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You've probably taught me more about my country than any other single person, Cyrano. Thanks for all that!
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Oct 10, 2017 10:15
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I doubt very many naval aviators died in circumstances where disposing of the remains was necessary. They just never came back. So when something like this happened, I'd expect that they took the time to pay what respects they could, to honor all the others that died alone in the wrecks of their aircraft as well.
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Oct 10, 2017 10:24
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I got Eric Flints 1632 for tuppence at an antiquariat. What am I getting myself into?
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Oct 10, 2017 11:49
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Tias posted:I got Eric Flints 1632 for tuppence at an antiquariat. What am I getting myself into? It's gung-ho pro Democracy pro union propaganda from before 9/11. There's a hope and optimism to it that now no longer exists.
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Oct 10, 2017 12:34
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JcDent posted:That seems kinda... excessive during the wartime, both the writing off of the plane, and the ceremony. Maybe he was a guy they loved on the ship? They had plenty of extra planes (not specifically speaking on the carrier itself), that wouldn't have been an issue, but it didn't really look shot up in a particularly bad way so maybe it was a dying wish or something?  The wings don't fold automatically on landing. And yeah it looks like they were getting prints/identifiers
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Oct 10, 2017 12:54
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Tias posted:I got Eric Flints 1632 for tuppence at an antiquariat. What am I getting myself into? Mycroft Holmes posted:It's gung-ho pro Democracy pro union propaganda from before 9/11. There's a hope and optimism to it that now no longer exists. edit: "I just...care SO MUCH about the ordinary people of Sweden, guys!" *is Gustavus Adolphus* *drafts one guy out of every ten in the whole country, as well as Finns who don't even know whether there's a war on or not because they live in the loving Stone Age and nobody speaks German* *nobody comes back*
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Oct 10, 2017 12:56
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acw correspondence indicates "kick rear end" is a hundred years older than we thought http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2017/10/10/the_phrase_kick_ass_was_discovered_in_civil_war_correspondence.html i knew already that "wicked" for "cool" and "crib" for "home" are from the 1840s, but i didn't know about Private John B. Gregory and his desire to kick rear end.
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Oct 10, 2017 13:28
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Tias posted:I got Eric Flints 1632 for tuppence at an antiquariat. What am I getting myself into? Depends, I've tried to read it, but halfway through he had hosed up German history so bad I couldn't stand it anymore. If you hate Germany though, seeing it plundered and ravaged by Americans will probably be a lot of fun.
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Oct 10, 2017 13:41
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Mycroft Holmes posted:It's gung-ho pro Democracy pro union propaganda from before 9/11. There's a hope and optimism to it that now no longer exists. With a big old side order of USA #1 America is the best if I recall, which may or may not grate on you, particularly depending on whether you are from said USA.
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Oct 10, 2017 14:01
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I could have sworn I read a good post just yesterday talking about how Che Guevarra wrote a book on guerrilla warfare and how part of it was about taking over from the government to form a base of support, but now I can't find it. Was that from you good folk?
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Oct 10, 2017 14:08
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HEY GAIL posted:acw correspondence indicates "kick rear end" is a hundred years older than we thought I feel like that sentiment is mostly timeless, and without any actual academic background im going to state a direct corollary has been being spoken since tribal days.
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Oct 10, 2017 14:12
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JcDent posted:That seems kinda... excessive during the wartime, both the writing off of the plane, and the ceremony. Maybe he was a guy they loved on the ship? It is kind of hard for us to wrap our heads around how disposable combat aircraft (and engines, for that matter) were during WWII, especially for the US. Front line airfields and carriers had pretty limited ability to do serious repairs...basically anything past preventive maintenance or simple welds/patches/replacements were past squadron mechanics' capability. For land based aircraft they could be sent back to factories or depots for major repairs, but for carriers, if they couldn't take off safely, it made more sense to just push it over the side and bring a new aircraft on board. For comparison's sake: one factory (Grumman's Bethpage plant) producing one aircraft (the F6F) churned out more aircraft in a week than the entire F-22 production.
