Israel/Palestine

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(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

Mr. Lobe: Feb 23, 2007; ... Dry bones...

Edit: nm

# ? Oct 3, 2017 03:43

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# ? May 15, 2024 06:23

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

These guys seem normal and not at all Mass murdering Religious fanatics

https://twitter.com/cjwerleman/status/914960057736978437

Note, this is how they normally come across when channels like Aljazeera translate what Israelis especially government officials say to each other about Arabs and Palestinians.

Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Oct 3, 2017

# ? Oct 3, 2017 06:06

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

the old ceremony posted:

he says gently caress off with your greenhouses you piece of rear end

The story I heard about the Greenhouses made me believe that the Gazans were bitter enough to destroy the gift they had been given. At least according to the oft-repeated tale.

But the reality is different and speaks VOLUMES about the propaganda on this issue.

# ? Oct 3, 2017 06:40

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Kim Jong Il posted:

The only people talking about the river to the sea were the Democratic Socialists of America conference attendees who were shouting their pro-ethnic cleansing anthem. There's nothing to suggest that Israel has any intention of genocide. You could argue that they want to commit ethnic cleansing, although that largely isn't true, at least not any more than Palestinians want to commit ethnic cleansing.

Well, the Jewish Home party comes close to that view. Certainly, the lovely lady who's their main spokesperson.

# ? Oct 3, 2017 06:41

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

Kim Jong Il posted:

There's nothing to suggest that Israel has any intention of genocide. You could argue that they want to commit ethnic cleansing, although that largely isn't true, at least not any more than Palestinians want to commit ethnic cleansing.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext-printerfriendly.htm

The legal definition of genocide posted:

Punishable Acts The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group�s existence:

...

4. Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group�s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.

...

you think they're not doing this right now?

# ? Oct 3, 2017 07:04

qkkl: Jul 1, 2013; by FactsAreUseless

starkebn posted:

http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext-printerfriendly.htm

you think they're not doing this right now?

Israel is not depriving Palestinians the resources needed for physical survival. They are limiting them, yes, but not depriving them to the point that Palestinians are dying. The point of that clause was to account for the way Turkey carried out the Armenian genocide, which was mostly not by direct killing, but by leaving the Armenians in the desert with no resources to survive.

# ? Oct 3, 2017 07:25

420 Gank Mid: Dec 26, 2008; WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

qkkl posted:

Israel is not depriving Palestinians the resources needed for physical survival. They are limiting them, yes, but not depriving them to the point that Palestinians are dying.

You might want to double check that part

# ? Oct 3, 2017 07:34

team overhead smash: Sep 2, 2006; Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

qkkl posted:

Israel is not depriving Palestinians the resources needed for physical survival. They are limiting them, yes, but not depriving them to the point that Palestinians are dying. The point of that clause was to account for the way Turkey carried out the Armenian genocide, which was mostly not by direct killing, but by leaving the Armenians in the desert with no resources to survive.

https://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.674064

On a day to day basis they meet certain basic needs, enough to avoid qualifying as genocide even if it does constitute war crimes of a different nature (Geneva Convention laws on occupation). However there is concern that the medium term results of Israel's actions will render Gaza uninhabitable.

The other potential qualification for genocide is via lowballing the requirements for what constitutes part of a group, though that's not an approach I favour.

In regards to Zionism, I think the issue is it's hard to define and a lot of people will be using different meanings.

# ? Oct 3, 2017 13:27

FreshlyShaven: Sep 2, 2004; Je ne veux pas d'un monde o� la certitude de mourir de faim s'�change contre le risque de mourir d'ennui

quote:

And now it's completely reversed after decades

First off, it's not completely reversed. Non-white Jews still face significant economic and social disadvantages. Go to an Israeli prison and you'll find that among the Jewish population, Mizrahim are over-represented and Ashkenazim, especially those from Western Europe/the Anglosphere, are significantly under-represented. By contrast, students at the elite universities and the wealthy are overwhelmingly white and Ashkenazi.

quote:

Tel Aviv Ashkenazim funding Peace Now and NIF while Mizrahim vote in lockstep for war and militarism.

There are actually left-wing Mizrahim and there are plenty of ultra right-wing Ashkenazim. Yes, Mizrahim are more likely to vote for right-wing parties, but that's largely because a) it was a Labour government that forced them (or their parents/grandparents) to undergo delousing upon their arrival, which abducted their children, which treated them as half-savages and excluded them and the center-left refuses to take their concerns seriously to this day and b) like ethnic whites, those who find themselves in an intermediate position on the racial hierarchy often see bigotry and hatred towards those lower on the scale as their ticket to advancement, to showing that they truly belong to the dominant group and not the subaltern one.

quote:

Richard Spencer concern trolling that he's just like a Zionist

Spencer is not concern trolling; he's exploiting an inherent contradiction in the center-left (pro-Zionist) worldview: how can you call me a racist for not supporting equal rights in America but then refuse to accept equal rights in Israel? How can you support having the Israeli state discriminate on the basis of race/religion in almost every aspect of daily life and then call me a bigot for saying the American government should do the same? If you think it's racist for the American government to ban refugees, to privilege white or Christian immigration at the expense of non-white/non-Christian immigration, to permit housing and educational discrimination, then how can you support those policies in Israel?

