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https://twitter.com/JStein_Vox/status/916420535692742656
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Oct 6, 2017 22:59
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It's unsettling how much this type of rhetoric appeals to a lot of Americans. gently caress bipartisanship forever.
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Oct 6, 2017 23:30
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Majorian posted:It's unsettling how much this type of rhetoric appeals to a lot of Americans. gently caress bipartisanship forever. there is no reason the center left and far left can't reach across the aisle
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Oct 6, 2017 23:36
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Majorian posted:It's unsettling how much this type of rhetoric appeals to a lot of Americans. gently caress bipartisanship forever. Did you say bipartisanship? https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/916425370974515200 Yeah let's make David Duke 2.0 an icon because he got assblasted.
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Oct 6, 2017 23:36
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Dead Reckoning posted:-Decrease poverty But that wouldn't solve 100% of the problem and therefore, by gun idiot logic, is the same as doing nothing.
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Oct 6, 2017 23:38
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Dead Reckoning posted:He had a semi automatic rifle with him, but it turns out that the rifle you would use for deer or elk is entirely sufficient for killing humans when you put a lot of thought into your murder spree. You're treating this as a binary thing, ie: "shooter kills a lot of people" vs. "shooter doesn't kill a lot of people/anyone." But it's not. A mass killer not being able to kill as many people, due to a limited gamut of weapons at his disposal, is a better outcome.
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Oct 6, 2017 23:38
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Majorian posted:You're treating this as a binary thing, ie: "shooter kills a lot of people" vs. "shooter doesn't kill a lot of people/anyone." But it's not. A mass killer not being able to kill as many people, due to a limited gamut of weapons at his disposal, is a better outcome. But you see some assholes with bolt action rifles under some circumstances were able to kill as many people as other assholes with semi-automatic rifles in other circumstances and therefore the two are exactly the same.
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Oct 6, 2017 23:42
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Dead Reckoning posted:An M-1 carbine is a semiautomatic rifle, IDK how else you want to define that. My comment was specifically in response to the idea that outlawing semiautomatic rifles but allowing "hunting guns" would prevent deadly mass shootings. Which it would not.
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Oct 6, 2017 23:55
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Guys I'm just asking questions. Questions like how banning one of the most widely used military rifles in history from civilian use could help make mass shootings less bloody because I just don't see a way. You see, the poster I was replying to thought the M-1 was a bolt action rifle when it's really semi-automatic and therefore all of his possible points are wrong and I don't have to engage with his post in any way.
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Oct 7, 2017 00:00
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Ogmius815 posted:But that wouldn't solve 100% of the problem and therefore, by gun idiot logic, is the same as doing nothing. I used to think that there could be some segment of firearm hobbyists that would be amenable to a compromise of looser firearm regulation but with a lot more spending to ameliorate the social causes of firearm violence. It obviously wouldn't zero out firearm deaths but maybe at least take a bite out of it. Unfortunately, a venn diagram of nutty gun owners and "gently caress you, got mine" types nearly overlap. There is no negotiating. It's FYGM all the way down. Maybe this approach could've worked 30 years ago but the issue is wholly politicized and guns are just another pillar in the right's culture war.
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Oct 7, 2017 00:02
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Bueno Papi posted:I used to think that there could be some segment of firearm hobbyists that would be amenable to a compromise of looser firearm regulation but with a lot more spending to ameliorate the social causes of firearm violence. It obviously wouldn't zero out firearm deaths but maybe at least take a bite out of it. Unfortunately, a venn diagram of nutty gun owners and "gently caress you, got mine" types nearly overlap. There is no negotiating. It's FYGM all the way down. Maybe this approach could've worked 30 years ago but the issue is wholly politicized and guns are just another pillar in the right's culture war. There's people in this very thread who've said they're gun owners and are in full support of more regulations, buybacks, different bans or whatever else, myself included.
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Oct 7, 2017 00:34
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Dead Reckoning posted:An M-1 carbine is a semiautomatic rifle, IDK how else you want to define that. My comment was specifically in response to the idea that outlawing semiautomatic rifles but allowing "hunting guns" would prevent deadly mass shootings. Which it would not. "Hunting guns" don't need to be semi-auto. Bolt or break action only. No magazines internal or external. No magazine ports built into the guns even if they are "filled" with a "single shot" "mag". There, fixed it for you.
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Oct 7, 2017 00:45
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Yardbomb posted:There's people in this very thread who've said they're gun owners and are in full support of more regulations, buybacks, different bans or whatever else, myself included. Cool. So am I. Would you like me to amend the venn diagram from near overlap to less than near overlap?
