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Neurosis posted:i think it is reasonable to have a problem with islam and even extrapolate some big adverse geopolitical events in a future setting caused by islam, but i haven't read olympos and illim so i don't know how out there he goes in suggesting muslims are categorically hosed in the brain and evil, which would obviously be a lot less reasonable. Muslims create a virus to kill all the Jews but it accidentally goes in reverse and kills everyone else. Muslims build a submarine with black hole missiles to destroy the Earth if the caliphate falls. Muslims cover the planet in robots programmed to kill Jews while screaming ‘kill the Jews’ in Arabic. The Cthulhu space cuttlefish ultimate evil is called “a 9/11 god” That’s before we even get to Flashback aka Secret Muslim Obama, or the short story where Dan Simmons meets his future self traveling back in time to warn how the ground zero mosque will usher in global sharia I wouldn’t post this if I didn’t think it was extremely good psyduck
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Oct 10, 2017 19:14
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Neurosis posted:i think it is reasonable to have a problem with islam and even extrapolate some big adverse geopolitical events in a future setting caused by islam no it isn't General Battuta posted:Muslims create a virus to kill all the Jews but it accidentally goes in reverse and kills everyone else. Muslims build a submarine with black hole missiles to destroy the Earth if the caliphate falls. Muslims cover the planet in robots programmed to kill Jews while screaming ‘kill the Jews’ in Arabic. The Cthulhu space cuttlefish ultimate evil is called “a 9/11 god” this guy seems like a dumb butthole imho Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Oct 10, 2017 |
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Oct 10, 2017 19:15
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Mel Mudkiper posted:no it isn't I also hate The Handmaid's Tale.
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Oct 10, 2017 19:53
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Syzygy Stardust posted:I also hate The Handmaid's Tale. This isn't as epic a comeback as you imagine but I am gonna let you try to figure out why first
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Oct 10, 2017 19:56
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Selachian posted:None of those are bad recommendations, but my own rec would be for Rhialto the Marvellous. Everyone should read Rhialto but I think it's best to get into Vance in vague chronological order so you can see how he matured as a writer, the Rhialto stories are pretty late in his career Coincidentally if you pick up The Dying Earth compendium it has stories spanning from the 50s through 80s, I read that first and now I love Jack Vance more than my own family
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Oct 10, 2017 20:23
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my bony fealty posted:Coincidentally if you pick up The Dying Earth compendium it has stories spanning from the 50s through 80s, I read that first and now I love Jack Vance more than my own family Yeah, The Dying Earth, the two Cugel novels and Rhialto are all sold in a single volume. Just go with that. I really like the Demon Princes as well, but yeah, The Star King isn't as good as the other four.
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Oct 10, 2017 20:36
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Megazver posted:Yeah, The Dying Earth, the two Cugel novels and Rhialto are all sold in a single volume. Just go with that. counterpoint: https://www.amazon.com/Jack-Vance-Treasury-Terry-Dowling/dp/1596060778 His best short fiction, which is where he really shone eddit oh poo poo MOON MOTH IN THE HOUSe http://www.unexploredworlds.com/RealPulp/htm/rpulp145.htm
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Oct 10, 2017 20:53
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:counterpoint: https://www.amazon.com/Jack-Vance-Treasury-Terry-Dowling/dp/1596060778 I've read this and I enjoyed but half of it is Dying Earth and a significant portion of the rest is, y'know, fifties science fiction. Still enjoyable, but perhaps a better read for someone who already likes the author.