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Oct 10, 2017 14:13
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Kemper Boyd posted:Che Guevara wrote a manual on guerrilla warfare which is available in English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book)
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Oct 10, 2017 14:14
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JcDent posted:Did those wings fold automatically on landing? Later US planes like the Avenger had hydraulic folding mechanisms controlled by the pilot. Older planes like the Wildcat had to have their wings manually unlocked and folded by flight deck crewmembers. Check out this early WWII US training film for what that looks like (also it's cool): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfkwjU8k6W4
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Oct 10, 2017 14:32
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bewbies posted:It is kind of hard for us to wrap our heads around how disposable combat aircraft (and engines, for that matter) were during WWII, especially for the US. Front line airfields and carriers had pretty limited ability to do serious repairs...basically anything past preventive maintenance or simple welds/patches/replacements were past squadron mechanics' capability. For land based aircraft they could be sent back to factories or depots for major repairs, but for carriers, if they couldn't take off safely, it made more sense to just push it over the side and bring a new aircraft on board. Yeah. The other thing is that the film isn't one continuous reel. I'm betting there's a bit where a mechanic comes out, looks at the damage, and pronounces it a write off. According to the description the gunner and his position got mulched by a hit from 40mm AAA. It's very, very possible that there was major structural damage that just wasn't repairable with the limited facilities on a carrier. aphid_licker posted:You've probably taught me more about my country than any other single person, Cyrano. Thanks for all that! This just made my day. Thanks.
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Oct 10, 2017 14:37
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I don't know if using the super limited production run of F-22 is a good comparison for production rates. How would a carrier get new planes to replenish loses?
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Oct 10, 2017 15:00
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JcDent posted:How would a carrier get new planes to replenish loses? Fly them there. With drop tanks and in multiple legs if necessary though drop tanks were sort of a new thing at the time. But your carrier needs to go back to port sometime too so it should be in range of a friendly airbase. Failing that you could probably stick them on a ship but it's probably faster to fly them, they are self propelled after all. And they only have to go one way so they have double their base range anyway. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Oct 10, 2017 |
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Oct 10, 2017 15:05
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OwlFancier posted:Fly them there. With drop tanks and in multiple legs if necessary. Escorts carriers could carry them from land bases to the regular carriers.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:08
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Chillyrabbit posted:Escorts carriers could carry them from land bases to the regular carriers. Yeah or that, the US had a lot of carriers.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:08
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WoodrowSkillson posted:I feel like that sentiment is mostly timeless, and without any actual academic background im going to state a direct corollary has been being spoken since tribal days. Maybe its just butt stuff that's timeless. Half of the Canterbury Tales is people farting on each other and it's still funny today.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:09
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JcDent posted:I don't know if using the super limited production run of F-22 is a good comparison for production rates. Several ways. Either new planes are flown onto the carrier Either the carrier receives new planes while docked or carrier is given replacements by meeting up with another aircraft carrier or dedicated ferry ship
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Oct 10, 2017 15:19
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JcDent posted:I don't know if using the super limited production run of F-22 is a good comparison for production rates. Was just highlighting why airmen/sailors of the WWII era thought of their planes as so disposable, in contrast to modern militaries who put a huge emphasis on maintenance/repair. quote:How would a carrier get new planes to replenish loses? Demand for aircraft in both theaters caused the US to build a whole lot of specialized and or converted aircraft ferries. Sea transport was much preferred to flying them: the hours it took to fly an aircraft across the Pacific were close to the expected life of the engine, and the last thing a carrier skipper wanted to do was to have to overhaul every new plane that he received. Usually they'd be ferried to major depots (the biggest one in the Pacific was the Solomons) where they'd be assembled, painted, and flown to their respective carriers.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:27