Omri Boehm sums it up pretty drat well:

quote:

In the last few decades, many of America�s Jewish communities have grown accustomed to living in a political contradiction. On one hand, a large majority of these communities could rightly take pride in a powerful liberal tradition, stretching back to such models as Louis Brandeis � a defender of social justice and the first Jew to become a Supreme Court justice � or Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, who marched in Selma alongside the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. On the other hand, the same communities have often identified themselves with Zionism, a political agenda rooted in the denial of liberal politics.

To appreciate this inherent tension, consider Hillary Clinton�s words from the second presidential debate: �It is important for us as a policy not to say, as Donald has said, we�re going to ban people based on a religion. How do you do that? We are a country founded on religious freedom and liberty.� Here Clinton establishes a minimum standard of liberal decency that few American Jews would be inclined to deny. But she is not the incoming president. Trump�s willingness to reject this standard is now a cause for alarm among Jewish communities, along with those of other American minorities.

Yet insofar as Israel is concerned, every liberal Zionist has not just tolerated the denial of this minimum liberal standard, but avowed this denial as core to their innermost convictions. Whereas liberalism depends on the idea that states must remain neutral on matters of religion and race, Zionism consists in the idea that the State of Israel is not Israeli, but Jewish. As such, the country belongs first and foremost not to its citizens, but to the Jewish people � a group that�s defined by ethnic affiliation or religious conversion.

As long as liberalism was secure back in America and the rejection of liberalism confined to the Israeli scene, this tension could be mitigated. But as it spills out into the open in the rapidly changing landscape of American politics, the double standard is becoming difficult to defend.

That difficulty was apparent earlier this month at an event at Texas A&M University when Richard Spencer, one of the ideological leaders of the alt-right�s white nationalist agenda � which he has called �a sort of white Zionism� � was publicly challenged by the university�s Hillel Rabbi Matt Rosenberg, to study with him the Jewish religion�s �radical inclusion� and love. �Do you really want radical inclusion into the state of Israel?� Spencer replied. �Maybe all of the Middle East can go move into Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Would you really want that?� Spencer went on to argue that Israel�s ethnic-based politics was the reason Jews had a strong, cohesive identity, and that Spencer himself admired them for it.

The rabbi could not find words to answer, and his silence reverberates still. It made clear that an argument that does not embrace a double standard is difficult to come by.

quote:

the overwhelming majority of white supremacists despise Israel.

Source? Maybe if you limit "white supremacists" to octogenarians who still wear a white cape, this might be true. But the vast majority of the far-right wing which supports white supremacy is vociferously pro-Israel. It's not a coincidence that Trump was the first presidential candidate to open a campaign office in Israel.

quote:

. The discrimination that does exist in Israel proper is largely a result of pandering to anti-Zionist haredim

Really? The Haredim are responsible for the over 65 laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel? The Haredim are responsible for the ethnic cleansing of the Bedouin from the Negev to make room for Jewish-only, no-Arabs-need-apply settlements? For state-sponsored segregation in housing and education? For Israel's discriminatory immigration/refugee policies? For the fact that 1 out of 4 Palestinian citizens of Israel are "present absentees" meaning that their own government robbed them of their land and property without apology or compensation because of their racial/religious identity? For the Israel government's choice to place Palestinians in the Occupied Territories under military law and to strip them of their most basic human rights while granting full rights and access to civilian courts to the illegal Jewish settlers? Those Haredim sure have been busy!

quote:

and while unacceptable in any capacity, is par for the course for the rest of the west.

That's just silly. Most Western states do not have state-sponsored housing or educational segregation. Most Western states do not refer to their ethnic minorities as "demographic threats" and pass laws designed to encourage them to leave. An organization like the JNF could not operate in any Western democracy; can you imagine an organization dedicated to buying black or Latino-owned land and renting it out exclusively to white tenants (or buying up Jewish, Muslim, Catholic and Hindu land and renting it out exclusively to Protestants) being allowed to operate in the US or the UK or Canada or any other Western country? Do you know of any Western state whose immigration policies openly discriminate on the basis of religion or ethnicity/race?

quote:

In fact, Jewish opposition to Zionism pre-1967 wasn't really a radical movement,

No, Zionism was a minority (or at least non-dominant) opinion amongst Jews well up into the 60s. There's a long history of radical, socialist and republican opposition to Zionism on the grounds that it opposes universalism, is a colonialist movement and essentially buys into the antisemitic trope that Jews don't belong in the West, that there's no such thing as a Jewish Frenchman or Brit or Spaniard or German, only Jews (whose only home is in the Middle East) living in France or the UK, etc as foreigners on their own land.

quote:

This is a blatant, ugly lie. Zionism does not make exclusive claims about anything. Strains of expansionist Zionism make claims on Palestinian territory, but most do not.

Every Zionist agrees that the state of Israel belongs exclusively to the Jewish people, not to all of its citizens. This is inscribed directly into the Law of Return and the Basic Laws. It's why the Zionist movement from the very beginning insisted on segregation and all-Jewish labor and why the first targets of the ethnic cleansing campaign were areas like Haifa that had a mixed Jewish/Muslim/Christian population. It's why Israel treats its Arab minorities as "demographic threats"; it's why there's no Israeli nationality but rather nationality is based on race/religion with Jewish nationality being the only one that guarantees first-class citizenship; it's why the government forbids Arab politicians from revindicating equal treatment under threat of expulsion from the Knesset; it's why Ben-Gurion saw ethnic cleansing of the indigenous non-Jewish population as the only way to guarantee a "Jewish state"; it's why the Supreme Court ruled that equal treatment under the law would be "national suicide"; it's why the Basic Laws permit state-sponsored discrimination in the name of maintaining Jewish hegemony; and it's why Zionists and the state of Israel consider BDS' demands to recognize the right of return and to guarantee equal treatment for Palestinian citizens to be a denial of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish ethnocratic state: if Israel belonged not to one racial/religious group in particular but to all the people of the land be they Jewish, Muslim, Christian or other and guaranteed equal rights for all, it would no longer be a "Jewish state" in the way that modern Zionism conceives of it. The difference in this respect between different strains of Zionism is what exactly constitutes this land belonging exclusively to one racial/religious group (the Jewish people): one faction believes everything from the Jordan River to the sea belongs to the Jews whereas the other side believes only the land contained within the Green Line is the exclusive property of the Jewish people (with many Zionists in between).