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Oct 10, 2017 21:02
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Mel Mudkiper posted:no it isn't objectionable tenets in the text of islam, sectarian violence, repressive theocracies, and the fact it has already caused huge destabilising political events say it is but i hope you felt a little thrill at your own moral superiority as you wrote this. General Battuta posted:Muslims create a virus to kill all the Jews but it accidentally goes in reverse and kills everyone else. Muslims build a submarine with black hole missiles to destroy the Earth if the caliphate falls. Muslims cover the planet in robots programmed to kill Jews while screaming ‘kill the Jews’ in Arabic. The Cthulhu space cuttlefish ultimate evil is called “a 9/11 god” haha holy gently caress. given the general political leanings of SA i thought this might be overblown but it seems i was wrong
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Oct 11, 2017 00:08
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Neurosis posted:objectionable tenets in the text of islam, sectarian violence, repressive theocracies, and the fact it has already caused huge destabilising political events say it is but i hope you felt a little thrill at your own moral superiority as you wrote this. none of those are uniquely islam but its cool you can feel a little thrill at masking your ignorance behind mock social concern
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Oct 11, 2017 00:28
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General Battuta posted:Muslims create a virus to kill all the Jews but it accidentally goes in reverse and kills everyone else. Muslims build a submarine with black hole missiles to destroy the Earth if the caliphate falls. Muslims cover the planet in robots programmed to kill Jews while screaming ‘kill the Jews’ in Arabic. The Cthulhu space cuttlefish ultimate evil is called “a 9/11 god” I forgot the black hole incident that destroyed the earth in Ilium/Olympos was a Caliphate thing I imagine because there's always a black hole incident that destroys the earth in any dan simmons science fiction work & they run together after a point remembered the anti-jew virus and the superjihad sharia bio-robots though
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Oct 11, 2017 00:33
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General Battuta posted:Muslims create a virus to kill all the Jews but it accidentally goes in reverse and kills everyone else. Muslims build a submarine with black hole missiles to destroy the Earth if the caliphate falls. Muslims cover the planet in robots programmed to kill Jews while screaming ‘kill the Jews’ in Arabic. The Cthulhu space cuttlefish ultimate evil is called “a 9/11 god” I didn't read Flashback, but I was totally into Dan Simmons until the big reveal of the Illium/Olympos books. The whole Moravec story line was cool as beans, the re-imagining of the Illiad was definitely fun, but the whole Earth story line was a little boring. I seem to remember the whole underwater submarine scene being the point where I started thinking Simmons might have issues with Islam, and then I made the mistake of looking up his blog and seeing some of the really outlandish poo poo he was ranting about. I still like his books, but have been hesitant to read any of the newer stuff for fear that it will mess up my enjoyment of the Hyperion Cantos/Carrion Comfort/his early work.
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Oct 11, 2017 01:41
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i agree, the moravec robots were extremely cool and good.
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Oct 11, 2017 02:13
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edit: nm
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Oct 11, 2017 02:59
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Mel Mudkiper posted:none of those are uniquely islam but its cool you can feel a little thrill at masking your ignorance behind mock social concern That's your take here? It's wrong to write sci-fi where Islam is bad because Islam is not uniquely horrible? I was expecting some mewling about how it's "punching down," not whataboutism raised to a general principle.
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Oct 11, 2017 03:29
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Patrick Spens posted:That's your take here? It's wrong to write sci-fi where Islam is bad because Islam is not uniquely horrible? I was expecting some mewling about how it's "punching down," not whataboutism raised to a general principle. No you idiot it's wrong to say the issues with religious extremism in general are specifically Islam's problem.
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Oct 11, 2017 03:45
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Here I quoted the relevant islamophobia.Neurosis posted:objectionable tenets in the text of islam, sectarian violence, repressive theocracies, and the fact it has already caused huge destabilising political events say it is but i hope you felt a little thrill at your own moral superiority as you wrote this.
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Oct 11, 2017 03:47
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Internet Wizard posted:Here I quoted the relevant islamophobia. I would be interested in reading about these other religions that have adherents believing in large percentages tenets comparable to the belief that gays and adulterers should be killed, women are legally only half a man in property rights and weight of legal testimony, and that it was cool for their founder to marry a child; who engage in similar levels of internal and external sectarian violence; have repressive theocracies; and caused huge destabilizing political events in the last few centuries. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 11, 2017 04:38
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Syzygy Stardust posted:I would be interested in reading about these other religions that have adherents believing in large percentages tenets comparable to the belief that gays and adulterers should be killed, women are legally only half a man in property rights and weight of legal testimony, and that it was cool for their founder to marry a child; who engage in similar levels of internal and external sectarian violence; have repressive theocracies; and caused huge destabilizing political events in the last few centuries. You, uh, don't know much about history or religion, do you?
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Oct 11, 2017 04:54
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Syzygy Stardust posted:I would be interested in reading about these other religions that have adherents believing in large percentages tenets comparable to the belief that gays and adulterers should be killed, women are legally only half a man in property rights and weight of legal testimony, and that it was cool for their founder to marry a child; who engage in similar levels of internal and external sectarian violence; have repressive theocracies; and caused huge destabilizing political events in the last few centuries. those loving mormons
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Oct 11, 2017 04:57
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neongrey posted:You, uh, don't know much about history or religion, do you? I do. I also know the difference between history and current events.
