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lotus circle posted:See this is bullshit because as any retail store will tell you, Christmas goes from September 1st to December 25th. Fix'd
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Oct 4, 2017 19:02
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Im trying to sell someone on umineko and they said they don't like grimdark vns. What can I say to convince them?
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Oct 4, 2017 20:56
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Tired Moritz posted:Im trying to sell someone on umineko and they said they don't like grimdark vns. What can I say to convince them? Show them Goat-kun video.
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Oct 4, 2017 21:03
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Tired Moritz posted:Im trying to sell someone on umineko and they said they don't like grimdark vns. What can I say to convince them? Also it's not really grimdark.
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Oct 4, 2017 21:47
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MonsterEnvy posted:Also it's not really grimdark. No, but that term's been so overused that you can't pin down what someone means when they say they like/dislike it. Do they not like violence and gore? Because Umineko has that. It's been dialed down considerably compared to Higurashi, but it's still there. Is it edgy, melodramatic plots they don't like? If that's the case, then as long as they approach Umineko with the mindset that everything happens as foreshadowing or explanation, they should be fine. It gets heavy, but it never dwells on its own pathos. Do they not like stories with unhappy endings? Because this is a mystery where the end result is known by the end of the first episode: everyone dies. It's hard to say if it's something you'll be able to convince them towards or not.
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Oct 4, 2017 21:53
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Ask them to give examples of grimdark VNs because I'm curious
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Oct 4, 2017 23:06
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Tired Moritz posted:Im trying to sell someone on umineko and they said they don't like grimdark vns. What can I say to convince them?
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Oct 5, 2017 00:47
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 Children's puzzles. My one weakness. Going with It's possible based on the same logic that Zakrelo had.
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Oct 5, 2017 06:34
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 BGM: Stuffed Toy  "Yep, that's right. After all, there are two nights in every day." "Right! December 25th starts at 12:00 midnight. Midnight is during the night, so that's the first night. Then, morning comes, and when night falls again, it's still the same day until midnight!" "Exactly. And both of those nights are nights on Christmas Day." "Eheheheheh. Am I awesome? Am I awesome...?!"With a delighted smile, Aunt Eva patted my head vigorously.  "Wahahaha! Well done, Ange. I tried to make it a hard question, but you solved it like it was nothing." "Congratulations, Ange-sama. Here is a medal for getting the first question right."Genji-san held out a gold-colored medal. Grandfather smiled at me, urging me to take it. "Th, thank you!" "Keep up the pace. Well now, that is all for my puzzle. Head over there and ask whomever you choose for a quiz."It was a heavy, gold-colored medal. If I get a lot of these right, my pocket might burst. I'm gonna get so many that I can brag about it to everyone! After bowing to Grandfather, I hurried off with Aunt Eva to where everyone else was gathered.  This one is a little interesting because most people I've seen jump for the international date line solution, not what Kinzo actually had in mind. Either way, it's an easy one.  BGM: Steady Pace "Did I make it a bit too easy...?" "No. I think it was just right." "...Genji. Have I... managed to act the part of a good grandpa...?" "Of course." Young children have their own kind of cruelty. They think of kindness as something they will naturally receive. And because they think of kindness as only natural, they forget about it quickly. "...It is no different from gratitude to one's parents. It will probably take Ange-sama many years before she understands." "Do you think... that she will eventually remember that I was a fun grandpa?" "...Yes. I am certain of it." "..."Kinzo's expression grew slightly darker. Eventually, even Ange will get older, and she will probably hear how the public at large regards Ushiromiya Kinzo. The Ushiromiya Kinzo known by the public is completely different from the Kinzo who plays with his grandchildren. When she learns, will Ange remember the face of Kinzo the tyrant, known of by the world, or that gently smiling face?  "..." "There's no way around it. That's what children are." "Oh, it's you." "Children just eat up kindness, and it never remains in their memories. By the time 12 years have passed, she will surely learn what a bizarre eccentric Ushiromiya Kinzo was. Your smile is fated to be painted over by that and forgotten." "...Most probably. No matter how much I spoil her, my love will not be rewarded." "However, just as it takes a long time to remember what you owe your parents, Ange will surely remember someday. She will remember the smiles you showed her." "Hmph... Let her forget. One smile from her is the greatest parting gift I could ever take with me, when my time comes. This is... the essence of unrewarded love." "I guess grandfathers are always unrewarded." "Oh, but I have been rewarded. With Ange's smile just now to look back upon, I could happily pass on in my sleep tonight. Wahhahahahahahahaha..."With a lonely laugh, Kinzo spun around, setting his cape fluttering. This was all the love he could offer Ange as a grandfather. Part of him wanted to be remembered, but he knew he mustn't wish for that. That was... how unrewarded love worked. After looking at Kinzo's back, Beato stared at Ange's back again.   BGM: HANE I'm gonna challenge more and more people, get more and more medals for getting them right, and get a wonderful present to show everyone. Uncle Krauss and Aunt Natsuhi are over there. They're looking this way and smiling. I'm sure they've thought up some interesting puzzles. There's Uncle Hideyoshi, beckoning for me to come over. He's a fun uncle, so I'm sure he's thought up a fun question. Mom and Dad are across from him. They're waving at me, telling me to have lots of fun. Dad probably knows a lot of really hard questions. He might be tough. Over there is Aunt Rosa and Maria onee-chan. It looks like they're reading a quiz book together, searching for a problem.  She can be mean sometimes, so I'm sure her puzzle won't be a nice one. Beyond them are Battler onii-chan, George onii-chan, and Jessica onee-chan. Battler onii-chan is usually nice, but he sometimes says really mean things, and I think he likes seeing me get confused. I get the feeling... that he'll give me a really tough problem. Is there anyone who looks like they won't be mean? If I can, I'd like to start with some easy puzzles to warm me up. All the way over there are Genji-san and Doctor Nanjo. I don't think those two will be mean to me. And then there's Shannon and Kanon. Shannon knows about a lot of quizzes and fairy tales. I'm sure she'll give me something unique. Then, we have Gohda-san and Kumasawa-san, who are serving tea. Kumasawa-san might be tough. I kinda think she'll give me a really confusing problem. ...It looks like everyone might be pretty tough. Hmmmmm...  Uncle Hideyoshi is calling for me. What should I do? Should I go?  "Do you want to try Uncle Hideyoshi?" "Yeah. The order doesn't matter. After all, I'm gonna challenge everyone."I rolled up my sleeves and headed towards Uncle Hideyoshi.  "Wahahahahahaha, here you are. Mine's a tricky one, okay?" "I wonder what sort of question you'll give her. Don't make it too hard, okay?" "It's okay if it's hard. I'll solve it." "Oooh, looking pretty confident there...! Okay, here it comes!"After clearing his throat, Uncle Hideyoshi started telling his question...   "The boy who floated down a river in a peach?" "That's right. But you know, one day, an apple floated down that river." "An apple??" "Yep! And the next day, a butternut squash floated down it!" "I hate butternut squash." "And then, the next day, some cabbage floated down it! And the next day, a dill pickle did. And the next day, an eggplant floated by. And the day after that, a fig did!" "*giggle*. What a strange tale. Did a greengrocer live upstream, or something?" "Okay, here's the question. What floated down the river the next day?!" "Huh...?!" "I've got it. Do you get it, Ange-chan?" "I don't get it." "Then I'll give you a hint. There's a pattern to the things that float down the river. Can you guess what the pattern is?" "Wahahahaha! What a huge hint...!" Grapefruit Onions Lettuce Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Feb 7, 2018 |
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Oct 5, 2017 13:30
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A - Grapefruit  Considering the last riddle from a book they gave us was that bullshit cheese slicing one, they're really easing us into these
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Oct 5, 2017 13:33
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A - Grapefruit Easy peasy.
