Alt-Right: HA-HA-HA-HAGHOOCH

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > Alt-Right: HA-HA-HA-HAGHOOCH

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

Dreddout posted:

But I'm arguing that if the USSR or USA hadn't intervened the war would have likely stalled out eventually. Britain and Germany were in a weird situation where a land invasion by either party was infeasible.

If that situation had continued intermittently, I'd imagine a peace treaty would be signed and Germany would have been allowed to keep it's French puppet state.

Yeah I'm arguing the Allies don't give a poo poo about Poland in and of itself. If Germany had the foreknowledge of keeping a neutral Poland as a buffer state, I doubt the Soviets would have went out of their way to invade them through neutral Poland.

Admittedly, I don't know how much the ideal of lebensraum appealed to the average German. However, I assume the population would have been content with the reclaiming of old Germany, and if not, what were they gonna do? Vote the Nazis out of power?!

We could have easily seen a fascist central Europe survive well into the cold war, because the international community only really gave a poo poo when it was apparent that Germany had no intention of stopping at it's old borders or ethnically German lands.

The central issue here is how Poland remains neutral and independent for any significant length of time.

Hitler was so heavily invested into the idea of lebensraum that it's impossible for me to see how, once he was finished up in the west, that he wouldn't turn his eye towards Poland, even without the issue of Danzig. As was illustrated at the outbreak of hostilities, Poland was in no position to single-handedly resist Germany militarily and given that, I'm struggling to come up with a reason why Hitler wouldn't invade at the first opportunity.

Hitler didn't want or need a buffer state in Poland, and he certainly didn't fear a military conflict with the Soviet Union. Now, you do have a point about the Poles potentially surrendering Danzig peacefully and this changing the timetable of the war, but I don't see how that doesn't just push back the conflict between Germany and the Soviet Union.

In that scenario, whether the U.S. and England back the Soviets could be an open question. There definitely was a school of thought in both countries to let those two slug it out alone, then attack the "winner" fresh, but I think that we would have come in much as we did anyways, because the fundamental reasons haven't changed in the new scenario: Germany is still coming after Britain after they're done with the Soviet Union, and that doesn't go anywhere good for the U.S., and it's better for the U.S. to make Germany fight a war on two fronts.

If anything, it might put U.S. troops in France faster, since by that reckoning, the U.S. then wouldn't be fighting a war against Japan and could devote full resources to defeating Germany.

# ? Oct 10, 2017 21:47

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# ? May 13, 2024 22:51

C2C - 2.0: May 14, 2006; Dubs In The Key Of Life; Lipstick Apathy

Matthew Heimbach looks like he'd get winded trying to tie his shoes

# ? Oct 10, 2017 21:54

The Dipshit: Dec 21, 2005; by FactsAreUseless

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

this whole thing about idiots flopping around on the dirty-rear end floor of mcdonalds is excellent actually. we need a left-wing milo to go around triggering these people

N-TX

Is it at UNT? If this is at UTD, I might need to pm you to ask about some details.

# ? Oct 10, 2017 21:57

Wraith of J.O.I.: Jan 25, 2012

https://twitter.com/krangtnelson/status/917862115339264000
https://twitter.com/krangtnelson/status/917861386994245633

# ? Oct 10, 2017 22:36

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

The German Nazis were really the worst-case scenario (kinda making a no-poo poo statement but hear me out) because they were extremely murderous -- even to each other -- while also being not *so* murderous that it derailed their attempts at taking power.

The Nazis were not the most murderous of fascist movements of the era, at least murderous in an unrestrained sense. The most psychotic of them all was the Legion of the Archangel Michael in Romania, better known as the Iron Guard (the name specifically refers to the paramilitary wing of the party).

Blood-drinking rituals:

If that wasn't hosed up enough, the Legion combined racial nationalism -- and the belief that shedding blood was necessary to save the nation -- with an offshoot of Orthodox Christianity which held that taking life was a sin. So the Legion taught that killing other people and going to hell because of it was a necessary sacrifice for the greater cause.

Matthew Heimbach of the Traditionalist Workers Party today still rocks a Legion shirt.

