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Wasabi the J posted:I think it's a complicated issue and it is going to require introspection on all sides. Isn't a huge part of the issue with police being terrified of everything laid directly at the feet of the completely adversarial nature the War on Drugs forced them into? The Us vs Them narrative is reinforced, crime spreads like loving wildfire (Prohibition, anyone?), and one of the obvious manifestations is the modern relationship between police and minority communities. poo poo, you kneecap drug crime and suddenly how much of that gun violence just magically goes poof? There's a Rogan podcast with a former Baltimore City PO that on the whole is a pretty good and wide-eyed honest take at this whole angle, I've got to remember the dude's name.
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Oct 5, 2017 21:41
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Illinois continues to suck http://ilga.gov/legislation/BillStatus.asp?DocNum=4107&GAID=14&DocTypeID=HB&LegID=107988&SessionID=91
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Oct 6, 2017 00:31
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Doc Hawkins posted:Guns don't kill people, the chemical reactions propelling the bullet do. Buy me a drink baby
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Oct 6, 2017 01:25
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Syrian Lannister posted:Illinois continues to suck If this passes at least I'll have 300 days to get the gently caress out. I just bought an AR-15 and I'll be damned if I become a felon less than a year later because of it. Sheer bloody-minded ignorance.
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Oct 6, 2017 01:41
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Illinois has sucked for ages. I got my FOID card there at 12 because I wanted to hunt. I bought my first real rifle at 15, a ban-era Ruger Mini-14 Ranch, with a 5, 30, and 40 round magazines. Thankfully it was a family friend tabletop ffl, made it relatively painless. But it was still a pain in the dick to buy a gun in Illinois in the 90s. Thank gently caress I left at 16.
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Oct 6, 2017 02:36
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It's still a pain in the dick in the new millennium.
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Oct 6, 2017 04:56
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Syrian Lannister posted:It's still a pain in the dick in the new millennium. To be fair buying my Savage (EVIL BLACK RIFLE HIGH POWERED MILITARY FIREARM WITH HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES AND MANSTOPPER BULLETS) was a pretty simple affair; it started at the gun shop's online store so by the time it actually showed up from shipping the paperwork was done and the waiting period was over. Had I been buying my first gun it would have taken much longer to get the FOID, etc. Edit: five PMags showing up on Monday was weird for the roommates though Professor Bling fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Oct 6, 2017 |
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Oct 6, 2017 06:14
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At least for the only cool part of Illinois (Chicago) you're an hour or less from Wisconsin where you can store whatever cool guns you want so it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Plus AR15s and what not are already illegal in Cook County anyway.
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Oct 6, 2017 15:33
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DoktorLoken posted:At least for the only cool part of Illinois (Chicago) you're an hour or less from Wisconsin where you can store whatever cool guns you want so it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Plus AR15s and what not are already illegal in Cook County anyway. This post is a pretty good rebuttal to "BUT CHICAGO HAS THE TOUGHEST GUN LAWS!!!"
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Oct 6, 2017 16:24
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NUKES CURE NORKS posted:This post is a pretty good rebuttal to "BUT CHICAGO HAS THE TOUGHEST GUN LAWS!!!" I love how they demonstrated exactly why State Level firearms regs don't work, and why Federal Regs are required.
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Oct 6, 2017 16:58
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I dunno, it's usually Indiana that gets singled out by Chicago for supplying crime guns. I rarely if ever have heard Wisconsin referenced in the same way.
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Oct 6, 2017 18:20
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Indiana gets blamed for a bunch of poo poo. Cigarette prices, fireworks, ammo. NW Indiana is Chicago's bitch.
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Oct 6, 2017 19:06
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Gary / Hammond plus the scary non-white residents...
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Oct 6, 2017 19:19
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DoktorLoken posted:I dunno, it's usually Indiana that gets singled out by Chicago for supplying crime guns. I rarely if ever have heard Wisconsin referenced in the same way. It could be any place semi-local to Illinois and it still speaks to the exact same point that I was making.