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Oct 7, 2017 00:59
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Dead Reckoning posted:They're only banned from advocacy, and hampered the unwillingness of a Republican congress to appropriate money for research with a long history of being politically motivated. Insisting that the advocacy ban keeps them from doing important research is akin to the governors of states which refused medicaid expansion complaining that Obamacare failed their constituents. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Please tell me you didn't actually expect anyone to buy this bullshit. They are not banned from studying, but as YOU well know, anytime anybody in the CDC TRIES to, Congress just to happens to cut the funding for the CDC enough for just that study. The NRA/GOP has made ANY study into gun violence and solutions academic, political, and employment poison for researchers. Crain posted:"Hunting guns" don't need to be semi-auto. Yup! Bolt and Pump action will do just fine. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Oct 7, 2017 |
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Oct 7, 2017 01:00
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Office Pig posted:Did you say bipartisanship? He can't even say he's David Duke without the baggage any more, because he's making GBS threads in one.
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Oct 7, 2017 01:00
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Just push Scalise in a hole and start throwing the dirt on him please.
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Oct 7, 2017 01:10
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Dead Reckoning posted:An M-1 carbine is a semiautomatic rifle, IDK how else you want to define that. My comment was specifically in response to the idea that outlawing semiautomatic rifles but allowing "hunting guns" would prevent deadly mass shootings. Which it would not. It's a semi-automatic carbine, and while there is some gray area as to the exact definition of "carbine" and whether they are fully distinct from "rifle" because modern carbines are just short rifles the M1 is an oldschool actual no-poo poo carbine with a shortened underpowered round from back when the distinction between the two was clear. Moreover you were replying to someone saying "imagine if he had an AR15" so trying to pull off some sleazy "but he had a semi auto rifle" like no one was going to check and notice it wasn't anything remotely comparable to an AR15 is loving bullshit even if you want to lawyer your way into the M1 Carbine technically meeting the definition of "semiautomatic rifle". That one talented and trained marksman might have been able to pull one extremely successful sniper-style mass shooting in the last 50 years is not a counterargument to the fact any jackass with enough familiarization to know which way the bullets go in can spray a crowd and get the same effect with an AR15 or similar.
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Oct 7, 2017 01:18
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CommieGIR posted:AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I brought it up intentionally because he gives the same answer every time, and people correct him every time, but he's a disingenuous fuckhead idiot so he never learns anything or corrects himself.
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Oct 7, 2017 01:19
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CommieGIR posted:AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Personally I say no pump for rifles. Single shot only, be that with a bolt, break, rolling block, etc action. Shotguns I'll concede for duck hunting. But still no semi-auto, and only up to a small number of shells in a hard capped tube magazine that cannot be extended with external additions. When I say hard capped I mean the tube is only long enough for the shells + spring mechanism and not reduced by like, a dowel or stick that could be removed.
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Oct 7, 2017 01:34
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Jarmak posted:It's a semi-automatic carbine, and while there is some gray area as to the exact definition of "carbine" and whether they are fully distinct from "rifle" because modern carbines are just short rifles the M1 is an oldschool actual no-poo poo carbine with a shortened underpowered round from back when the distinction between the two was clear. Moreover you were replying to someone saying "imagine if he had an AR15" so trying to pull off some sleazy "but he had a semi auto rifle" like no one was going to check and notice it wasn't anything remotely comparable to an AR15 is loving bullshit even if you want to lawyer your way into the M1 Carbine technically meeting the definition of "semiautomatic rifle". Neurolimal posted:There's also the whole fact that bolt-action guns would probably be the worst guns for a killing spree unless you made some hilarious rude goldberg reloading device. You felt compelled to hold forth on the unsuitability of the M-1 carbine as a man stoppah, (despite there likely being tens if not hundreds of thousands of Nazis, Japanese, Koreans and Vietnamese who would disagree,) and get in some sort of pedantic argument about whether a carbine "counts" even though the word has no particular bearing on the type of ammunition fired and simply means a rifled, shoulder fired long gun with a barrel shorter than a full sized rifle or musket (depending on time period) because apparently you realized that the simple virtue of being semi automatic is not what determines whether a weapon can be put to deadly effect against helpless people which was my point the entire time. EDIT: and in what way exactly is the .30 carbine under-powered? It has more energy at the muzzle than a .357 magnum. *inhales* As an aside, "Sharpshooter" is one of three levels of marksmanship recognition in the Marine Corps, above "Marksman" but below "Expert", and as someone who has received an "Expert" ribbon, it is not a supernatural Annie Oakley-esqe achievement of marksmanship but can generally be gained with a bit of practice. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Oct 7, 2017 |
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Oct 7, 2017 02:16
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https://twitter.com/GEsfandiari/status/916379533414223872
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Oct 7, 2017 02:16
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Dead Reckoning posted:This whole thing started when Neurolimal said  
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Oct 7, 2017 02:33
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Which way do you want me to go with this: that it became necessary to switch the conversation from "hunting bolt action rifles vs semi auto" to "AR-15 vs M-1" and drop the entire exchange up to that point into the memory hole in order to get away from the fact that Neurolimal's assertion was wrong, or that the "good thing he didn't have access to an AR-15!" line is both a meaningless counterfactual and also hilarious because AR-15s started being sold commercially two years before that and he very easily could have got one?