I had never heard of this. Chilling

# ? Oct 10, 2017 22:47

Gringostar: Nov 12, 2016; Morbid Hound

ww2 hypotheticals about "what if the nazis did X" are dumb to peruse though because there was no way the nazis wouldn't always follow the same path they historically took since the reason why they took those paths were because they were nazis which you can't change

imo the only ww2 hypothetical worth pursuing is the one where japan attacks russia and not the us since that one is at least plausible since japan schooled them a few decades before hand along with there being fairly sizable oil fields in siberia that weren't that if they got through a few pacific russian cities were ripe for the taking

# ? Oct 10, 2017 22:49

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Gringostar posted:

ww2 hypotheticals about "what if the nazis did X" are dumb to peruse though because there was no way the nazis wouldn't always follow the same path they historically took since the reason why they took those paths were because they were nazis which you can't change

imo the only ww2 hypothetical worth pursuing is the one where japan attacks russia and not the us since that one is at least plausible since japan schooled them a few decades before hand along with there being fairly sizable oil fields in siberia that weren't that if they got through a few pacific russian cities were ripe for the taking

they did try it at Khalkin Gol and Zhukov wrecked them with combined arms. the Japanese realized they were way outclassed by the Red Army and pursued SE Asian expansion instead.

# ? Oct 10, 2017 23:06

Slim Jim Pickens: Jan 16, 2012

Japan did attack the Soviets, and they hosed it up in 1939 and decided against expanding North.

Not like the 5000km of Siberia is exactly easy to get through.

# ? Oct 10, 2017 23:08

Captain_Maclaine: Sep 30, 2001

Gringostar posted:

ww2 hypotheticals about "what if the nazis did X" are dumb to peruse though because there was no way the nazis wouldn't always follow the same path they historically took since the reason why they took those paths were because they were nazis which you can't change

imo the only ww2 hypothetical worth pursuing is the one where japan attacks russia and not the us since that one is at least plausible since japan schooled them a few decades before hand along with there being fairly sizable oil fields in siberia that weren't that if they got through a few pacific russian cities were ripe for the taking

Yeah, but then they tried again in 39 and Zhukov kicked their rear end up one wall and down the other, cementing a deep-seated fear of the Red Army well within Japan's high command (which correspondingly they didn't have for the US), and which was one of the (though certainly not the only) driving forces behind the 1941 neutrality pact.

# ? Oct 10, 2017 23:11

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Slim Jim Pickens posted:

Japan did attack the Soviets, and they hosed it up in 1939 and decided against expanding North.

Not like the 5000km of Siberia is exactly easy to get through.

plus if they did take Siberian territory there wasn't a labor force to exploit any of it, without having to ship up scores of Chinese.

# ? Oct 10, 2017 23:14

Dreddout: Oct 1, 2015; You must stay drunk on writing so reality cannot destroy you.

If Japan kept up with it's Siberian aggression, it's quite likely Japan would have become a Soviet Puppet state, rather than an American puppet.

Hell, if the Nukes hadn't been dropped, and a land war commenced. it's quite likely Japan would have been partitioned German style, between the Allies.

# ? Oct 10, 2017 23:21

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

The guarantee that Japan wouldn't attack Siberia again is what freed up the Soviets to ship their eastern divisions into the Battle of Moscow, which was arguably the most decisive point of the war.

# ? Oct 10, 2017 23:36

Slim Jim Pickens: Jan 16, 2012

Look its ok if alt history is your kink but its very stupid

# ? Oct 10, 2017 23:41

Gringostar: Nov 12, 2016; Morbid Hound

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

they did try it at Khalkin Gol and Zhukov wrecked them with combined arms. the Japanese realized they were way outclassed by the Red Army and pursued SE Asian expansion instead.

russia outnumbered them 2:1 in men, artillery, and air power; 4:1 in trucks; and over 6:1 in tanks yet lost more in every one of those categories during the battle including a massive amount of tanks considering how much of an advantage russia had over them

had japan matched the resources that russia had in mongolia (something japan was more than capable of doing in mid 39) and not literally telegraphed that they had no intention of escalating things along the border it probably would have ended up much like the russo-japanese war did

the SE asia expansion was also what led to the US placing heavy sanctions on japan to the point to where it made war with the us inevitable

the point being is that had japan actually sent more than like 2 divisions and not given away the game so that zhokov could move a much larger force of 5 divisions to counter them without fear of attack elsewhere that battle would have more than likely gone much differently which means no SE asia expansion, no us sanctions, and russia without a place to move their industry to once hitler invaded

# ? Oct 10, 2017 23:44

Elephant Ambush: Nov 13, 2012; ...We sholde spenden more time together. What sayest thou?; Nap Ghost

Worst derail. Make fun of Internet C.H.U.D.s please :tipshat:

# ? Oct 10, 2017 23:45

Waffle House: Oct 27, 2004; You follow the path
fitting into an infinite pattern.

Yours to manipulate, to destroy and rebuild.

Now, in the quantum moment
before the closure
when all become one.

One moment left.
One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are Destiny.

Slim Jim Pickens posted:

Look its ok if alt history is your kink but its very stupid

Personally I can't reach orgasm without at least three hours spent theorycrafting WW2 European Theater what-ifs.