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Oct 5, 2017 13:51
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What a terrible solution that was. Just like with Layton puzzles, I suppose. Anyway, yeah, A obviously.
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Oct 5, 2017 14:00
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I'm gonna vote B - Onions because I like onions more than grapefruits or lettuce. I just like onions in general. Shut up.
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Oct 5, 2017 14:16
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Danaru posted:A - Grapefruit A-Grapefruit that one is way too easy.
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Oct 5, 2017 14:18
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A, I guess. I wonder how this works in japanese
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Oct 5, 2017 14:23
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Wow... I really don't know anymore. Regarding Kinzo, I mean. I heard a story of abuse and terror and defilement and this recoil from him- even now, I do not forgive him for what I was told he did- but... did he play with and care for his grandchildren at all when they were younger? The very idea is preposterous, from the image we have been given by the story... but the people creating that image is doing it from secondhand sources, and the only one who might know the truth was six at the time she knew it. How much of your life do you remember when you were six? Because I remember fragments- not quite as fragmentary as before then, but moments in time rather than a narrative, and a feeling, or perhaps a collection of feelings, the strongest part. And nothing much happened to me then, so I believe these are all correct and unmanipulated... but Ange lost everything. And a tragedy tends to overshadow the feeling of years in retrospect, doesn't it? And if we allow all of this... well then, did we ever really know the Ushiromiyas, really? If the only documents that survive them are legal in nature, and this is supplemented by a lot of hearsay after the fact, particularly by enemies or bored people with nothing to do... nobody tends to look good in that light, especially given the human habit of making stories more interesting by adding melodrama. Ange also has Maria's diary, it's true... but that has the same problems, being from a limited perspective of one person, and nine isn't that much older than six- who knows how Maria might have developed in the future, and might have added to her diary, what she might have revisited and renounced. Diaries are interesting in measuring the emotional growth of somebody within a certain timeframe, but for objective truth? Ehhh.... So I don't know. But I do know the answer to this riddle is A-Grapefruit. This is much easier, no time zone dickery required
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Oct 5, 2017 14:31
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A - Grapefruit!
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Oct 5, 2017 14:47
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Does this do the sounds continuing game in Japanese?
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Oct 5, 2017 15:02
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Wheeee A to G. A - Grapefruit. I presume this is either the same, or follows kana ordering. I'm not really sure if it'd be any harder if we were looking for something that started with 'ki'. As I think I noted earlier, this does seem like it's intended to remind Ange of the good parts of her family members that she's forgotten about. resurgam40 posted:Wow... I really don't know anymore. Regarding Kinzo, I mean. I heard a story of abuse and terror and defilement and this recoil from him- even now, I do not forgive him for what I was told he did- but... did he play with and care for his grandchildren at all when they were younger? The very idea is preposterous, from the image we have been given by the story... but the people creating that image is doing it from secondhand sources, and the only one who might know the truth was six at the time she knew it. How much of your life do you remember when you were six? Because I remember fragments- not quite as fragmentary as before then, but moments in time rather than a narrative, and a feeling, or perhaps a collection of feelings, the strongest part. And nothing much happened to me then, so I believe these are all correct and unmanipulated... but Ange lost everything. And a tragedy tends to overshadow the feeling of years in retrospect, doesn't it? Remember also that Maria's diary is also being interpreted through Ange's lens - a lens which we know was already tailored to believe the worst of Rosa. For my part, what I remember most of my grandfather, for example, is how he was in his last years - suffering from Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, barely moving at all, but those memories in no way mesh with what I hear of him from before that. So it's not much of a logical jump for me to see Kinzo in a similar (but inverted) light, especially since Ange seems to have only seen him once a year, if that. She also had far more years of people telling her what Kinzo had to have been like.
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Oct 5, 2017 15:19
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The answer is A - Green Pepper, wait... How did Hideyoshi know this would be multiple choice? 