quote:

Opposition to Zionism is the belief that Jews, unique and exclusively among all peoples, must be denied their right to national self-determination. If you actually oppose Zionism, and not some cartoon strawman, that's what you support.

Every racial, ethnic or religious group has a right to their own state even when the creation of such a state requires ethnic cleansing and state-sponsored discrimination? There are 195 countries in the world yet thousands of religious, ethnic and racial groups. If say, Roma or Sikh colonists showed up in your town, executed your neighbors and ordered you to leave at gunpoint because "this is our land now and you're not welcome(or if we're lucky, we might allow you to stay as a token second-class citizen)", I assume you'd have no hard feelings and certainly wouldn't want to be so bigoted as to deny their right to self-determine your homeland, right?

quote:

Modern white supremacism is grounded in racial pseudo-science.

No, this has never been true, even less so nowadays. White supremacy is much more into justifying itself through culture and (in recent years) deformed identity politics than racial science. You hear a lot more talk about "Judeo-Christian civilization" and "cultural identity" among white supremacists today than you do references to the Bell Curve or phrenology. Hell, look at the history of colonialism (of which Zionism is one branch): while racial science wasn't completely absent (think of the Hutus/Tutsis divide), the whole concept of the White Man's Burden/ la mission civilisatrice is based on the idea that the brown and black peoples to be subjugated (or in some cases expelled) are not genetically inferior but at a lower level of civilization and enlightenment which can be addressed through colonialism.

quote:

This is not the claim of Zionism.

Yes, it is. Ethnic cleansing was "built into" Zionism as Morris put it. Or listen to Ari Shavit:

quote:

When one opens the black box, one understands that, whereas the massacre at the mosque could have been triggered by a misunderstanding brought about by a tragic chain of accidental events, the conquest of Lydda and the expulsion of Lydda�s population were no accident. Those events were a crucial phase of the Zionist revolution, and they laid the foundation for the Jewish state. Lydda is an integral and essential part of the story. And, when I try to be honest about it, I see that the choice is stark: either reject Zionism because of Lydda or accept Zionism along with Lydda.

One thing is clear to me: Mula Cohen and Shmarya Gutman were right to be angry with the critics of later years who condemned what they did in Lydda but enjoyed the fruits of their deed. I will not drat the brigade commander and the military governor and the 3rd Battalion soldiers. On the contrary. If need be, I�ll stand by the damned, because I know that if not for them the State of Israel would not have been born. If not for them, I would not have been born. They did the filthy work that enables my people, my nation, my daughter, my sons, and me to live.

But, looking straight ahead at Lydda, I wonder if peace is possible. Our side is clear: we had to come into the Lydda Valley and we had to take the Lydda Valley. There is no other home for us, and there was no other way. But the Arabs� side, the Palestinian side, is equally clear: they cannot forget Lydda and they cannot forgive us for Lydda. You can argue that it is not the occupation of 1967 that is at the core of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but the tragedy of 1948. It�s not only the settlements that are an obstacle to peace but the Palestinians� yearning to return, one way or another, to Lydda and to dozens of other towns and villages that vanished during one cataclysmic year. But the Jewish State cannot let them return. Israel has a right to live, and if Israel is to live it cannot resolve the Lydda issue.

quote:

There was plenty of room for everyone, and it's a tragedy that reactionary shitheads made that impossible.

Not according to Ben-Gurion and the Zionist leadership, there wasn't. A Jewish state meant Jewish domination over the state and that was impossible without ethnic cleansing or apartheid or some mix of the two. Do some reading on the history of the Zionist project.

# ? Oct 3, 2017 16:34

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

the interviews Abby Martin is doing with these colonialist sons of bitches is insane, these people are literally ISIS fanatical colonialists pieces of poo poo. Disgusting. However it's not really surprising because this is normally how they talk to arabs and palestinians so it's good that Abby is translating their rhetoric to English so everyone can see clearly.

https://twitter.com/MikePrysner/status/915244832393650178

However, that Ronnie Harkan is a good guy and a Hero, people like him need help and support and financing, poor guy is a light of humanity in the darkness of apartheid racism.

# ? Oct 3, 2017 18:19

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

Not surprisingly;

A new United Nations report accuses Israel of having established “an apartheid regime that oppresses and dominates the Palestinian people as a whole”.

# ? Oct 3, 2017 18:43

team overhead smash: Sep 2, 2006; Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

starkebn posted:

Not surprisingly;

A new United Nations report accuses Israel of having established “an apartheid regime that oppresses and dominates the Palestinian people as a whole”.

I think this report is actually from March and is accessible here: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/w...ion-english.pdf

Can;t find it on https://www.unescwa.org

# ? Oct 3, 2017 21:49

Kim Jong Il: Aug 16, 2003

VideoGameVet posted:

Well, the Jewish Home party comes close to that view. Certainly, the lovely lady who's their main spokesperson.