Elephant Ambush posted:

Worst derail. Make fun of Internet C.H.U.D.s please

The CHUDs have evolved. Now they just edge-post pseudo-topical bullshit in hopes of derailing criticism!

# ? Oct 10, 2017 23:45

TehRedWheelbarrow: Mar 16, 2011; Fan of Britches

history is both cool and very good. :colbert:

# ? Oct 10, 2017 23:47

Slim Jim Pickens: Jan 16, 2012

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The guarantee that Japan wouldn't attack Siberia again is what freed up the Soviets to ship their eastern divisions into the Battle of Moscow, which was arguably the most decisive point of the war.

Barbarossa was unsustainable and losing at Moscow was the natural endpoint of their exhausted offensive. The majority soldiers at Moscow were just recently mobilized units from Central Russia, the Central Asian SSRs, and the Urals. Only a few divisions from the Far Eastern Front were transferred West, and a lot of them didn't go to Moscow.

# ? Oct 10, 2017 23:53

tower time: Jul 30, 2008

what if hitler seduced stalin and then they went to the nazi moon base for the honeymoon

# ? Oct 11, 2017 00:03

TehRedWheelbarrow: Mar 16, 2011; Fan of Britches

thats iron sky

# ? Oct 11, 2017 00:06

Gringostar: Nov 12, 2016; Morbid Hound

[quote="�tower time�" post="�477255105�"]
what if hitler seduced stalin and then they went to the nazi moon base for the honeymoon
[/quote]

lol if you think this didn't actually happen

they called it the molotov�ribbentrop trip

# ? Oct 11, 2017 00:06

tower time: Jul 30, 2008

Well in my version they are furries and there is mpreg. special guest writer Pick

# ? Oct 11, 2017 00:09

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Gringostar posted:

russia outnumbered them 2:1 in men, artillery, and air power; 4:1 in trucks; and over 6:1 in tanks yet lost more in every one of those categories during the battle including a massive amount of tanks considering how much of an advantage russia had over them

had japan matched the resources that russia had in mongolia (something japan was more than capable of doing in mid 39) and not literally telegraphed that they had no intention of escalating things along the border it probably would have ended up much like the russo-japanese war did

Japan wouldn't have had the capability to match the Soviet Union's resources without telegraphing their movements, and there's no conceivable situation where they could have held territory taken from the Red Army. Khalkin Gol wasn't even approved by Tokyo, so there wasn't even any kind of opportunity for there to be a logistical plan to pull that off. The Russo-Japanese war ended up the way it did because Russia was humiliated by the loss at Tsushima Straits where the naval loss was so massive that it inflamed the 1905 revolution and forced the Russians to sue for peace. That wasn't going to happen to the Soviet Union in Siberia, where they could easily give and retake territory unlike the loss at Port Arthur and Mukden in 1905. They also wouldn't have had the logistical problems the Russian army had in 1905, or foolishly commit to a naval mission into Japanese waters from halfway around the world.

If the Japanese had, hypothetically, overcommitted forces they still would have lost in the end.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 00:11

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

Gringostar posted:

russia outnumbered them 2:1 in men, artillery, and air power; 4:1 in trucks; and over 6:1 in tanks yet lost more in every one of those categories during the battle including a massive amount of tanks considering how much of an advantage russia had over them

had japan matched the resources that russia had in mongolia (something japan was more than capable of doing in mid 39) and not literally telegraphed that they had no intention of escalating things along the border it probably would have ended up much like the russo-japanese war did

the SE asia expansion was also what led to the US placing heavy sanctions on japan to the point to where it made war with the us inevitable

the point being is that had japan actually sent more than like 2 divisions and not given away the game so that zhokov could move a much larger force of 5 divisions to counter them without fear of attack elsewhere that battle would have more than likely gone much differently which means no SE asia expansion, no us sanctions, and russia without a place to move their industry to once hitler invaded

While you're right that Japan certainly could have put more into Khalkin Gol, it's hard to imagine how opening that front would have gone well for them, even assuming that it somehow causes the Soviet Union to collapse sometime around the Battle of Moscow. By that point, the U.S. was going to be involved somewhere on the ground, and if not fighting across the Pacific, then definitely on the ground with the British in SE Asia. The whole SE Asia theater of WWII tends to get overlooked, but Britain, China, Korea, etc. tied up a significant portion of the Japanese Army and even with the resources they would otherwise be spending fighting the U.S. advance across the Pacific, it's difficult to see how they would have been significant enough to force a decisive end to war there, and that's assuming that they somehow tolerate the U.S. possession of the Philippines, which even without Pearl Harbor would have been a significant enough to spark war.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 00:27

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Triangle Shirt Factotum posted:

Is it at UNT? If this is at UTD, I might need to pm you to ask about some details.