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Oct 7, 2017 03:07
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If he had a bolt action, he'd have killed maybe 3-4. Nah, he had a bump-stock equipped AR-15. Dead Reckoning posted:Which way do you want me to go with this: that it became necessary to switch the conversation from "hunting bolt action rifles vs semi auto" to "AR-15 vs M-1" and drop the entire exchange up to that point into the memory hole in order to get away from the fact that Neurolimal's assertion was wrong, or that the "good thing he didn't have access to an AR-15!" line is both a meaningless counterfactual and also hilarious because AR-15s started being sold commercially two years before that and he very easily could have got one? Um, the point being maybe people shouldn't have access to them? Still waiting for your rebuttal to the political consequences to any CDC studies.
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Oct 7, 2017 03:13
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Jarmak posted:It's a semi-automatic carbine, and while there is some gray area as to the exact definition of "carbine" and whether they are fully distinct from "rifle" because modern carbines are just short rifles the M1 is an oldschool actual no-poo poo carbine with a shortened underpowered round from back when the distinction between the two was clear. Moreover you were replying to someone saying "imagine if he had an AR15" so trying to pull off some sleazy "but he had a semi auto rifle" like no one was going to check and notice it wasn't anything remotely comparable to an AR15 is loving bullshit even if you want to lawyer your way into the M1 Carbine technically meeting the definition of "semiautomatic rifle". I can't believe I'm saying this but thank you, Jarmak.
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Oct 7, 2017 03:46
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Dead Reckoning posted:... As it was in the days of our ancestors, it will be a daunting task, requiring the efforts of many people, but bringing down one of those mammoths will keep the village fed for a very long time.
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Oct 7, 2017 03:46
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Dead Reckoning posted:EDIT: and in what way exactly is the .30 carbine under-powered? It has more energy at the muzzle than a .357 magnum. The .30 carbine being underpowered issues stemmed from Korean war soldiers claiming they wouldn't penetrate their (Chinese/NK) winter clothing. Party Plane Jones fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Oct 7, 2017 |
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Oct 7, 2017 03:50
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Dead Reckoning posted:Are you sure about that? Breivik went an hour and 12 minutes from the first shots being fired on Utøya to being apprehended by police. This is one of the most disingenuous arguments I've seen The police LEAs in the US routinely train on how to handle an active shooter situation since we are the only first world nation with a mass shooting problem. Own up to the fact that you are selfish enough to believe that your toys and hobby are more important than the lives of 58 people and the health of 500+ others.
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Oct 7, 2017 04:48
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Party Plane Jones posted:The .30 carbine being underpowered issues stemmed from Korean war soldiers claiming they wouldn't penetrate their (Chinese/NK) winter clothing. It's literally a short round, it's got a 1.8k FPS muzzle velocity compared to 2.8k-3.3k for the AR15 depending on barrel length/ammo. Max effective range for an M1 carbine is 100-250m depending on who you ask, an AR15 is 600m .
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Oct 7, 2017 05:24
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ColonelDimak posted:This is one of the most disingenuous arguments I've seen The police LEAs in the US routinely train on how to handle an active shooter situation since we are the only first world nation with a mass shooting problem. Always remember, too, that they're anti-gun-control folks are anti-gun-control period, most of the time. They think any legislation or action is just step one of a complete and total ban. They won't meet you in the middle; they won't meet you anywhere. The reality is they would still be able to get their toys even if you have: - 50 state licensure and registration for guns and owners - Mandatory training and certification - Recording and monitoring ammunition purchases - Melting down any unlicensed and unregistered guns - Manufacturing restrictions that makes conversion to automatic firing impossible Any ONE of these would help. Their arguments against are all complete perfect-as-the-enemy-of-the-good bullshit. They will always try to convince everyone that anything you do will be imperfect so its not worth doing when even if it prevents one mass shooting it's worth it, or makes one shooting less horrible, since those are real people with real lives who will be preserved.