And that's why I despise that party and Likud too. If I had a vote, I would support Yesh Atid. Extremists exist and they've exploited situations for terrible gain, but what matters is how prevalent their views actually are.

FreshlyShaven posted:

Spencer is not concern trolling; he's exploiting an inherent contradiction in the center-left (pro-Zionist) worldview: how can you call me a racist for not supporting equal rights in America but then refuse to accept equal rights in Israel? How can you support having the Israeli state discriminate on the basis of race/religion in almost every aspect of daily life and then call me a bigot for saying the American government should do the same? If you think it's racist for the American government to ban refugees, to privilege white or Christian immigration at the expense of non-white/non-Christian immigration, to permit housing and educational discrimination, then how can you support those policies in Israel?

They don't have equal rights for immigration the way most countries do not either. America's immigration laws are massively discriminatory. The countless number of countries that give citizens privileged status for ethnic ties are massively discriminatory. This is a fine argument for a stateless world, but it's not a good one for singling out Israel when it's one in a sea of countries with similar immigration policies. The behavior towards African refugees is repellent, but it's not a core tenet of Zionism. Look at strongly Zionist groups like HIAS and how they've weighed in here. Anyone who genuinely wants to immigrate to Israel, as opposed to trying to replace it with another state, should be welcome. Immigration strengthening societies is a universal principle. Spencer likes the strawman about Israel that anti-Zionists created, not the true pluralistic Israel. There are indeed reactionaries in Israeli politics, and they should be shunned and ostracized, but that doesn't mean they're representative, just that the Knesset is broken just like it is on many topics.

quote:

Source? Maybe if you limit "white supremacists" to octogenarians who still wear a white cape, this might be true. But the vast majority of the far-right wing which supports white supremacy is vociferously pro-Israel. It's not a coincidence that Trump was the first presidential candidate to open a campaign office in Israel

Just like you, I'm citing my experiences, although if some brave soul has polled white supremacists on this topic go right ahead. If you only get your news from anti-Zionist sources you're probably only seeing them gleefully post quotes from Spencer and not the ZOG stuff which is still widely prevalent on the internet.

quote:

Really? The Haredim are responsible for the over 65 laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel? The Haredim are responsible for the ethnic cleansing of the Bedouin from the Negev to make room for Jewish-only, no-Arabs-need-apply settlements? For state-sponsored segregation in housing and education? For Israel's discriminatory immigration/refugee policies? For the fact that 1 out of 4 Palestinian citizens of Israel are "present absentees" meaning that their own government robbed them of their land and property without apology or compensation because of their racial/religious identity? For the Israel government's choice to place Palestinians in the Occupied Territories under military law and to strip them of their most basic human rights while granting full rights and access to civilian courts to the illegal Jewish settlers? Those Haredim sure have been busy!

You drat well should know that the Haredim receive massive, disproportionate subsidies that all non-Haredim don't receive, which cover a lot of what you mentioned, a good portion of the rest not having to do with equality under the law, or cover the territories which was not what I was talking about. That inequitable distribution is a huge driver of the ethnic income inequality in Israeli society today. And they're the ones responsible for all laws having to do with ethnic purity.

quote:

That's just silly. Most Western states do not have state-sponsored housing or educational segregation. Most Western states do not refer to their ethnic minorities as "demographic threats" and pass laws designed to encourage them to leave. An organization like the JNF could not operate in any Western democracy; can you imagine an organization dedicated to buying black or Latino-owned land and renting it out exclusively to white tenants (or buying up Jewish, Muslim, Catholic and Hindu land and renting it out exclusively to Protestants) being allowed to operate in the US or the UK or Canada or any other Western country? Do you know of any Western state whose immigration policies openly discriminate on the basis of religion or ethnicity/race?

You are laughably ignorant about many western states, because that stuff is disturbingly common. The US still effectively enforces redlining through policy, and our president screams every day about minorities in a way that would make Netanyahu blush, and the entire west is on a disgusting wave of racist populism right now. Absolutely racist restrictions on home ownership and renting remain prevalent in parts of the US. US immigration policy is wildly racist against Hispanics.

quote:

No, Zionism was a minority (or at least non-dominant) opinion amongst Jews well up into the 60s.

Certainly 1967 spiked support for Zionism, but the Holocaust and WW2 had already gotten them down that path. The radicals coming off the boat had every opinion under the sun. American Jewish anti-Zionism was led by the Reform movement, and my characterization of the beliefs of that cluster was correct.

quote:

Every Zionist agrees that the state of Israel belongs exclusively to the Jewish people, not to all of its citizens.

Nope. No claim to exclusivity.

quote:

Every racial, ethnic or religious group has a right to their own state even when the creation of such a state requires ethnic cleansing and state-sponsored discrimination?

It required no such thing - never has and never will.

# ? Oct 5, 2017 02:05

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

So, is Jewish Home and Likud getting funds from American Christian Fundamentalists?