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Oct 5, 2017 15:51
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[quote="resurgam40" post=""477076226"] If the only documents that survive them are legal in nature, and this is supplemented by a lot of hearsay after the fact, particularly by enemies or bored people with nothing to do... nobody tends to look good in that light, especially given the human habit of making stories more interesting by adding melodrama. [/quote] This is what happened to Edgar Allan Poe - for reasons that are still puzzling, Griswold became his literary executor despite a long and public history of his venomous dislike and started to paint Poe as a deranged, vicious madman and drunkard, a reputation that was kept in place for nearly a hundred years until people start to realize those memoirs are written by the . History is written by the victors, and Reputations written by the survivors.
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Oct 5, 2017 16:02
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Kinzo, you absolute fucker! furiously  ing this thread 
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Oct 5, 2017 16:03
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I'm not keen to forgive Kinzo for the absolutely monstrous things he's said and done before, so seeing how they give him reasonable insights is a bit ehhhh. I understand the call for nuanced perspectives on everybody, but maybe if it wasn't coming from Mr. Sexism McRapeypants, it would be come across better. I'm just taking things in stride however because this puzzle tournament is adorable. In regards to the puzzle, the alphabetical answer is grapefruit.
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Oct 5, 2017 18:05
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Kinda overkill at this point but I guess chock up another vote for A.Grapefruit.
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Oct 5, 2017 18:41
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People can make up their own minds about whether to forgive him, but I don't think it's really about forgiveness. It's about how people are made of many parts. Take the debate about Thomas Jefferson, for instance; he's well-known for owning slaves, despite speaking against the practice, and even having children with one of them, which is gross for a variety of reasons. That's pretty bad! Does that mean we can simply say "Jefferson was evil" and that's all there is to it? This country would probably be a worse place without him, should we ignore that also? It's tempting to just put people into boxes labelled "good" and "evil" and just deal with them in that way, but it's an injustice to their actual nature, which is generally more complex than that. Even Adolf Hitler mercy-killed his dog because he was afraid she would be tortured after he died. Does that buy him any forgiveness? For the loving holocaust? Hell no! But pretending that part of him didn't exist is ignoring an important facet of human nature.
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Oct 5, 2017 22:55
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Why are we invoking Godwin here? I mean, yes, you're right, there's little to be gained in pretending that those who commit evil deeds are inhuman and monstrous. The capacity for evil words and deeds is a part of the human condition. That said, these guys hardly need a defense. This isn't their trial. The whole sympathy for the devil angle is coming so late in the game that the welcome mat has already disintegrated. We've already wallowed in a poo poo load of pathos. It's time to start putting the sad toys away; it's time to roll up meta layers, not add more.
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Oct 5, 2017 23:13
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It's convenient to go right to Hitler because most people have trouble imagining anybody more monstrous. The point of introducing him this way here is to say: how much of what you know about a person is the truth? Can you really trust all these stories, and how much?
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Oct 5, 2017 23:35
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Then we get into the dangerous area of deciding to discredit the statements of his abused survivors. The tales of the gold and his business acumen are not really important; how he treated people in his power is.
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Oct 5, 2017 23:44
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:Then we get into the dangerous area of deciding to discredit the statements of his abused survivors. Statements made in what are essentially mystery novels authored by Yasu and Tohya, right?