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Oct 6, 2017 19:28
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I see what point you're trying to make, but I'd maintain that the violence we see in Chicago, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Detroit, etc. is the result of concentrated poverty, segregation, etc. as opposed to simple gun availability. Not that guns don't make it easier for violence to be deadly (they certainly do). I live in Milwaukee and driving through the most impoverished neighborhoods is absolutely gut wrenching. We've got a huge segment of society that has basically been deliberately abandoned and whom most white Republican voters could give two shits about.
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Oct 6, 2017 19:56
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I think we are kind of talking past each other. I'm speaking strictly on the availability and ease of getting firearms in places with "strict" firearm legislation given the ability to go to hundreds of places within a relatively short distance to get firearms. It frustrates me that that fact is constantly overlooked when people talk about how gun violence is prevalent in places like Chicago even though there's strict legislation. The "why" of the violence is a totally different subject.
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Oct 6, 2017 20:39
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NUKES CURE NORKS posted:The "why" of the violence is a totally different subject. The only subject that matters, really. And the one that will never be meaningfully addressed.
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Oct 6, 2017 20:46
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Godholio posted:The only subject that matters, really. And the one that will never be meaningfully addressed. I don't buy this as an excuse to ignore pushing for reasonable gun legislation.
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Oct 6, 2017 20:53
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https://twitter.com/MuslimIQ/status/916012272883027971
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Oct 6, 2017 20:56
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DoktorLoken posted:I see what point you're trying to make, but I'd maintain that the violence we see in Chicago, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Detroit, etc. is the result of concentrated poverty, segregation, etc. as opposed to simple gun availability. Not that guns don't make it easier for violence to be deadly (they certainly do). Why can't it be both? If those neighborhoods weren't mired in concentrated generational poverty but there was no change to gun access, the proliferation of firearms probably wouldn't have as much of an effect on gun violence rates. And if access to firearms was significantly reduced in the US, it's reasonable to expect that even without addressing issues of systematic poverty the rate of deaths and serious injuries from violent crime would be reduced as well. But then, if systematic poverty was addressed and access to firearms were decreased, we should expect to see a larger decrease in deaths and serious injuries from crime than either option alone.
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Oct 6, 2017 20:57
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NUKES CURE NORKS posted:I don't buy this as an excuse to ignore pushing for reasonable gun legislation. It isn't an excuse, but you're more likely to address root causes of crime(not that I bet that'll happen either) than to get some sort of success running head first into the 2nd Amendment and a judiciary that is rather favorable towards it. It isn't a coincidence that the left got really big about blaming everything on guns when they sold out the poor and middle class amd helped turn income inequality up to 11. Proud Christian Mom fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Oct 6, 2017 |
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Oct 6, 2017 21:41
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Proud Christian Mom posted:It isn't an excuse, but you're more likely to address root causes of crime(not that I bet that'll happen either) than to get some sort of success running head first into the 2nd Amendment and a judiciary that is rather favorable towards it. You're crazy if you think that any significant challenge to entrenched wealth and income inequalities wouldn't be fought tooth and nail by the oligarchy that benefits from them. The support for cultural nonsense like banning abortions or clinging to guns is a joke compared to the money and political influence that would be brought to bear against any policy has a chance to make the US a more egalitarian place.
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Oct 6, 2017 21:51
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Proud Christian Mom posted:It isn't an excuse, but you're more likely to address root causes of crime(not that I bet that'll happen either) than to get some sort of success running head first into the 2nd Amendment and a judiciary that is rather favorable towards it. I don't think it's an either/or situation. I liken it to the opioid crisis. Opioids should be heavily regulated AND we should get to the root cause of the problem of addiction and abuse.
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Oct 6, 2017 21:59
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Guy runs before they've searched him, then stops and wheels, raising his hand and directing it towards the cop. Shouldn't be a cop if he can't wait to see if that fraction-of-a-second motion ends with a bullet through his brain, right?