I know some of the settlers are getting funded by these groups, even running tours for visiting American Christian Fundamentalists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PLIWZj5Buk

# ? Oct 5, 2017 05:48

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

this sure ain't fair

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/israel-seals-west-bank-gaza-sukkot-begins-171004115622869.html

# ? Oct 6, 2017 05:16

FreshlyShaven: Sep 2, 2004; Je ne veux pas d'un monde o� la certitude de mourir de faim s'�change contre le risque de mourir d'ennui

Your argument that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is in any way comparable to the treatment of religious and racial minorities in Western countries is complete bunk, but it is clever; I assume you plan to accuse me of being blind to the serious problems with racism in the US and other Western countries as a way to dismiss Israel's apartheid regime as no big deal. Given the enormous cross-over between BDS and the BLM movement and the fact that BDS supporters are more aware and active against issues of racism in the US and their home countries, you can save yourself the effort. Yes, America and other Western countries have serious issues with racism, but there's a big difference between the lingering economic inequalities of state-sponsored racism and individual acts of bigotry that occur despite the law on the one hand and state-sponsored racism of the Jim Crow variety which Israel still practices and which is essential to the country's self-image and functioning on the other. Yes, America's housing stock is largely segregated despite many governmental efforts to prohibit housing discrimination. But there's a difference between a broker not telling his black clients about a house in a white neighborhood or a white homeowner finding a financial pretext in the application to refuse to sell to a black family and the government specifically subsidizing Jewish-only housing, targeting people for eviction or dispossession explicitly on account of their racial/religious identity and empowering communities to write "no Arabs need apply" housing covenants. Find me an equivalent of the JNF in any Western democracy; if I were to start an organization dedicated to buying up land from Afro-Americans and Latinos in order to rent it out exclusively to white people, I would either be in jail or up to my eyeballs in lawsuits, many of them filed by my local and state governments. Find me a mayor of a Western country's largest city openly announcing a "caucanization" campaign to clear non-white neighborhoods and transform them into white-only neighborhoods like the Judaization campaign happening in Jerusalem with the blessing of the Israeli government.

quote:

They don't have equal rights for immigration the way most countries do not either. America's immigration laws are massively discriminatory. The countless number of countries that give citizens privileged status for ethnic ties are massively discriminatory.

Again, show me an equivalent in a Western democracy to Israel's explicitly racist immigration policies. Yes, xenophobia is disturbingly common in Western countries and much of the xenophobic rhetoric is at the very least tinged with racism, but the US immigration system is not at all comparable to Israel's. The US discriminates on education level, family ties, profession, income and criminal record. Its tourist visa system discriminates on the economic and political stability of the applicant's home country, under the theory that a tourist is more likely to overstay his visa if he comes from a poor and violent area than if he comes from a prosperous and stable country; while these countries tend to be white, being white does not guarantee you instant access to a US vacation (just ask the Poles or the Russians) whereas non-white travelers from wealthy countries don't even need to apply for a tourist visa. The US is forbidden by law from discriminating on the basis of race, religion or ethnicity which is why Trump couldn't pass an actual Muslim ban, instead having to settle for a ban on immigration from several Muslim-majority countries (which does not affect Muslims from other countries and which does affect non-Muslims in the listed countries.) This is similar in all Western countries I am aware of; while some countries like Germany use ius sanguinis, being of that country's dominant ethnicity or religion does not guarantee entrance much less citizenship (ethnically-German Americans have no advantage over Americans of other backgrounds when applying to live or work in Germany) and non-members of that ethnicity are able to gain citizenship if their parents had it(and this citizenship is generally based on whether one's ancestors were living on the land that now constitutes the country when the country was founded; if your great-great-great grandmother/father was living in Germany when the German state was united[with citizenship being granted to those living in territories subsequently conquered by the state], she and her offspring have citizenship regardless of their race/religion/ethnicity unless they voluntarily surrender it by emigrating.) Israel's immigration policy by contrast is unalloyed bigotry: if you belong to one racial/religious group, you are essentially guaranteed citizenship and free entry. If you belong to another group (Palestinians), you are either explicitly banned from setting foot on Palestinian soil or you are treated to a complimentary cavity search, ten hour interrogation and a return trip straight from the airport. That's why the US refuses to grant Israel a visa waiver- because American citizens of Arab ethnicity are regularly denied access to Israel because of their race/religion.

quote:

Look at strongly Zionist groups like HIAS and how they've weighed in here.

I'm unaware of HIAS' stance on the Palestinian refugees. They must support granting the right of return, right? Or do they support banning them out of "demographic concerns" (ie, racism)?

quote:

not the true pluralistic Israel.

Which only seems to exist in your imagination and in the hopes of BDS supporters.

quote:

If you only get your news from anti-Zionist sources you're probably only seeing them gleefully post quotes from Spencer and not the ZOG stuff which is still widely prevalent on the internet.

No, there aren't reliable polls of white supremacist opinion. However, if you look at the white supremacists/alt-right/neo-fascist groups that actually hold power, the vast majority are Israelophiles. You mention for instance Jean-Marine Le Pen, ignoring that while he's a powerless dinosaur, his Israel-loving white supremacist daughter is practically storming the gates of the Elys�e. The only prominent anti-Israel groups of this sort that I can think of are Jobbik in Hungary (actually, scratch that: it looks like Jobbik has joined the "support Israel to better hate Muslims" bandwagon, and that's not even considering that the more mainstream but arguably fascist and white supremacist Fidesz party is also solidly pro-Israel) and the Golden Dawn in Greece. The BNF/UKIP, FN, AfD as well as the groups that brought the alt-right into the mainstream are all pro-Israel and see their support for Israel as part of their war on Muslims.

quote:

You drat well should know that the Haredim receive massive, disproportionate subsidies that all non-Haredim don't receive, which cover a lot of what you mentioned

This is a non-sequitur and I'm sure a Haredi would call it anti-semitic scapegoating. How are the Haredim responsible for ethnic cleansing in the Negev? How are they responsible for the government of Israel robbing 1/4 of its Arab citizens because they were Arab? How are they responsible for an openly racist immgration policy that's been in place almost since Israel's founding? How are they responsible for the ethnic cleansing which Ben-Gurion saw as a prerequisite for a Jewish-dominated state? How are they responsible for state-sponsored housing and education segregation?

quote:

a good portion of the rest not having to do with equality under the law,

What? I gave clear examples of state-sponsored racism. Everything I listed is a violation of equality under the law.

quote:

or cover the territories which was not what I was talking about.