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Cyrano4747 posted:Yeah. The other thing is that the film isn't one continuous reel. I'm betting there's a bit where a mechanic comes out, looks at the damage, and pronounces it a write off. According to the description the gunner and his position got mulched by a hit from 40mm AAA. It's very, very possible that there was major structural damage that just wasn't repairable with the limited facilities on a carrier. Thanks, that was a question I was going to ask. Though I have to wonder, was/is it common for US troops to scavenge and cannibalize parts from mission-killed vehicles? Or was the supply situation of the US forces sufficiently high that they'd just dump damaged goods entirely, lest there was a risk of introducing compromised components into their inventory.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:28
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Phobophilia posted:Thanks, that was a question I was going to ask. Though I have to wonder, was/is it common for US troops to scavenge and cannibalize parts from mission-killed vehicles? Or was the supply situation of the US forces sufficiently high that they'd just dump damaged goods entirely, lest there was a risk of introducing compromised components into their inventory. Depends on the situation. If you're low on parts/metal you'll cannibalize anything you can find, whether its just the guns and ammo or tail assemblies, wings, engines, etc. For example: Wake Island only had a limited number of aircraft, so anything you can salvage to keep the others up in the air to repel attackers is great. While you also have stuff like Old 666 which itself was not cannibalized due to being a "highly specialized and important" aircraft and was instead repaired and put back into action. Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Oct 10, 2017 |
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Oct 10, 2017 15:33
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Phobophilia posted:Thanks, that was a question I was going to ask. Though I have to wonder, was/is it common for US troops to scavenge and cannibalize parts from mission-killed vehicles? Or was the supply situation of the US forces sufficiently high that they'd just dump damaged goods entirely, lest there was a risk of introducing compromised components into their inventory. You have to keep in mind that there's a huge difference between a carrier and a land base as far as room to do poo poo goes. On a base? Yeah, strip that fucker for everything that still works. Where are you going to do that work on a carrier, though? At the very least it's going to eat up a chunk of your maintenance deck, and this ship was obviously in the middle of combat operations. I'm guessing someone made the call that it was better to just shove it in the drink and keep that space available for rearming aircraft and conducting the kind of minor repairs and maintenance needed to keep them flying. Salvaging an engine and whatever else you can get isn't worth it if it slows the ops tempo of the entire ship in a fight.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:56
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Libluini posted:Depends, I've tried to read it, but halfway through he had hosed up German history so bad I couldn't stand it anymore. If you hate Germany though, seeing it plundered and ravaged by Americans will probably be a lot of fun. If by ravaged you mean burning Spaniards and by plundered you mean spreading knowledge of germ theory and potatoes being awesome, then yeah sure. Are you sure you even read half of it?
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Oct 10, 2017 15:57
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Cyrano4747 posted:This just made my day. Thanks.  learning with friends is cool and good
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Oct 10, 2017 16:21
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WoodrowSkillson posted:I feel like that sentiment is mostly timeless, and without any actual academic background im going to state a direct corollary has been being spoken since tribal days. i am mildly disappointed that guy didn't use kickass as an adjective though
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Oct 10, 2017 16:22
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On second thought this question belongs in a different thread.
paragon1 fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Oct 10, 2017 |
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Oct 10, 2017 16:23
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bewbies posted:Demand for aircraft in both theaters caused the US to build a whole lot of specialized and or converted aircraft ferries. Sea transport was much preferred to flying them: the hours it took to fly an aircraft across the Pacific were close to the expected life of the engine, and the last thing a carrier skipper wanted to do was to have to overhaul every new plane that he received. How do the pilots shake-out in this plan? Are there like "dedicated ferry pilots" whose only jobs are to drive plans to assembly areas, or is the guy behind the stick also the one that takes it into combat?
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Oct 10, 2017 16:32
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gradenko_2000 posted:How do the pilots shake-out in this plan? Are there like "dedicated ferry pilots" whose only jobs are to drive plans to assembly areas, or is the guy behind the stick also the one that takes it into combat? Ferry pilots were a thing. More than a few of them were women.
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Oct 10, 2017 16:41
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bewbies posted:Usually they'd be ferried to major depots (the biggest one in the Pacific was the Solomons) where they'd be assembled, painted, and flown to their respective carriers. Was there a specific name for the depot? I'd like to google for pics of that, the largest logistics hub in the Pacific theatre has got to look insane.