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Oct 11, 2017 05:15
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Holy poo poo... go back to loving D&D with this stupid poo poo.
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Oct 11, 2017 05:16
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General Battuta posted:Muslims create a virus to kill all the Jews but it accidentally goes in reverse and kills everyone else. Muslims build a submarine with black hole missiles to destroy the Earth if the caliphate falls. Muslims cover the planet in robots programmed to kill Jews while screaming ‘kill the Jews’ in Arabic. The Cthulhu space cuttlefish ultimate evil is called “a 9/11 god” And you know the worst? It is not even a good story.
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Oct 11, 2017 05:19
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Internet Wizard posted:No you idiot it's wrong to say the issues with religious extremism in general are specifically Islam's problem. Literally no one here is saying this, and if you think someone ITT is you need to read better.
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Oct 11, 2017 05:25
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I think a rational poster can agree that there's nothing wrong with exploring the potential horrific outcome of any ideology as a story idea, AND that the only people likely to do so with regards to Islam nowadays are mouthbreathers like Dan Simmons who have so poisoned the well that this plus Sturgeon's Law in general means that it's pretty safe to throw any such post-9/11 genre exploration of the topic straight into the garbage.
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Oct 11, 2017 05:34
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General Battuta posted:Muslims create a virus to kill all the Jews but it accidentally goes in reverse and kills everyone else. Muslims build a submarine with black hole missiles to destroy the Earth if the caliphate falls. Muslims cover the planet in robots programmed to kill Jews while screaming ‘kill the Jews’ in Arabic. The Cthulhu space cuttlefish ultimate evil is called “a 9/11 god” I can't wait to play the new sci-fi expansion pack for Command & Conquer: Generals
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Oct 11, 2017 05:47
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Syzygy Stardust posted:I do. I also know the difference between history and current events. You are the one who mentioned the last few centuries, and I am not sure you are all that up on religiously motivated violence (etc) in the modern day either because major sects of pretty much every big one is involved in a hell of a lot of awful stuff somewhere in the world. This isn't even a 'lol Christians' thing mostly; there's huge amounts of Buddhist violence going on, eg, but that's not a condemnation of Buddhism.
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Oct 11, 2017 05:52
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Hey what are some SFF stories that do a good job exploring religion without making it into a caricature I thought former-goon author's City of Stairs was ok and used its invented religions as more than just 'plot device'
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Oct 11, 2017 06:47
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Sanderson's Elantris is a Bad Book but the priest character Hrathen allowed him to explore kinda interesting ideas about religion and faith, I thought
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Oct 11, 2017 07:21
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my bony fealty posted:Hey what are some SFF stories that do a good job exploring religion my bony fealty posted:without making it into a caricature The real issue here is people operating with the word "Islam" (or "Buddhism" or "Christianity") as a blanket term for a lot of bad poo poo done by a lot of bad people in (usually) a lot of bad regimes. And then you get the difference between religion being used as a reason or an excuse - and how can you tell? Straight-up pointing at something and saying "religion is responsible for this" is basically guaranteed to be bullshit if only on account of oversimplification. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Oct 11, 2017 |
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Oct 11, 2017 07:35
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my bony fealty posted:Hey what are some SFF stories that do a good job exploring religion without making it into a caricature Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow is good, especially if you're into Jesuits. Which you should be because they're cool. The novel fails at linguistics and xenobiology, but does a very good job of exploring the problem of evil, agnosticism and faith as well as teleology.
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Oct 11, 2017 07:35
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow is good, especially if you're into Jesuits. Which you should be because they're cool. The novel fails at linguistics and xenobiology, but does a very good job of exploring the problem of evil, agnosticism and faith as well as teleology. have been unable to think of this book seriously since reading someone here describe it as bigbird rapes someone for 200 pages.