And who's occupying these territories? The same government which systematically discriminates against its own Arab citizens. It takes deliberate blindness to not see a connection between a government which openly discriminates on the basis of race/religion within the Green line and a racist policy imposed by that same government on occupied territories which robs the inhabitants of those territories of all legal rights explicitly on account of their race/religion.

quote:

and our president screams every day about minorities in a way that would make Netanyahu blush,

Netanyahu's cabinet has used Nazi-level language towards Palestinians, calling them vermin and advocating that Palestinian women be murdered so they can't give birth to little snakes. He also won his most recent election with an openly-racist campaign of fear mongering against Arab voters. I don't think Netanyahu is capable of blushing at racism.

quote:

Nope. No claim to exclusivity.

Denialism is more effective if it has some contact with reality.

quote:

It required no such thing - never has and never will.

It's too bad you weren't around to tell that to Ben-Gurion and the Zionist leadership back in 47/48.

FreshlyShaven fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Oct 7, 2017

# ? Oct 7, 2017 16:47

Kim Jong Il: Aug 16, 2003

The only obvious connection between BLM and I/P is that the Ferguson police, much like Hamas, believe that detainees have no due process or civil liberties, and hence are acceptable to summarily execute. The fact that a handful of insane radicals like to issue press releases to make themselves feel self important has zero bearing on blacks being disproportionately stopped by police and working on systematic ways to address it. Escalation of police militarization has a long tradition in the United States, and for a very long time was exclusively the focus of libertarians while being ignored by the left. Seeing links between American idiocy and Israeli policy is the same self serving bullshit like trying to excuse our involvement in Iraq. It's the US's fault, and the US's fault alone. And if you want to complain about police militarization, you can start with Chavez and Maduro in Venezuela.

Good lord you are an apologist for our horrific housing and immigration policies and profoundly ignorant on both. The inequalities aren't lingering. They're actively promoted and enforced by many state and local governments across the country, actively promoted and enforced by the Trump administration, and the inherited wealth that came out of segregation has overwhelming implications to this day. I'm from a heavily Italian neighborhood in the northeast. There are at least 5 towns in the county I grew up where it is simply not possible to buy a home as an African American or Hispanic. This is widespread across New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, etc... nevermind the South.

The exact same applies to our immigration policy. You're arguing because we're better at not writing things down, but in actuality produce far more racist outcomes, that's somehow acceptable. And jus soli is not meaningfully distinctive from Israeli policy. It's the same abstract standard of "ties" to a country, which is inherently biased towards native, dominant ethnicities. Any policy that isn't 100% open borders is profoundly racist and reactionary.

quote:

I'm unaware of HIAS' stance on the Palestinian refugees.

quote:

Which only seems to exist in your imagination and in the hopes of BDS supporters.

I was referring to Syrian refugees in general, and African refugees in Israel. Zionists have strong support towards both groups, but have not achieved those policy outcomes due to how the Knesset works. Just like majorities in the US support gun control.

BDS supporters are members of a movement that inherently necessitates ethnic cleansing, in direct contrast to the anti-ethnic cleansing position of Zionism. People who are ignorant about what BDS is actually trying to do, or fellow travelers by convenience who don't support Barghouti's racist ethnonationalism are the exception, just like groups like Jewish Home are the exception to Zionism's overwhelming pluralism.

quote:

No, there aren't reliable polls of white supremacist opinion. However, if you look at the white supremacists/alt-right/neo-fascist groups that actually hold power, the vast majority are Israelophiles. You mention for instance Jean-Marine Le Pen, ignoring that while he's a powerless dinosaur, his Israel-loving white supremacist daughter is practically storming the gates of the Elys�e. The only prominent anti-Israel groups of this sort that I can think of are Jobbik in Hungary (actually, scratch that: it looks like Jobbik has joined the "support Israel to better hate Muslims" bandwagon, and that's not even considering that the more mainstream but arguably fascist and white supremacist Fidesz party is also solidly pro-Israel) and the Golden Dawn in Greece. The BNF/UKIP, FN, AfD as well as the groups that brought the alt-right into the mainstream are all pro-Israel and see their support for Israel as part of their war on Muslims.

You're not arguing what you think you are. These racist groups are trying to get elected by any means necessary, and are either hiding components of their core beliefs that are less politically popular, or actually are being watered down with dispersal from the center right. Through the sausage making of governing and coalition building, the beliefs of actual parties (e.g., compare Paul Ryan to the average Trump voter - Ryan's policies don't mean the voters don't hate Mexicans) have little in common, and furthermore anti-Muslim xenophobia is trumping all else.

quote:

This is a non-sequitur and I'm sure a Haredi would call it anti-semitic scapegoating. How are the Haredim responsible for ethnic cleansing in the Negev? How are they responsible for the government of Israel robbing 1/4 of its Arab citizens because they were Arab? How are they responsible for an openly racist immgration policy that's been in place almost since Israel's founding? How are they responsible for the ethnic cleansing which Ben-Gurion saw as a prerequisite for a Jewish-dominated state? How are they responsible for state-sponsored housing and education segregation?