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Oct 7, 2017 01:59
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Victor Vermis posted:Guy runs before they've searched him, then stops and wheels, raising his hand and directing it towards the cop. Cops are never wrong.
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Oct 7, 2017 02:19
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:You're crazy if you think that any significant challenge to entrenched wealth and income inequalities wouldn't be fought tooth and nail by the oligarchy that benefits from them. The support for cultural nonsense like banning abortions or clinging to guns is a joke compared to the money and political influence that would be brought to bear against any policy has a chance to make the US a more egalitarian place. Its almost like I covered that in my post. Lets make this simple: The Republicans have more chance of passing an Amendment that requires all white born children to be issued an AR-15 than Democrats are to getting any meaningful gun control passed that won't be struck down 5-4(at best) by the SCOTUS.
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Oct 7, 2017 02:50
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NUKES CURE NORKS posted:Cops are never wrong. Non-compliant people who act irrationally are always right.
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Oct 7, 2017 03:27
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Okay, ED-209
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Oct 7, 2017 03:33
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Victor Vermis posted:Non-compliant people who act irrationally are always right. Yes, actually.
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Oct 7, 2017 03:40
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Proud Christian Mom posted:Its almost like I covered that in my post. Yeah, and that's the part I disagree with. Substantial gun control is much closer to the realm of political possibility than any sort of significant redistributive economic reforms. Victor Vermis posted:Non-compliant people who act irrationally are always right. Cops kill about 1,000 people per year, while under 100 of them are killed. Hypothetically, if a change in ROE resulted in a few more dead cops but knocked 10% off the number of people they kill, would that be worth it? What about 20%? Because it certainly seems like right now they can make choices that will almost certainly result in someone being killed if there's even the slightest possibility their life might be in danger. And beyond all of the bodies, this undermines their ability to build a rapport with the people they are policing. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Oct 7, 2017 |
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Oct 7, 2017 03:41
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Yeah, and that's the part I disagree with. Substantial gun control is much closer to the realm of political possibility than any sort of significant redistributive economic reforms. In a 5 to 4 decission the Supreme Court overturned... AreWeDrunkYet posted:Cops kill about 1,000 people per year, while under 100 of them are killed. Hypothetically, if a change in ROE resulted in a few more dead cops but knocked 10% off the number of people they kill, would that be worth it? What about 20%? Because it certainly seems like right now they can make choices that will almost certainly result in someone being killed if there's even the slightest possibility their life might be in danger. And beyond all of the bodies, this undermines their ability to build a rapport with the people they are policing. Like 40% of all on-duty deaths are traffic related, too.
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Oct 7, 2017 03:59
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NUKES CURE NORKS posted:I don't buy this as an excuse to ignore pushing for reasonable gun legislation. Sure, but it's pretty rare for reasonable gun legislation to end up as a democrat talking point. And half their talking heads start ranting about how we should do certain things that are already codified. So the credibility isn't really there.
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Oct 7, 2017 04:10
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CommieGIR posted:I love how they demonstrated exactly why State Level firearms regs don't work, and why Federal Regs are required. im like 99% certain that you cant legally buy a gun in state 'a' if you're not a resident of state 'a' unless the weapon is shipped to an ffl in the state where you are a resident. once the gun arrives in whatever state you're a resident of, it is still subject to the laws of that state. i guess it might help to know a few gun laws before you start beating the gun control drum. DoktorLoken posted:I see what point you're trying to make, but I'd maintain that the violence we see in Chicago, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Detroit, etc. is the result of concentrated poverty, segregation, etc. as opposed to simple gun availability. Not that guns don't make it easier for violence to be deadly (they certainly do). i think its fair to say that most voters don't give a poo poo about them.
