron posted:They tried to do an illegal referendum, the law on which its based on was forced through the Catalonian parliament without discussion from the opposition (which is the main reason 60+% Catalonians did not go to vote). Oh my god shut uuuuuuuuup, this particular facet of the discussion is even more irrelevant this week than it was the last. Also, since the federal police brutalized 800 people during the weekend and shut down ballot locations across the regions we will never ever have accurate information on how the referendum could have turned out.
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Oct 4, 2017 14:12
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Angry Lobster posted:Not sold on that, too much people seems keen in the independence or bust bandwagon, no matter the consequences. What I'm wondering is what will do the nearly other half of the population who doesn't support independence but have remained silent so far. Any pre-1-O poll is worthless now. Sunday changed everything. I really want to see the new numbers.
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Oct 4, 2017 14:15
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Blut posted:Nobody said it was the main factor behind Catalan separatism, thats a strawman of your own construction. Its a main economic factor. Several people on this very page of the thread said that Catalans only want independence because money.
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Oct 4, 2017 14:21
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Phlegmish posted:Any pre-1-O poll is worthless now. Sunday changed everything. I really want to see the new numbers. We don't know poo poo, there is no reliable data anymore and I doubt there will be in the near future.
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Oct 4, 2017 14:21
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Aviron posted:They tried to do an illegal referendum, the law on which its based on was forced through the Catalonian parliament without discussion from the opposition (which is the main reason 60+% Catalonians did not go to vote). Ok dude, they still tried to do a referendum. Your government had plenty of time to come up with alternatives in the time it took for this to happen. And they didn't. And they're still refusing to do so. And so here we are.
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Oct 4, 2017 14:25
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GaussianCopula posted:People in Britain voted for Brexit because they believed the EU is ripping them off. The phenomenon is called "populism". It's called demagogy. "Populism" is a buzzword used to make all criticism of neoliberalism and capitalism look bad, regardless of its validity. YF-23 posted:Several people on this very page of the thread said that Catalans only want independence because money. What I'm saying is it's a top-down movement created by right wing elites that figured out how to channel the public's discontent and nationalism, the same way Trump or the tories did.
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Oct 4, 2017 14:30
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Elman posted:It's called demagogy. "Populism" is a buzzword used to make all criticism of neoliberalism and capitalism look bad, regardless of its validity. Movement retains it's energy regardless of relative direction from the point of view of an observer.
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Oct 4, 2017 14:34
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You can call the Catalonian government a lot of things, the referendum illegal, you can accuse the Catalan people of being enchanted nationalism or fooled by promises of more money for Catalonia, you can do all that poo poo and yet none of it makes a lick of difference. Fact of the matter is that Catalonian people have been very clear in their demands to the Central Government, demands which the Central Government has seen fit to ignore for decades. And in the absence of dialogue, force enters the equation in mutual steps of escalation. But if a lord wishes for the loyalty of his men, he does have to offer them something in return. Calling the referendum illegitimate, while refusing to even loving talk to the Catalan Government, is nothing more than a fig leaf for armed intervention at this point.
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Oct 4, 2017 14:48
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Phlegmish posted:I am only refuting that it is the main factor behind Catalan separatism. If economic factors are enough to spawn a mass movement involving literally millions of people (out of a population of 7.5 million), why don't we see the same phenomenon in other countries? Where are the million-man marches in Flanders, Northern Italy, West Germany? I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment here and argue that it is precisely because Catalonia has become freeer and more prosperous in the decades since the re-establishment of democracy in Spain than it has ever been in the last several hundred years that an independence movement has been able to prosper. You can now live your daily life in Catalonia speaking Catalan, the use of Catalan is prevalent in education, local firms are required to display labels and signs in Catalan and get fined if they don't, and there is Catalan press and TV which is heavily subsidised by the regional government (which of course comes with strings attached). Catalan parties have been able to campaign for independence freely through the democratic system, they have been able to conduct a campaign yelling about how Spain is robbing them without repercussion, they have been instrumental in upholding two governments (of González and Aznar), the current Catalan government has been able to conduct an active PR campaign to get international support for its aspirations, and it is only organising a referendum in violation of the law that turned out to be a bridge too far for the government in Madrid. Of course there is still a lot wrong with how democracy in Spain works, the ley mordaza is still in effect, the Spanish nationalists in the PP have been pushing back at Catalan use in education, and maybe Madrid is taking too much money (I would be curious to know if they took any more than London though), the police actions of Sunday were inexcusable, but overall I'd say you could make a case that Spain is slowly but surely heading in the right direction and that plenty of people would love to be merely as oppressed as the people of Catalonia are.
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Oct 4, 2017 15:03
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