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Oct 6, 2017 00:13
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resurgam40 posted:Wow... I really don't know anymore. Regarding Kinzo, I mean. I heard a story of abuse and terror and defilement and this recoil from him- even now, I do not forgive him for what I was told he did- but... did he play with and care for his grandchildren at all when they were younger? The very idea is preposterous, from the image we have been given by the story... but the people creating that image is doing it from secondhand sources, and the only one who might know the truth was six at the time she knew it. How much of your life do you remember when you were six? Because I remember fragments- not quite as fragmentary as before then, but moments in time rather than a narrative, and a feeling, or perhaps a collection of feelings, the strongest part. And nothing much happened to me then, so I believe these are all correct and unmanipulated... but Ange lost everything. And a tragedy tends to overshadow the feeling of years in retrospect, doesn't it? Because Kinzo died when Ange was 4, Ange barely even remembers him. Memories before the age of 4 are pretty rare to retain in adulthood for reasons we don't fully understand, there's a sort of childhood amnesia where you can remember them clearly when you're a kid but still older than 4, but they tend to slip away as you age. Some memories are retained, usually of shocking or surprising or traumatizing events, but there's no way Ange would clearly remember how Kinzo actually treated her when she visited. Basically Kinzo has done horrible horrible things and this doesn't excuse them, nothing excuses them, the people who he could have begged forgiveness from aren't alive anymore, and he's also dead so like, well poo poo. But just because Kinzo isn't a very sympathetic character doesn't mean he doesn't have the potential for complexity. Just like the cousins get along a lot better than the siblings, I think it's not improbable that Kinzo was a lot kinder to his grandchildren than to his children, and the increased distance can be a factor in that. Like, Rosa's a pretty awesome aunt but not a good mother, because she can't really cope with the responsibility of being the sole caretaker for Maria. Also since Kinzo was funding the orphanage since before the whole thing with baby Lion went down, I think it's pretty likely he has a soft spot for kids. Given that the servants tend to be in their late teens, the whole servant thing doesn't even really seem exploitative with one exception. Kinzo is still the character I hate most in Umineko. But he reminds me of my own Grandpa.
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Oct 6, 2017 00:25
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tiistai posted:Statements made in what are essentially mystery novels authored by Yasu and Tohya, right? Yasu came from somewhere, or more closely, someone. That fact alone is pretty bad. But yeah, I do agree with Witchcore that the point of this section isn't necessarily about forgiveness, it's about whether one can put aside the stories that other people made up about others in favor of the more nuanced, human perspective. I understand why it's Kinzo that we're getting the love-and-peace talk from, but yeah, there's still a pretty objectively bad thing he did that makes the heart of the message seem hollow. But still, actual Kinzo had human moments and contemplation too. Edit: Have we seen Yasu's toes yet? I'm surprised that the polydactylism trait hasn't come back up yet. EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Oct 6, 2017 |
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Oct 6, 2017 00:25
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Every puzzle has a solution! The answer is A- Grapefruit!
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Oct 6, 2017 00:30
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idonotlikepeas posted:People can make up their own minds about whether to forgive him, but I don't think it's really about forgiveness. It's about how people are made of many parts. Take the debate about Thomas Jefferson, for instance; he's well-known for owning slaves, despite speaking against the practice, and even having children with one of them, which is gross for a variety of reasons. That's pretty bad! Does that mean we can simply say "Jefferson was evil" and that's all there is to it? This country would probably be a worse place without him, should we ignore that also? It's tempting to just put people into boxes labelled "good" and "evil" and just deal with them in that way, but it's an injustice to their actual nature, which is generally more complex than that. Even Adolf Hitler mercy-killed his dog because he was afraid she would be tortured after he died. Does that buy him any forgiveness? For the loving holocaust? Hell no! But pretending that part of him didn't exist is ignoring an important facet of human nature. Even discounting the fact that this is fiction, Kinzo is like, super dead? And was also pretty darn miserable as a direct result of his own lovely actions? The narrative doesn't focus overly much on punishing Kinzo, but that's because his death is part of what sets off Yasu's own emotional collapse. He's dead! The old man is dead and even by the narrative conventions of the story nothing he's done can be changed! He was a horrific dad and a lovely husband and i absolutely do not like him as a person but him being given a side where he is not unrelentingly horrible at the time isn't justifying all the ways in which it's confirmed he's horrible. Like, Rosa being pretty cool sometimes doesn't make her a better mother, and Krauss regretting how he bullied his siblings doesn't undo the damage that caused, and Rudolf being a fun and loving dad doesn't disappear... any of that bullshit he also did. EDIT: And more close to home, Yasu being sympathetic and complex doesn't discount the fact they set up the circumstances that allowed the massacre to happen with the explicit intent of a massacre. All they found of Maria was her jaw, jesus cresus.