They're the prime mover of the last piece. You're otherwise criticizing either history, or the same things that every state does. If you remove Haredi privilege, ethnic economic outcomes would be far more equitable.

quote:

And who's occupying these territories? The same government which systematically discriminates against its own Arab citizens. It takes deliberate blindness to not see a connection between a government which openly discriminates on the basis of race/religion within the Green line and a racist policy imposed by that same government on occupied territories which robs the inhabitants of those territories of all legal rights explicitly on account of their race/religion.

You can't compare domestic policy to a foreign war, it's neither here nor there. They have nothing in common because the two are completely distinct countries. Discrimination against any Israeli by the Israeli state is completely unacceptable, and the majority would cease when you stop the afore-mentioned subsidies. Matters of war and diplomacy are foreign policy. Trying to force the two together in a shotgun marriage, or undermine the anti-occupation movement by attacking the legitimacy of Israel itself, those are both the prime of self-defeating idiocy.

quote:

Netanyahu's cabinet has used Nazi-level language towards Palestinians, calling them vermin and advocating that Palestinian women be murdered so they can't give birth to little snakes. He also won his most recent election with an openly-racist campaign of fear mongering against Arab voters. I don't think Netanyahu is capable of blushing at racism.

This is unacceptable, as is the similar behavior from Palestinian elected officials. Shaked, like her mirror in the BDS movement, believes in collective punishment and group responsibility. These are all reprehensible and must be universally condemned.

Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Oct 7, 2017

# ? Oct 7, 2017 22:48

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Kim Jong Il posted:

BDS supporters are members of a movement that inherently necessitates ethnic cleansing, in direct contrast to the anti-ethnic cleansing position of Zionism.

Can you, one of these days, land on Planet Earth and look at what is actually happening here?

# ? Oct 7, 2017 23:09

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

starkebn posted:

this sure ain't fair

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/israel-seals-west-bank-gaza-sukkot-begins-171004115622869.html

Isn't Al-Jazeera a less trustworthy source these days (especially on I/P matters) now that the Qatari royal family has tightened their grip on it? I seem to remember that happening.

Just mentioning because I've seen a bunch of folks uncritically cite it as a source, and I wanted to check whether it still deserved that.

# ? Oct 7, 2017 23:15

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

Do you think they're reporting on a policy that isn't actually happening?

# ? Oct 7, 2017 23:19

Polygynous: Dec 13, 2006; welp

Cat Mattress posted:

Can you, one of these days, land on Planet Earth and look at what is actually happening here?

Calling for boycotts of Israel until they stop ethnic cleansing is the real ethnic cleansing, don't you know.

# ? Oct 7, 2017 23:23

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

boycotting apartheid sa was the real apartheid

:smugdog:

# ? Oct 7, 2017 23:47

FreshlyShaven: Sep 2, 2004; Je ne veux pas d'un monde o� la certitude de mourir de faim s'�change contre le risque de mourir d'ennui

Darth Walrus posted:

Isn't Al-Jazeera a less trustworthy source these days (especially on I/P matters) now that the Qatari royal family has tightened their grip on it? I seem to remember that happening.

Just mentioning because I've seen a bunch of folks uncritically cite it as a source, and I wanted to check whether it still deserved that.

I've not heard of AJ being less reliable due to the political situation but would be interested if you have any details for that. It was never a reliable source on Qatari politics, but it's usually pretty good at international news. Still, this is definitely happening: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.815173. Israel often pulls this kind of poo poo. No better way to build bridges and understanding between faiths than using a Jewish holiday as an excuse to make life even more miserable for an oppressed population.

# ? Oct 7, 2017 23:53

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

FreshlyShaven posted:

I've not heard of AJ being less reliable due to the political situation but would be interested if you have any details for that. It was never a reliable source on Qatari politics, but it's usually pretty good at international news. Still, this is definitely happening: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.815173. Israel often pulls this kind of poo poo. No better way to build bridges and understanding between faiths than using a Jewish holiday as an excuse to make life even more miserable for an oppressed population.

Found a 2013 article on Der Spiegel, which is generally a reputable source. Apparently, the Arab Spring got the monarchy nervous about the disadvantages of a free press.

At the very least, it's nice to have corroboration from another reliable site.

# ? Oct 8, 2017 00:23

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

There's an article in the times about music and backgammon events for israelis and palestinians to come together.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/world/middleeast/jerusalem-palestinians-arts.html

quote:

�I stopped hoping for a peace agreement,� Mr. Spinoza said in an interview, �so I do it my own way � I live the peace.� Of the more traditional methods of fostering coexistence in the city, he added: �Dialogue groups are not the best fun. This is fun.�

Mr. Spinoza often hosts Palestinian rappers like the duo Muzi Raps, from the Old City, and Raed Bassem Jabid, from the Palestinian neighborhood of At-Tur on the Mount of Olives. �If you�re looking for peace,� Mr. Jabid said, �you�ll find the peace.�

Even in peacetime, though, attempts to escape politics can be viewed as political. Many Palestinians, for instance, reject what they call cultural normalization with the Israelis.

What is "cultural normalization with the Israelis?"