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Oct 11, 2017 09:45
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Syzygy Stardust posted:I would be interested in reading about these other religions that have adherents believing in large percentages tenets comparable to the belief that gays and adulterers should be killed, women are legally only half a man in property rights and weight of legal testimony, and that it was cool for their founder to marry a child; who engage in similar levels of internal and external sectarian violence; have repressive theocracies; and caused huge destabilizing political events in the last few centuries. The third-most-recent US president launched an unprovoked invasion, killing 1.2 million people, because his advisors convinced him of its merits in scriptural terms. The current US vice-president followed in the footsteps of his hero, Reagan, by causing a localised HIV epidemic because he felt women and gay people deserved death. The current-most-likely next prime minister of the U.K. (assuming no general election before the Conservative leadership collapses) is from one side of a vicious sectarian conflict that has only recently simmered down (and which he will likely reignite), has done his level best to restrict the rights of women and gay people, and will try as hard as he can to plunge the country off the cliff it's teetering over and reduce it to an ancap dystopia because he's that rare thing, a Catholic who buys into the prosperity gospel. Doing horrifying poo poo because of religion is hardly exclusive to the perfidious Mussulman.
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Oct 11, 2017 10:03
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Neurosis posted:have been unable to think of this book seriously since reading someone here describe it as bigbird rapes someone for 200 pages. So, you don't like Sesame Street?
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Oct 11, 2017 10:17
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Darth Walrus posted:The third-most-recent US president launched an unprovoked invasion, killing 1.2 million people, because his advisors convinced him of its merits in scriptural terms. The current US vice-president followed in the footsteps of his hero, Reagan, by causing a localised HIV epidemic because he felt women and gay people deserved death. The current-most-likely next prime minister of the U.K. (assuming no general election before the Conservative leadership collapses) is from one side of a vicious sectarian conflict that has only recently simmered down (and which he will likely reignite), has done his level best to restrict the rights of women and gay people, and will try as hard as he can to plunge the country off the cliff it's teetering over and reduce it to an ancap dystopia because he's that rare thing, a Catholic who buys into the prosperity gospel. Doorknob Slobber posted:those loving mormons I understand the impulse here but yeah this is no longer about a book, so johnsonrod posted:Holy poo poo... go back to loving D&D with this stupid poo poo.
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Oct 11, 2017 10:23
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Xotl posted:I think a rational poster can agree that there's nothing wrong with exploring the potential horrific outcome of any ideology as a story idea, AND that the only people likely to do so with regards to Islam nowadays are mouthbreathers like Dan Simmons who have so poisoned the well that this plus Sturgeon's Law in general means that it's pretty safe to throw any such post-9/11 genre exploration of the topic straight into the garbage. Yeah, my main complaint is basically about emic vs. etic perspectives. It's not so much that certain religious groups are "protected" from criticism, its the nature of the criticism that concerns me. For example, Persepolis or Prisoner of Tehran are fantastic literary critiques of religious extremism in Islam. The key is that they are insider accounts of those within and under the influence of the social environment they are analyzing. It's not that you are forbidden from critique, its that a white guy from IL critiquing a religion he has no real experience or stake in is an exercise in casual racism for his peers built on the back of "othering" a different culture. A social critique of a culture you are not a part of is fangless at best and dehumanizing at worst. That is what concerns me. Hieronymous Alloy posted:I understand the impulse here but yeah this is no longer about a book, so My comment is specifically about the effective direction an author can take their perspective so hopefully this is within the boundaries of discussion
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Oct 11, 2017 12:24
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so no one is allowed to write on real world things outside their own experience in less than glowing terms. cool. ian mcdonald is the worst literary hate criminal of the last 50 years. but i'll stop, this is not going to stay out of d&d territory.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:47
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Neurosis posted:so no one is allowed to write on real world things outside their own experience in less than glowing terms. cool. ian mcdonald is the worst literary hate criminal of the last 50 years. That is an aggressive misinterpretation of the point
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Oct 11, 2017 12:53
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So, uhh, anybody read any good books lately
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Oct 11, 2017 12:59
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ElGroucho posted:So, uhh, anybody read any good books lately Groundties by Jane Fancher! It's very, very Cherryh-esque in that it's more about the people and less about the sci-fi. I'm enjoying this early concept of the internet, and the lurking hints of aliens in the background. I'm also reading Liegekiller by Christopher Hinz and it's... uh. It feels like the sci-fi equivalent of airport fiction? There's a killer on the loose - a pair of mind-linked assassins who are one being, and it's on the loose in a space colony. Dun dun dunnnn!
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Oct 11, 2017 13:02
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