|
Crazycryodude posted:Them recognizing everything rimward of the Belt as in the Martian sphere of influence
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 11:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 17:26 |
|
|
I d ask for an exploration ship or two, as those ships are recently build and would give us a limited look into earth tech levels. Overall really good proposal Bwengun.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 11:55
|
|
|
 Okay so i'm going to try distill the discussion before things get too out of hand. Firstly there are many points people agree on with relatively minor differences in details. It seems to me the major differrences are whether Mars allows a Terran colony in Ranginui and/or what conditions it tries to attach in return for that concession. First up shared overlaps between most of the various proposals: - Demand Sol JP data and Astronomical data on Nova Sol. - Sharing of new ruins and alien contacts. Future Xenology co-operation. - Terran ownership of Noval Sol is allowable in the same manner as Mars claims Ranginui. - Sol JP ownership stays as is and Terra stands down its fleets moving outsystem. Points of difference: The degree of allowable Terran claims in Ranginui. - No terran presence allowable. - Exploration only (no mining). - Civilian only (mining allowable on a single body). - Military with limits i.e. limited lease period, limited military tonnage. - Mil/Com access allowed but with a reciprocal Martian lease on a body in Nova Sol. -Terran ownership of the Nova Sol - Ranginui JP ------------------------------------ After speaking with the Martian diplomatic corps the first is unfortunately dismissed. They advise Terra has been adamant it will not allow Mars to lock it out of Ranginui and given the prize on display that is somewhat understandable. It is decided to aim for no Terran presence in Ranganui but be prepared to back down somewhat in exchange for other concessions elsewhere. Rapid discussions ensue with the Terran ambassador, he is somewhat taken aback by the ferocity of the Martian response and the belligerence of their demands but dutifully passes them on to his superiors. A response is not long in coming, after some further back and forth it boils down to the following. ------------------------------------ Terran response:
The following points are largely agreed upon by both sides without serious revision.
The Federal Diplomatic corps advises that it is unlikely you will receive much better terms than these at this point. Terra seems confident of its ability to prevail in any non-MAD violent confrontation and due to the depleted state of the Martian fleet and the vastly superior number of Terran warships they may very well be correct. Terra has at least thirty capital ships (Battleships and Battlecruisers) and a dozen fleet carriers to Mars's thirteen remaining capital ships and six fleet carriers. It is believed that Terran cruisers are roughly equal in number to Martian and average slightly smaller tonnage while they have a very large destroyer contingent with nearly three times as many as Mars. The Terra-Luna fixed fortifications are also enormous which will probably allow Terra to deploy more of their ships away without compromising their home defense. What say you goons? Its time for a vote. Further tweaks to the exact agreement can be made after the fact but this is the big one. 1) Broadly accept the Terran proposal (please specify 1A or 1B). - 1A - Accept with Terran tonnage limits and TNE tax but demilitarised Nova Sol -> Ranginui terminus. - 1B - Accept without tonnage limits and tax but be allowed to fortify Ranginui terminus. 2) Reject Terran proposals, this will likely lead to further escalation (please specify 2A or 2B). - 2A - Reject out of hand. - 2B - Reject but offer further terms beneficial to Mars. Option 1 would be your go-to if you feel the agreement is somewhat reasonable but needs tweaking (i.e. higher taxes, material concessions from Terra etc) while Option 2 is more on the end of "get hosed Terra." Saros fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Oct 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 12:22
|
|
|
Voting 1C Edit changed my vote to 1C Tythas fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Oct 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 12:31
|
|
|
This looks broadly workable. Raking it through with a fine toothed comb now
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 12:46
|
|
|
Hard decision there. Limiting the amount they can have in the system at any one time limits their ability to pearl harbour us. But at the same time. Allowing them to jump in with a battlefleet at any time without them suffering at the JP is potentially even worse. Saros, are they saying they will only using the Nova Sol-Rangi JP and not the Sol-Rangi JP?
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 12:47
|
|
|
Tythas posted:Voting 1A I'd also like a clarification on what UT understands under "a presence" under this proposal.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 12:54
|
|
|
This agreement seems very one sided, considering what we believed the principles laid down in the original jump point division agreement were. Therefore I would go with what is traditionally done in inequitable agreements where one party is in a temporary position of strength, 1A but violence as soon as we believe we are in the position of strength (once new fleet is coming together?).