I don't think the guys doing it are students anywhere but are hitting up campuses all over the place. Feel free to pm though.

BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 02:29 on Oct 11, 2017

# ? Oct 11, 2017 00:31

Agean90: Jun 28, 2008

Also i cant see any japans push into soviet terriotry that doesnt end in losses in china from the redirection of men and supplies, followed by the force starving in the middle of nowhere when guerillas inevitably cut their supply lines.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 00:31

TehRedWheelbarrow: Mar 16, 2011; Fan of Britches

tower time posted:

Well in my version they are furries and there is mpreg. special guest writer Pick

# ? Oct 11, 2017 00:33

Gringostar: Nov 12, 2016; Morbid Hound

anyway, this should probably be moved to pyf history chat or something since it's about ww2 "what if's" and not about the alt right getting owned repeatedly

Gringostar has issued a correction as of 00:47 on Oct 11, 2017

# ? Oct 11, 2017 00:38

Gringostar: Nov 12, 2016; Morbid Hound

see above

Gringostar has issued a correction as of 00:51 on Oct 11, 2017

# ? Oct 11, 2017 00:45

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Gringostar posted:

first bold: lol

japan knew all but one of the movements of soviet forces at khalkin gol and continuously surprised soviet forces throughout the battle

second bold: that's basically the point I was making

japan actually throwing its weight behind something like khalkin gol instead of hamstringing it once it accidentally started would have made the battle go much differently given the losses each side suffered proportional to their strength

I agree with you about not being able to hold it long but realistically they would have had to last 18-24 months before hitler invades from the west which would be well within their power

They wouldn't have even lasted a year, my dude.

If the Japanese had committed to a full offensive in Siberia completely changes the calculus because - like I said - that kind of troop movement and mobilization would have been noticed and the Soviets would have mobilized a response. There isn't any reason to believe that any escalation by the Japanese of their commitment to Siberia wouldn't have been outmatched by the Soviets. If the 1:2 force strength at Khalkin Gol seems unfair, the entire Japanese Army was only 1/3 the size of the Red Army, and they were already committed to fighting a land war in China.

Gringostar posted:

anyway, this should probably be moved to pyf history chat or something since it's about ww2 "what if's" and not about the alt right getting owned repeatedly

In all of these what-if scenarios, the alt-right gets owned.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 00:53

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

Gringostar posted:

SE asia campaign started like a year after and I doubt they would have invaded when they would have had siberias resources

also the us only even started to warm up to getting involved in WW2 after they started their SE asia campaign and only because they were colonies of western european powers

Japan and China had been fighting since 1937 and that war was already stretching their army. The manpower demands of that war were enough to mean that they couldn't muster the personnel for an invasion of the Hawaiian islands, and if they lacked the manpower for that, it's difficult to imagine how they could pull enough resources to invade, conquer, then hold enough of Siberia to be worth their while.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 01:03

Grand Prize Winner: Feb 19, 2007

there is a pretty good military history thread which could use some new posters in a/t

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3785167&perpage=40&pagenumber=652

# ? Oct 11, 2017 02:21

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

The Rumble in the Toxically Masculine Jungle
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/10/09/dan-bilzerian-dakota-meyer-feud-over-las-vegas-shooting-intensifies.html

quote:

Dakota Meyer, a Medal of Honor recipient, took to social media last week to slam a clip posted by Instagram celebrity Dan Bilzerian that showed the moments when a gunman attacked the crowd at a Las Vegas concert, killing 59 people and injuring more than 500.

But Bilzerian fired back at Meyer, telling Fox News his critic is "stupid."

�I have video proof I wasn't running away," he said. "...Just think about how stupid this guy has to be for him to say he thinks people should stand their ground when there is a mass shooting.�

...

Meyer posted a video on Sunday in which he appeared to challenge Bilzerian to a fight.

"Why don't we handle this like men?" he says in the video addressed to Bilzerian.

During the video he added that Bilzerian should tell him "when and where" he'd like to come face to face. Meyer also claimed the social media star gave out the phone number of Meyer's wife, Bristol Palin. No currently available public posts on social media indicate that Bilzerian posted Palin�s information.

He said, �So I wake up this morning and I gotta tell you Dan, you wanted to get my attention? You got it baby, you got it. Here it is�. 'You wanna bring my family in this, you wanna put my wife in danger by putting her phone number out to people? You got your little friends trying to FaceTime her?� ...

It's interesting to note here that Fox News edited the quote where Dan Bilzerian called Meyer "retarded" to stupid.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 05:07