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I'm not sure if there's really much to his statement beyond a paraphrase of what was already in Humanae Vitae. Which is to say, another article shocked to discover that Pope Francis is, in fact, the head of the Catholic Church.
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Oct 8, 2017 00:49
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| # ? May 23, 2024 12:11 |
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Great podcast Thirteen and Senju. I think we had the aliens discussion in one of these threads. I disagree with Thirteen about the question of pirated DVDs. Theft is an injustice and requires restitution, and knowingly buying stolen goods constitutes theft as well. But theft admits of parvity of matter. If I steal a cookie, it is wrong, but not as wrong as stealing a car. Generally the line between grave matter and light matter has been drawn according to the value of a day's wages. Now, at least in the US, a DVD has less value than a day's wages, so it would be light matter and venial sin. Senju Kannon posted:"oh my god the church is stuck in the sixties" It is! Just look at the architecture and music! Chesterton said that if the Church ever gets married to an age she would be a widow in the next.
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Oct 8, 2017 01:45
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does greed factor into the gravity of theft? like a poor man robbing a bank seems less bad than a rich one (also in that scale of theft putting others in danger is something to be concerned about)
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Oct 8, 2017 01:54
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StashAugustine posted:does greed factor into the gravity of theft? like a poor man robbing a bank seems less bad than a rich one Yes, as well as where it is taken from. If I take $20 from Bill Gates, it does not hurt him that much but is still sinful. If I take $20 from a homeless man who needs that money for lunch, then it can be gravely sinful. If I take $20 from the collection plate at Church, it takes on the character of sacrilege. One of the great things the Church teaches about theft, is that if you are starving, stealing food is not theft. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36190557
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Oct 8, 2017 01:59
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Senju Kannon posted:my man francis taking a hard stance against 80s style radical feminism I've noticed this even from members of the clergy who are amenable to the progressive stance on LGBT issues (like the St Gallens Group.) Everyone seems stuck in the 80s; which, I guess would make sense since the bishops and cardinals themselves are about in their 80s :P But we're not really going to have constructive dialogue in the Church on LGBT issues while this generation is still in power. I wouldn't expect the average millenial to know about TERFers or second wave feminism or whatever much less a 70 year old bishop. e: also re: piracy I don't think it's a mortal sin. While theft is a grave matter I would hesitate to call piracy theft since you are not depriving anyone of access to that resource and that historically has been the defining line of what constitutes theft in moral theology.
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Oct 8, 2017 02:03
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Worthleast posted:I disagree with Thirteen about the question of pirated DVDs. Theft is an injustice and requires restitution, and knowingly buying stolen goods constitutes theft as well. But theft admits of parvity of matter. If I steal a cookie, it is wrong, but not as wrong as stealing a car. Generally the line between grave matter and light matter has been drawn according to the value of a day's wages. Now, at least in the US, a DVD has less value than a day's wages, so it would be light matter and venial sin. This is a very good point, and something I need to consider seriously.
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Oct 8, 2017 02:44
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Worthleast posted:Great podcast Thirteen and Senju. I think we had the aliens discussion in one of these threads. someone tell constantine The Phlegmatist posted:I've noticed this even from members of the clergy who are amenable to the progressive stance on LGBT issues (like the St Gallens Group.) Everyone seems stuck in the 80s; which, I guess would make sense since the bishops and cardinals themselves are about in their 80s :P But we're not really going to have constructive dialogue in the Church on LGBT issues while this generation is still in power. I wouldn't expect the average millenial to know about TERFers or second wave feminism or whatever much less a 70 year old bishop. don't count out the tumblr/twitter generation, people are getting woke also becoming nazis. but woke, too
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Oct 8, 2017 02:53
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chernobyl kinsman posted:also it is sincerely okay if not every religious institution adheres to progressive ideas about sexuality people are dying because of christianity's teachings on sexuality so no, it is not okay unless you think lynched gays in africa, the ukraine, and pretty much everywhere people were forced at gunpoint to convert is simply an agree to disagree thing, which is as morally repugnant as the belief that murdering lgbt people is god's will you cannot convince me that people who say even the most gladhanding "god doesn't like men to have sex with men" position doesn't have blood on its hands
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Oct 8, 2017 02:59
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i also think that every religion should teach only my personal beliefs
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Oct 8, 2017 04:46
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chernobyl kinsman posted:i also think that every religion should teach only my personal beliefs i think religions shouldn't support murdering people but scoreboard says i'm not in great company historically speaking
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Oct 8, 2017 04:49
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the Church doesn't support murdering anyone, that's why it opposes abortion 
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Oct 8, 2017 04:53
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hey i like this thread when its readable, please dont pick shitfights
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Oct 8, 2017 04:54
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WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT ABORTION PLEASE DON'T GET OUR THREAD GASSED.