Incy fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Oct 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:01
|
|
|
2A Live free or die.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:03
|
|
|
A1 20 Mil is large, sure, but we can still build stations with good sensors and long range missiles if we want. Or, as was stated, start fortifying the JP in 2-3 years and start the war on our terms not theirs.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:11
|
|
|
BwenGun posted:Saros, are they saying they will only using the Nova Sol-Rangi JP and not the Sol-Rangi JP? Sol-Ranginui JP will be under Martian control and they will only be able to transit with your permission. Re: the 20m km zone that is well within missile range and about 1/3 the distance Mercury orbits the sun from so is unlikely to catch any bodies in its radius.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:13
|
|
|
In the hopes of avoiding a war we cannot win at this time, 1C. Also, make drat sure whatever infrastructure they put down in Ranganui isn't on Ranganui I. That planet is potentially a EDIT: Since we found out that was what it was just before this treaty was implemented, we can say we knew about it before that whole "new" discovery thing happened in the treaty. Inglonias fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Oct 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:16
|
|
|
nothing to seehere posted:20 Mil is large
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:16
|
|
|
Also, I forgot to mention this:Saros posted:...A joint Xenology body will be created. All new Xenoarcheological discoveries must be reported to this body within three months of discovery. Discovery of any alien life must be reported as soon as practicable (Mars believes the terrans have not noticed the changes in exact wording of the Xenology part of the text)... Didn't notice my rear end. The first thing any competent negotiator would do with a new proposed set of terms is run a diff on whatever they got against the last iteration of the treaty. They have their own ruins in Nova Sol. They may not be as extensive as the ones in Ranganui (or else they wouldn't be willing to go to war over that system), but we have to assume they exist, given how common these drat things seem to be. We should ask the Facility about any Collaboration presence in that system as soon as we give it something to go on, since the jump graph has been hosed with by alien beings and we can't use it to confirm or deny which system in its maps is which. Hell, ask the Facility for ANY maps of Collaboration facilities we can use. Even if we get only the star types and planetary layouts of the systems that their stuff is present in, we can use that to confirm whether alien ruins are present in a new system without scanning for it, allowing us to... HAPPEN to get an archeological team to them before we HAPPEN to stumble upon those ruins and have to announce their existence. Inglonias fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Oct 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:19
|
|
|
Get hosed Terra - complete joke they demand a colony but will not reciprocate. Escalate to Defcon 2, set a redline and prepare to open fire.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:26
|
|
|
Saros posted:Sol-Ranginui JP will be under Martian control and they will only be able to transit with your permission. Thanks Saros. Well that will slow them down compared to us when it comes to the exploitation of the ruins and the colonization process. Inglonias posted:Also, I forgot to mention this: Well... it could also be a Martian addition if we're trying to keep Facility hush hush.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:27
|
|
|
Inglonias posted:Hell, ask the Facility for ANY nearby Collaboration maps we can use. Even if we get only the star types and planetary layouts, we can use that to confirm whether alien ruins are present in a new system without scanning for it, allowing us to... HAPPEN to get an archeological team to them before we HAPPEN to stumble upon those ruins and have to announce their existence. "Actually, I think you'll find we haven't announced any new finds for the duration of this treaty as the alien AI we were conversing with immediately before signing gave us maps of all the civilization it was aware of, and therefore none of the ruins were 'new' discoveries post execution." I would want to watch that conference.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:28
|
|
|
1A Yes, they can just keep a fleet on the far side of the JP, but without a fleet base in Ranginui, that fleet would eat up its deployment time and maintenance costs, while our ships are hanging out in comfort at our fleet base with maintenance stations. And any fleet at the Nova Sol -- Ranginui jump point is tied up some distance from any action in Sol.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:29
|
|
|
Inglonias posted:Also, I forgot to mention this: Thats certainly possible but the Martian team assigned to negotiate Xenology specific provisions did their very best to be complete asses about everything and bumble about and confuse the Terrans as much as possible to hide this in a mass of piddly procedural stuff.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:32
|
|
|
BwenGun posted:Well... it could also be a Martian addition if we're trying to keep Facility hush hush. That is the assumption I'm working on, and the fact that Saros said Saros posted:(Mars believes the terrans have not noticed the changes in exact wording of the Xenology part of the text). leads me to believe that the Terrans have SEEN the document. Again, we have to assume that they're competent. They HAVE to know this means we know about other stuff, or else we'd demand to know about any other ruins they have. Even if they don't have other ruins, assuming they do can only help us (except in the case where we don't start a war we could totally win because we think they have a superlaser, and they don't actually have one.) EDIT: Saros posted:Thats certainly possible but the Martian team assigned to negotiate Xenology specific provisions did their very best to be complete asses about everything and bumble about and confuse the Terrans as much as possible to hide this in a mass of piddly procedural stuff. Never tell your players that they're barking up the wrong tree unless it causes a game over, Saros.  My point still stands. If we assume the worst, we won't be unpleasantly surprised. If the Facility tells us that it can't find poo poo in Nova Sol, I will drop this, but until it does I'm working off of this assumption. Inglonias fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Oct 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:33
|
|
|
2A These bastards want a war so bad? We'll give them a war to remember!