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Oct 6, 2017 00:31
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tiistai posted:Statements made in what are essentially mystery novels authored by Yasu and Tohya, right? tiistai posted:Statements made in what are essentially mystery novels authored by Yasu and Tohya, right? I don't buy that those allegations come from nothing. It's possible we find out it's all poo poo slinging, or possible that we learn nothing, but for now, I'm not on team Kinzo.
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Oct 6, 2017 00:40
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:I don't buy that those allegations come from nothing. It's possible we find out it's all poo poo slinging, or possible that we learn nothing, but for now, I'm not on team Kinzo. Oh, I'm not arguing they come from nothing. I'm arguing that Kinzo managed to not be a huge piece of poo poo in one or two aspects of his life, the rest of which consisted of him being a huge piece of poo poo.
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Oct 6, 2017 00:41
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I was editing my previous post, but found that I was having a lot of ideas come to mind that were going beyond the original post, so I'll just write them here. I wonder if the themes of having to determine the truth for yourself behind the stories that people made up will be what the ending is as well. Like Ange will have a choice to make. Choose to believe the romantic story that Battler eventually discovered the truth behind everything, probably even making up with Yasu, and had that final comfort before the bomb blast occurred. (There in lies even the glimmer of magical whimsy, that maybe Battler is still alive somewhere on Rokkenjima). Or accept the stories told by other people that he most definitely died, and probably with no idea why.
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Oct 6, 2017 00:56
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PetraCore posted:Even discounting the fact that this is fiction, Kinzo is like, super dead? And was also pretty darn miserable as a direct result of his own lovely actions? The narrative doesn't focus overly much on punishing Kinzo, but that's because his death is part of what sets off Yasu's own emotional collapse. He's dead! The old man is dead and even by the narrative conventions of the story nothing he's done can be changed! He was a horrific dad and a lovely husband and i absolutely do not like him as a person but him being given a side where he is not unrelentingly horrible at the time isn't justifying all the ways in which it's confirmed he's horrible. Like, Rosa being pretty cool sometimes doesn't make her a better mother, and Krauss regretting how he bullied his siblings doesn't undo the damage that caused, and Rudolf being a fun and loving dad doesn't disappear... any of that bullshit he also did. Yeah, it's a common theme across the characters. Even the shittiest of them has something else going on, and even the best of them has at least one thing they're a dingus about. Kinzo is not in any way a good person; all the author is doing is challenging us about the picture of him we'd already established. EagerSleeper posted:But yeah, I do agree with Witchcore that the point of this section isn't necessarily about forgiveness, it's about whether one can put aside the stories that other people made up about others in favor of the more nuanced, human perspective. Nah, I'm not Witchcore, I'm one of the other ones.
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Oct 6, 2017 01:00
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idonotlikepeas posted:Nah, I'm not Witchcore, I'm one of the other ones. I apologize for the mistake. I'm kinda sleep-deprived atm.
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Oct 6, 2017 01:10
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EagerSleeper posted:I apologize for the mistake. I'm kinda sleep-deprived atm. It's cool; no shame in being mistaken for her.
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Oct 6, 2017 01:31
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Yeah, but having one or two good to okay facets doesn't undo, neutralize, or otherwise ameliorate being a huge piece of poo poo. This rosy portrait is a nice fantasy, but... Choosing what you believe can mean choosing to overlook ugly truths, and the world is too full of that already. Wasn't there some standup sketch about doing charity not cancelling out murdering folks? Too wiped to dig it up.
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Oct 6, 2017 01:44
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