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Oct 8, 2017 05:02
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Thirteen Orphans posted:WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT ABORTION PLEASE DON'T GET OUR THREAD GASSED. you guys don't let me have any fun real answer then: if people die because the church says what the church believes is true, the church should seek to put an end to that. the church should not stop saying what the church believes to be true, nor is it any way morally obligated to do so.
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Oct 8, 2017 05:04
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chernobyl kinsman posted:the Church doesn't support murdering anyone, that's why it opposes abortion but opposes ENDA, which would allow lgbt people to have workplace anti discrimination laws put in place. considering the fact that the majority of lgbt people are impoverished (also people of color) and considering trans women in particular have difficulty accessing documentation that could help prevent them from being outed during the job search process, it's almost like the church is implicitly condoning the economic subjugation of american lgbt people. not to mention their rhetoric which supports conversion therapy, an outdated and thoroughly debunked therapy that essentially tortures gay and trans children until they most likely kill themselves it's almost like there's structures in society that perpetuate violence upon vulnerable people and that the church condones these structures either through silence or support. if only there were people, preferably people of color, who outlined systematically these issues and addressed them to the church in some kind of theology of liberation StashAugustine posted:hey i like this thread when its readable, please dont pick shitfights sorry but these issues are kinda Important and i hate it when people avoid addressing the elephant in the room out of politeness. peace that's the absence of conflict and not the peace of justice martin luther king jr something something
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Oct 8, 2017 05:09
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Senju Kannon posted:but opposes ENDA, which would allow lgbt people to have workplace anti discrimination laws put in place. considering the fact that the majority of lgbt people are impoverished (also people of color) and considering trans women in particular have difficulty accessing documentation that could help prevent them from being outed during the job search process, it's almost like the church is implicitly condoning the economic subjugation of american lgbt people. crazy, almost like the church doesn't see the liberation and normalization of lgbt people as a desirable goal in the way that you do
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Oct 8, 2017 05:12
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chernobyl kinsman posted:you guys don't let me have any fun ...do you like, not care that people have killed themselves because they thought they were going to hell for being gay? or are you like... okay with that? with children being told they're going to hell unless they change, who upon finding that they can't kill themselves? the church teaches that people have same sex urges that can be subdued. this is empirically false. the church believes that according to natural law, same sex sexual behavior is unnatural. this is also empirically false. church teachings about sexuality are fundamentally flawed and lead people to kill themselves or others, or to sanctify the slow death that is systemic oppression. no amount of "well we should stop that" will change this. it is a feature, and has been since the biblical "man who lies with man should be put to death." full stop.
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Oct 8, 2017 05:15
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chernobyl kinsman posted:crazy, almost like the church doesn't see the liberation and normalization of lgbt people as a desirable goal in the way that you do yeah almost like they want us to die in the street like the aids ridden fags we are
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Oct 8, 2017 05:16
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i'm sorry i just don't find "the church should stop teaching that x is a sin because it causes emotional distress to people who believe themselves guilty of committing x sin" to be a compelling argument. it's not even an argument two people on opposite sides of the issue can really have, because you're presuming that the church's teaching on lgbt issues isn't intrinsically good, and someone defending those teachings would uh not agree with that.