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:39
|
|
|
On the one hand I'd like to see how a conflict would shake out, but on the other I'm more interested in what we can find outside of Sol. 1A
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:47
|
|
|
Tythas posted:Voting 1A Sure why not. e: 1A like this plus Hessi's extended demilitarization. 1C because it's much better than war right now. POOL IS CLOSED fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Oct 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:47
|
|
|
A1, with the added demand that UTs side of the Ranganui-Sol Nova JP cannot be fortified either, with ample inspectors on both sides
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:51
|
|
|
Hessi posted:A1, with the added demand that UTs side of the Ranganui-Sol Nova JP cannot be fortified either, with ample inspectors on both sides That's a good demand.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 13:56
|
|
|
One request, when endorsing a vote please make that clear that is your vote and bold somewhere. Often there will be 40-50+ votes on a topic and when i'm counting them up I can miss ones that are unclear.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 14:10
|
|
|
1A Let's get this finished so we can start poking giant alien death planets with sticks.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 14:17
|
|
|
Edit:1C, TheWetFish. Stop being good at your jobs guys, making me change my vote! Tactical_Torpedo fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Oct 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 14:29
|
|
|
2B Why are people going with a 1A/B option if they don't want to accept the Terran terms?
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 14:37
|
|
|
CoffeeQaddaffi posted:Why are people going with a 1A/B option if they don't want to accept the Terran terms? Because Saros has said (1) represents continued negotiations along the lines of their compromise proposal, while (2) indicates a flat rejection of that line of negotiation.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 14:41
|
|
|
Out of curiosity, when they're agreeing that we would exclusively own future "jump links" out of Ragni, is it that we own the points themselves, or the systems those points link to? Wouldn't want to end up in this situation again when UT has ~*mysteriously*~ ended up having ships in another system that we would have logical claim to but not air-tight, undisputable ink on the page spelling it out.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 14:48
|
|
|
^ ^ ^ ^ Yeah, that needs to be cleared up. Also what happens if two jump points lead to the same system? Also I am not sure about this. On one hand, the treaty is still un-even and not in our advantage. On the other, I don't want to help push the thread into a MAD game over. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 14:54
|
|
|
Option 1...B / C ?
OK, a few points to cover! Any treaty should always be crafted in the mindset that the other side may break it at any time. Jump points provide choke points of military advantage and we absolutely cannot give that up. Throwing missiles at 20Mkm is in no way meaningfully comparable to jump shock advantage. It's the distinction between a shin high fence and a castle. We are fortifying the jump points on our side, not negotiable. United Terra can beat us in a fight and they get some concessions, for now. Waived are the provisions for reporting ruins found, unarmed expeditions into each others territory nor for us surveying their exclusive Nova Sol territory. UT get both mining and military within Ranganui but not to unreasonable levels nor forever. Our superior quality & ability to practically reinforce from Sol will always give us a meaningful advantage but we won't be able to clown them (easily) either. We are able to influence the time frames as this is tied to the ruins remaining not dug up and also us retaining control of how quickly they are dug up. I think this staves off a disadvantageous immediate war, in exchange for slightly strengthening UT and strongly strengthening us, both in the immediate and longer terms Edit: Minor spelling & grammer Edit2: "United Terra will be allowed a minimum of 40K tons of space-based tonnage" to prevent low tonnage abuse Edit3: Lowered mining tax from 50% to 30% TheWetFish fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Oct 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 15:08
|
|
|
Oh gently caress these guys. No, they don't get to come into our territory and and starting making demands while not even bothering to give us survey data of New Sol? gently caress. Them. There's something real good in their system, and this is just blatant extortion to try and get even more good poo poo. I don't actually want a war yet, but I'll drat well fight one if they push us. 2B E: Changed to 1C Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Oct 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 15:27
|
|
|
If we need to demilitarize our side of the JP they will sure as gently caress have to do it on theirs too! Also taxes should be higher then 10% more like 30%. Any presence will be limited by time. 10-20 years. At most. Other then that .. maybe I will vote for this suggestion.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 15:30
|
|
|
2B Just who the hell do they think we are. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 15:43
|
|
|
This "treaty" is 110% pure-strain bullying. They're altering the terms of their previous treaty before the ink is even dry and aren't even slightly willing to give up any material concessions to sweeten the deal. This is Putin saying "you are my vassal, now be a good boy and bend over."
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 15:47
|
|
|
1A and move on with the plot. Getting bogged down in things that we can't really reflect in the game slows poo poo down.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 15:47
|
|
|
1A
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 15:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 17:26 |
|
|
Voting 1A because the power of humanity with a common threat has no equal. Let's get to that storyline.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2017 15:52
|
|