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Oct 7, 2017 06:16
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Huzanko posted:Always remember, too, that they're anti-gun-control folks are anti-gun-control period, most of the time. They think any legislation or action is just step one of a complete and total ban. They won't meet you in the middle; they won't meet you anywhere. But yeah, I'm probably a minority. And my 2nd amendment stance continues to soften over time the more I read posts from Dead Reckoning et al, so keep up the good work DR!
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Oct 7, 2017 06:34
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Here in Mass you take a class to get your firearms ID card. I'd be more than willing to give up my semi autos. Hunting wise nothing I can't get done with a pump or a bolt.
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Oct 7, 2017 07:11
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ColonelDimak posted:This is one of the most disingenuous arguments I've seen "Disingenuous Arguments" is DR's actual real life middle name. I'm still going to point out that DR bold facedly argued that California couldn't have single payer because Vermont couldn't do it and California having an economy the size of France's doesn't matter when it comes to drug price negotiations. The only thing to really discuss when DR is involved is if he's just being an intellectually dishonest little poo poo or if he really believes all of the dumb poo poo he spews all day every day. I'm leaning toward the former but I could be persuaded.
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Oct 7, 2017 07:14
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Ogmius815 posted:But that wouldn't solve 100% of the problem and therefore, by gun idiot logic, is the same as doing nothing. And it's not that I don't think the various idiotic gun control proposals ITT wouldn't solve everything, I think they wouldn't do anything. Just pretend I posted that Brady score vs Homicide Rate chart again. CommieGIR posted:If he had a bolt action, he'd have killed maybe 3-4. ColonelDimak posted:This is one of the most disingenuous arguments I've seen The police LEAs in the US routinely train on how to handle an active shooter situation since we are the only first world nation with a mass shooting problem. Huzanko posted:.The reality is they would still be able to get their toys even if you have: Oh, and let me just take a sec here to address the half a dozen posters claiming I'm selfish for not immediately forfeiting my rights for your knee jerk response to a tragedy: it's a stupid, shallow argument that you wouldn't entertain if someone was making it to you. If someone told you they were in favor of increased government surveillance powers after 9/11 because "people who aren't doing anything wrong have nothing to hide, and it might prevent this from happening again", would you take them seriously?
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Oct 7, 2017 07:43
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Dead Reckoning posted:l Your views on who deserves their rights respected are worthless and not worthy of consideration, since you believe black people forfeit their right to life for being in proximity to a police officer.
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Oct 7, 2017 07:47
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:"Disingenuous Arguments" is DR's actual real life middle name. The size of California's economy does not solve the issues Vermont faced with cost controls because it has a commensurately larger population to support. There are some avenues to address the drug pricing issue that might be possible in a world where single payer was achievable, but they all require breaking promises that pro single payer advocates have made.
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Oct 7, 2017 07:55
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How dare you demand that I give up the freedom to murder anyone at any time in order to live in a society where I am not randomly murdered by another person at any time! No I don't know what "social contract" means, why do you ask?
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Oct 7, 2017 08:16
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ColonelDimak posted:This is one of the most disingenuous arguments I've seen The police LEAs in the US routinely train on how to handle an active shooter situation since we are the only first world nation with a mass shooting problem. Let's also remember that Utøya is an island in the middle of nowhere.
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Oct 7, 2017 08:28
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Dead Reckoning posted:Hunting has never been a protected right at the federal level. There is also the fact that most gun owners don't trust the people pushing for gun control to make the determination about which guns are and aren't "suitable" for hunting. Just plotting a Brady score vs raw homicide rate doesn't prove what you think it does. You have to compare the change in homicide rates before and after a law (ideally to a control if available). Blindly comparing urban and rural areas also doesn't tell you much, of course urban areas have a higher per capita crime rate; "you're more likely to be murdered in California than in Idaho" tells you more about the percentage of the population that lives in dense urban areas in California compared to Idaho than it does about the effect of policy differences between those states. But you're a pretty smart guy so I suspect you know this already and are either hoping your audience doesn't or you're just rationalizing your way to the conclusion you want to reach. Turns out when you review 64 years of academic studies on the subject both within the United States and internationally, gun control done right turns out to be effective and you can also determine which laws work and which are useless or counterproductive. It's long but a good read. In general the most effective laws had a combination of safety training and storage regulations, background checks (although this heavily depended on the quality of the criminal background, mental health information, restraining orders, etc maintained by the government), licensing, and banning full auto weapons. poo poo like the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban didn't work at all. And repealing existing licensing laws was always bad.
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Oct 7, 2017 10:49
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Neeksy posted:How dare you demand that I give up the freedom to murder anyone at any time in order to live in a society where I am not randomly murdered by another person at any time! Access to guns are part of America's social contract.
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Oct 7, 2017 14:09
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