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Oct 7, 2017 07:11
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vains posted:im like 99% certain that you cant legally buy a gun in state 'a' if you're not a resident of state 'a' unless the weapon is shipped to an ffl in the state where you are a resident. once the gun arrives in whatever state you're a resident of, it is still subject to the laws of that state. This was my understanding when I looked into it, yeah. You see a gun you want to buy in a shop you don't live in. You ask the dealer if they are willing to do an out of state transfer for you. No -> You go home and find it there, maybe. Yes -> They then contact an FFL in your state that will accept out of state transfers. No -> See above Yes -> You buy the gun there, it is shipped to your dealer back home. Return home, fill out 4473, pass NICS check, do whatever extra local tasks you may have, take possession. At least that was the takeaway I got from it. Some dealers, while not legally barred from it, refuse to do out of state transfers due to the extra work involved or if they just don't feel comfortable with it. Some also won't take a gun from COMMIE STATES GRR NO PINKO SALES IN MY FREE ZONES.
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Oct 7, 2017 07:49
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vains posted:i guess it might help to know a few gun laws before you start beating the gun control drum. why would he do that, when he can just squirt mental diarrhea onto message boards? btw, i opened up my safe and gave a warm smile to all my scary "assault weapons" after reading all the hand wringing poo poo in here
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Oct 7, 2017 08:04
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Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:btw, i opened up my safe and gave a warm smile to all my scary "assault weapons" after reading all the hand wringing poo poo in here This is exactly as creepy as you thought it would sound.
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Oct 7, 2017 14:17
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vains posted:im like 99% certain that you cant legally buy a gun in state 'a' if you're not a resident of state 'a' unless the weapon is shipped to an ffl in the state where you are a resident. once the gun arrives in whatever state you're a resident of, it is still subject to the laws of that state. Is anyone suggesting that criminals (most of whom likely have criminal records) doing the shooting in Chicago (or any other city with more stringent firearms restrictions) are going out and directly buying guns in other jurisdictions? The issue is overall proliferation from those places with less restrictive laws leads to increased availability across the board. There aren't security checkpoints between Indiana and Illinois, non-federal restrictions are mostly a waste of time. This is where comprehensive federal background check and registration regimes come in, they provide tools for enforcement agencies to go after guns that are diverted from the legal market.
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Oct 7, 2017 14:55
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vains posted:im like 99% certain that you cant legally buy a gun in state 'a' if you're not a resident of state 'a' unless the weapon is shipped to an ffl in the state where you are a resident. once the gun arrives in whatever state you're a resident of, it is still subject to the laws of that state. You can only buy a handgun in a state that you're a resident of or in the case of active duty military a state that you have PCS orders to AFAIK. But on the other hand it's not difficult to see how someone has connections in state A. buying guns for state B. For example locally we have very open laws (basically nothing stricter than current federal law) and a gun shop that is notorious for being the source of crime guns, given that Milwaukee is only 70-80 miles or so from Chicago so I'd have to imagine that a significant amount of illegally purchased firearms make their way from Milwaukee to Chicago with its relatively strict laws. Chicago borders Indiana so it's probably even easier for people to buy guns there and bring them to Illinois. quote:Is anyone suggesting that criminals (most of whom likely have criminal records) doing the shooting in Chicago (or any other city with more stringent firearms restrictions) are going out and directly buying guns in other jurisdictions? No, but they have people with clean backgrounds willing to make straw purchases. There's a lot of connection between gangs in Chicago and Milwaukee for instance and I'm sure most other midwestern cities as well.
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Oct 7, 2017 15:13
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Don't forget a large portion of weapons recovered in Chicago were purchased to straw buyers who purchased them in another state and sold them at a massive markup in Chicago. EDIT: Beaten.
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Oct 7, 2017 15:36
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Theft from rail yards is also a big problem in Chicago, as is the delay in reporting 2014 http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Assault-Rifles-Stolen-from-Chicago-Rail-Yard--258680391.html 2016 http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/11/22/2-investigators-gun-thefts-continue-at-chicago-railyards/ 2017 http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/03/03/gang-thieves-use-rail-yards-as-shopping-malls-steal-scores-of-guns/ video is the same different article though http://abc7chicago.com/serial-train-robber-gets-10-years-in-gun-thefts-from-chicago-rail-yard/2485318/
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Oct 7, 2017 16:54
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