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Oct 8, 2017 05:22
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Thirteen Orphans posted:WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT ABORTION PLEASE DON'T GET OUR THREAD GASSED. nah get a mod to change the thread background music to the Mortal Kombat theme and let's have at it imo i'm trans-positive cathleft raiden, extraordinary form only
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Oct 8, 2017 05:25
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chernobyl kinsman posted:i'm sorry i just don't find "the church should stop teaching that x is a sin because it causes emotional distress to people who believe themselves guilty of committing x sin" to be a compelling argument. it's not even an argument two people on opposite sides of the issue can really have, because you're presuming that the church's teaching on lgbt issues isn't intrinsically good, and someone defending those teachings would uh not agree with that. something intrinsically good wouldn't cause LITERAL CHILDREN TO BE TORTURED AND CAUSE THEM TO COMMIT SUICIDE my argument is "your beliefs kill people" and so far your argument is "it's worth it" you oppose abortion but don't oppose tormenting children into killing themselves. hope that fetus doesn't turn out gay, in the catholic church's ideal society they'd see some bad poo poo
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Oct 8, 2017 05:29
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Senju Kannon posted:something intrinsically good wouldn't cause LITERAL CHILDREN TO BE TORTURED AND CAUSE THEM TO COMMIT SUICIDE 1) we aren't consequentialists. 2) we're also not utilitarians. 3) those things are bad; no one should be tortured or commit suicide. however: chernobyl kinsman posted:if people die because the church says what the church believes is true, the church should seek to put an end to that. the church should not stop saying what the church believes to be true, nor is it any way morally obligated to do so. 4) again, you're begging the question by presuming the validity of your own ethical and meta-ethical framework, which brings us back to: chernobyl kinsman posted:i'm sorry i just don't find "the church should stop teaching that x is a sin because it causes emotional distress to people who believe themselves guilty of committing x sin" to be a compelling argument. it's not even an argument two people on opposite sides of the issue can really have, because you're presuming that the church's teaching on lgbt issues isn't intrinsically good, and someone defending those teachings would uh not agree with that.
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Oct 8, 2017 05:33
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chernobyl kinsman posted:i'm sorry i just don't find "the church should stop teaching that x is a sin because it causes emotional distress to people who believe themselves guilty of committing x sin" to be a compelling argument. it's not even an argument two people on opposite sides of the issue can really have, because you're presuming that the church's teaching on lgbt issues isn't intrinsically good, and someone defending those teachings would uh not agree with that. It causes a hell of a lot more than emotional distress, that's the point. Christian groups (I'm speaking about more than just Roman Catholics here) should preach love compassion and understanding of LGBT people as loudly (our louder, preferably) as they espouse their specific beliefs on LGBT issues. I respect the beliefs of churches and individuals, but the health and well-being of fellow humans and children of God should always come first. It's a matter of priorities, imo. If your first move is to defend the teachings and doctrine of your church instead of the lives, health, and dignity of human beings... that strikes me as deeply un-Christian. Note that I'm not accusing you or the Catholic Church of anything in particular here; I'm much more familiar with American Evangelicals in an LGBT context. LGBT people are victims of discrimination and violence around the world. Let's focus on that first?
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Oct 8, 2017 05:39
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The Phlegmatist posted:nah get a mod to change the thread background music to the Mortal Kombat theme and let's have at it imo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM4IE2rOHHw
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Oct 8, 2017 05:39
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Pellisworth posted:Christian groups (I'm speaking about more than just Roman Catholics here) should preach love compassion and understanding of LGBT people as loudly (our louder, preferably) as they espouse their specific beliefs on LGBT issues. sure, I agree. I'm just pushing the matter a bit hard here because I have no patience for arguments that the church ought to change its stance on x, y or z issue because of [consequentialist argument], and because senju is easy to get worked up.