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Oct 10, 2017 16:45
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gradenko_2000 posted:How do the pilots shake-out in this plan? Are there like "dedicated ferry pilots" whose only jobs are to drive plans to assembly areas, or is the guy behind the stick also the one that takes it into combat? Depends You had the WASPs (Woman's Airforce Service Pilots) who ferried planes to and from solely as ferry pilots. Then you have your standard replacement pilots who might fly the plane from a drop-off point like the Solomons to the aircraft carrier and become part of the squadron there. In the UK, you'd have combat pilots given rest, but you want them to keep flying/develop their skills so some (most?) would ferry planes to various airfields, sometimes as a group, and then are picked up by a RAF bus to go back to their HQ/barracks/etc. Once the pilots are back from their "leave" they would sometimes get a plane to ferry to an airfield and stay with the squadron. -Source: Mission Accomplished by Frank Mares (Good book, btw)
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Oct 10, 2017 16:47
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aphid_licker posted:Was there a specific name for the depot? I'd like to google for pics of that, the largest logistics hub in the Pacific theatre has got to look insane. don't quote me on this as this is off the top of my head, but I think the huge aviation supply base was on espiritu santo. i'd bet you can still see all of the big airfields built there, someone should take a look. logistics in the pacific in general were absolutely incredible...just about everything had to be built almost from scratch. also my godfather's wartime job was ferrying B-29s from the west coast to the marianas, which I suspect was only slightly less dangerous than flying actual combat missions in them
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Oct 10, 2017 17:00
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HEY GAIL posted:acw correspondence indicates "kick rear end" is a hundred years older than we thought And no wonder, since bubble gum won't even be invented for another 80 years
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Oct 10, 2017 17:02
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Trin Tragula posted:And no wonder, since bubble gum won't even be invented for another 80 years
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Oct 10, 2017 17:06
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paragon1 posted:If by ravaged you mean burning Spaniards and by plundered you mean spreading knowledge of germ theory and potatoes being awesome, then yeah sure. Are you sure you even read half of it? Nothing against burning Catholics, but the rest I hated the most. We didn't need this knowledge "gifted" to us from the Great Americans.
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Oct 10, 2017 17:11
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Libluini posted:Nothing against burning Catholics
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Oct 10, 2017 17:24
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aphid_licker posted:Was there a specific name for the depot? I'd like to google for pics of that, the largest logistics hub in the Pacific theatre has got to look insane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Materiel_Command#The_Air_Service_Command https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transport_Command#ACFC_Foreign_Wing "Fighter aircraft for the Ninth and Tenth Air Forces and for the American Volunteer Group in China were shipped by water to the west coast of Africa where they were assembled and flown overland to their destinations. And, while ferrying operations were increasing steadily, the air transport service in support of both ferrying and combat operations was enlarged and extended, albeit in piecemeal fashion. During the thirteen months of its existence, Ferrying Command had grown from an original staff of two officers and a civilian secretary to a strength of over 11,000 officers and enlisted men, in addition to its civilian employees and those of the civil air carriers operating under its supervision. As the name implies, ferrying had been its main job, and during the period its pilots ferried 13,595 aircraft to final domestic destinations, while 632 planes were delivered to foreign destinations under the supervision of the command." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Airfields_of_the_United_States_Army_Air_Forces_in_the_Pacific_Ocean_theatre_of_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucholz_Army_Airfield https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_Island_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmon_Air_Force_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaine_Des_Gaiacs_Airfield Top of list is USAAF airfields in the Pacific, other links are individual airfields that specifically mention being depots, or listing such ferrying units as operational.  Some maintenance being performed at Lingayen.
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Oct 10, 2017 17:29
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transport_Command#Overseas_Stations If you click on any of the routes, it brings up another wiki page of most/every possible stop/airfield along the designated route Clicking on the South Pacific route - SouthWest Pacific route 1945 has https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans_Kaisiepo_International_Airport which was apparently a logistics hub. Lots of stuff to check out though Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Oct 10, 2017 |
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Oct 10, 2017 17:37
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