# ? Oct 10, 2017 04:42

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

hakimashou posted:

There's an article in the times about music and backgammon events for israelis and palestinians to come together.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/world/middleeast/jerusalem-palestinians-arts.html

What is "cultural normalization with the Israelis?"

Interacting with Israelis, acknowledging that they're probably not going anywhere and\or taking any action that might possibly lead to de escalation and co-existence that isn't preempted by Israel recognizing the right of return is a big no-no for many.

Many palestinian groups refuse to cooperate with any Israeli groups, even the most left leaning ones such as BTselem as long as the latter refuse to publicly endorse the right of return.

Etc.

# ? Oct 10, 2017 07:38

spaceships: Aug 4, 2005; i love too dumptruck

guacamole aficionado

Kim Jong Il posted:

The only obvious connection between BLM and I/P is that the Ferguson police, much like Hamas, believe that detainees have no due process or civil liberties, and hence are acceptable to summarily execute.

this is some wild poo poo right here

# ? Oct 10, 2017 10:47

Cefte: Sep 18, 2004; tranquil consciousness

Kim Jong Il posted:

Escalation of police militarization has a long tradition in the United States, and for a very long time was exclusively the focus of libertarians

# ? Oct 10, 2017 12:17

Under the vegetable: Nov 2, 2004; by Smythe

Darth Walrus posted:

Isn't Al-Jazeera a less trustworthy source these days (especially on I/P matters) now that the Qatari royal family has tightened their grip on it? I seem to remember that happening.

Just mentioning because I've seen a bunch of folks uncritically cite it as a source, and I wanted to check whether it still deserved that.

I'd rather trust Qatar than the people accusing them of corruption (israel, Saudi Arabia, UAE, egypt, etc)

# ? Oct 10, 2017 20:44

Under the vegetable: Nov 2, 2004; by Smythe

the old ceremony posted:

in my experience goons think that if they poke enough logical holes in judaism, israel and the diaspora will all embrace rational atheism and the world's problems will magically disappear. what they don't understand is that poking logical holes in judaism is kind of what judaism is all about.

i dont understand the mentality of bragging that your religion is about trying to trick and outsmart god

# ? Oct 10, 2017 20:46

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

Under the vegetable posted:

I'd rather trust Qatar than the people accusing them of corruption (israel, Saudi Arabia, UAE, egypt, etc)

I think it's not so much a matter of trusting/not trusting as it is "understanding the biases that might exist due to the source's circumstances and accounting them into your interpretation of their reporting."

I would still trust Al Jazeera more than most American media, just making sure to take into account situations where Qatar might have a vested interest.

# ? Oct 10, 2017 20:50

Under the vegetable: Nov 2, 2004; by Smythe

http://www.aljazeera.com/investigations/thelobby/

speaking of al jazeera, this just came out recently and there's a series about the US soon to follow. pretty good investigative reporting.

# ? Oct 10, 2017 20:54

Kim Jong Il: Aug 16, 2003

spaceships posted:

this is some wild poo poo right here

It's a fair analogy. That police force was widely compared to the KKK. They're falsely compared to the Israeli security services, when Hamas and similar supremacist groups much more closely fits these specific brutality incidents.

Police militarization in America has been escalating for decades. Rise of the Warrior Cop is the definitive history of this. To suggest that we needed any help at all to be fascist is silly.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 01:44

the old ceremony: Aug 1, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Under the vegetable posted:

i dont understand the mentality of bragging that your religion is about trying to trick and outsmart god

i like to know that the universe is smarter than i am

# ? Oct 11, 2017 04:46

spaceships: Aug 4, 2005; i love too dumptruck

guacamole aficionado

Kim Jong Il posted:

It's a fair analogy.

it isn't, it's disingenuous and ignorant

Kim Jong Il posted:

They're falsely compared to the Israeli security services, when Hamas and similar supremacist groups much more closely fits these specific brutality incidents.

the israeli security services serve at the behest of a brutal, hypermilitarized apartheid regime, they are per definition a "similar supremacist group," unless you refuse to acknowledge any abuse of power by occupation forces.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 07:48

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

Does HAMAS give people due process before executing them?

# ? Oct 11, 2017 09:22

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

A murderer wouldn't honor due process, so why should police have to honor due process if they think someone might be a murderer?

Heh take that, human rights :smug:

# ? Oct 11, 2017 09:40

420 Gank Mid: Dec 26, 2008; WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

hakimashou posted:

Does HAMAS give people due process before executing them?

HAMAS and the IDF sure are similarly awful organizations. Glad we can agree on that much. I wonder which of the two murders more people and is infinitely more successful at spreading misery.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 11:52

fool of sound: Oct 10, 2012

hakimashou posted:

Does HAMAS give people due process before executing them?

Rofl so you're a troll, right?

# ? Oct 11, 2017 15:00

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# ? May 15, 2024 06:23

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

Kim Jong Il posted:

It's a fair analogy. That police force was widely compared to the KKK. They're falsely compared to the Israeli security services, when Hamas and similar supremacist groups much more closely fits these specific brutality incidents.

It's probably dumb of me to even address this, but the kind of obvious problem with this analogy is that, within the context of the I/P situation as a whole, Hamas doesn't represent those with power/authority (like the police does in the US). This is a kind of vital aspect of what makes the police problematic, so an analogy that doesn't account for it is kind of worthless.

I feel like there was some poster a while back (I don't think it was you) who compared Jewish Israelis (in the context of the I/P situation) with black people in America (with Palestinians representing white people). That was funny.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 17:08

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