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Oct 8, 2017 05:48
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i've read one million edward fesers and now i'm rd to fight
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Oct 8, 2017 05:49
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The Phlegmatist posted:i've read one million edward fesers and now i'm rd to fight i dunno who that is but it doesn't matter because SOLA SCRIPTURA baby i've got some theses and a printing press don't make me use em
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Oct 8, 2017 05:51
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i also don't know who that isPellisworth posted:i dunno who that is but it doesn't matter because SOLA SCRIPTURA baby speaking of, it's with a heavy heart that i announce that the prots are at it again 
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Oct 8, 2017 05:52
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How do you not know who Edward Feser is. Reading Feser is like the first step for arguing about Natural Law on the internet. Also "Pastor Mark Driscoll" lol his actual real twitter name should be "shamefully kicked out of two churches, so creepy even the Calvinists don't like me Pastor Mark Driscoll"
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Oct 8, 2017 05:59
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oh boy, there's a lot going on there (in addition to arguments over the nature of Mary): 1) Jesus turned out "okay" 2) implicit comparison of himself to Jesus
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Oct 8, 2017 06:03
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The Phlegmatist posted:arguing about Natural Law i haven't been doing that, though. i haven't even referenced the actual doctrinal defenses for the church's position. all i've been saying is that the church isn't morally obligated to adopt progressive sexual politics. hell, i haven't even condemned progressive sexual politics.
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Oct 8, 2017 06:06
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actual serial philanderer Pastor Mark Driscoll posted:The first thing to know about your penis is, that despite the way it may see, it is not your penis. Ultimately, God created you and it is his penis. You are simply borrowing it for a while.
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Oct 8, 2017 06:07
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i changed my mind im whatever kind of protestant this weirdo is now
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Oct 8, 2017 06:10
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I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger Traveling through this world of woe But there's no sickness, toil nor danger In that fair land to which I go I'm going there to see my father I'm going there no more to roam I am just going over Jordan I am just going over home I know dark clouds will gather round me I know my way is rough and steep But beau-teous fields lie just before me Where God's redeemed their vigils keep I'm going home to see my mother She said she'd meet me when I come I'm only going over Jordan I'm only going over home I'm just a going over home 
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Oct 8, 2017 06:14
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byDiILrNbM4
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Oct 8, 2017 06:26
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Mark Driscoll's book Real Marriage is a trip. God gives him a vision of his wife, who is now pregnant with his child, being sexually assaulted in high school and he threatens to leave her and his wife says it's okay if he wants to and then it about a hundred pages later he's talking about the exciting butt stuff they do.
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Oct 8, 2017 07:26
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I believe there is sexual morality, much of which like the unlawfulness of rape is broadly accepted. But I also have many questions in my prayers. On the dilemmas of sexual morality, I am happy to listen to as many perspectives as there are people. But personally, I cannot think I'm being open to life if I am ever on the other side of someone who is losing hope because of what someone else condemns in them. There is no need for the human heart to be as cold and as lifeless as stone. There is already plenty of that.
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Oct 8, 2017 08:24
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Holy gently caress chernobyl, there's a world of difference between "my church does not agree with your 'lifestyle' and reality, which is that your church has murdered millions of people through cultural propaganda, organized harassment and withholding health care. I guess it's cool that you have a time machine and got here from the thirties, but try to keep up.
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Oct 8, 2017 08:39
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“When I'm jerking off I'm actually giving God a hand job“ is one of the weirder takes I've read
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Oct 8, 2017 09:47
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I'll, uh, just drop this here. (I guess for the first time, I thought I'd posted it before but that was probably another thread.) It's an open letter from a former Mennonite pastor in his 90s, and the reason he's a former pastor is because he performed a wedding ceremony for his son and another man. He doesn't bear the church any ill will at all that I can see, but he's very clear that he doesn't see the rejection of (in this case) gay people as being compatible with the example set by Christ and by that set by leaders of the early church. It's one of the more inspiring things I've read in some time. docbeard fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Oct 8, 2017 |
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Oct 8, 2017 10:16
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