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I thought the implication was that it's a question of attitude rather than material wealth.
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Oct 12, 2017 10:30
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Wheat Loaf posted:Morrissey from the Smiths? I never read his books because I think he's a oval office. I've heard his autobiography is meant to be good, though. Yeah, who went straight onto Penguin Classics despite not being even close to a classic. I was much happier when I thought it was by David Morrisey from dodgy 90s sitcom Men Behaving Badly. I'd be really interested in seeing a BotL takedown of Morrisey or some similar dreadful literary fiction, if only to clearly delineate "literary" from "good"
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Oct 12, 2017 10:34
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Trauma Dog 3000 posted:now back to literary criticism consisting mostly of spitting on people below you But you have been doing that the whole time.
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Oct 12, 2017 10:35
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Wheat Loaf posted:I thought the implication was that it's a question of attitude rather than material wealth. Partly. Consider how Trauma Dog argues for the common man and against the bourgeois, but by 'common man' he means people fans of Wheel of Time or Harry Dresden and so on, and says that the existence of the bourgeois and class system is necessary. This is worse than snobbery: it's false populism. Remember how he specified that literary criticism attacked poor people for "enjoying" things - this is just the standard nerd criticism about how criticism steals fun away. I'm sure this can be related to RPO somehow. BravestOfTheLamps has a new favorite as of 10:41 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 10:38
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Yeah, who went straight onto Penguin Classics despite not being even close to a classic. I was much happier when I thought it was by David Morrisey from dodgy 90s sitcom Men Behaving Badly. I imagine the Penguin Classics badge has been put on worse things (granted, I'm saying that despite not having read Morrissey's books).
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Oct 12, 2017 10:41
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holy poo poo people, social not socioeconomic. There is a difference. Trauma Dog 3000 has a new favorite as of 10:51 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 10:41
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my favourite book is the torah
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Oct 12, 2017 10:45
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Trauma Dog 3000 posted:holy poo poo people, social not socioeconomic. There is a difference. What is the difference?
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Oct 12, 2017 10:48
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Wheat Loaf posted:I imagine the Penguin Classics badge has been put on worse things (granted, I'm saying that despite not having read Morrissey's books). Morrisey posted:At this, Eliza and Ezra rolled together into one giggling snowball of full-figured copulation, screaming and shouting as they playfully bit and pulled at each other in a dangerous and clamorous rollercoaster coil of sexually violent rotation with Eliza’s breasts barrel-rolled across Ezra’s howling mouth and the pained frenzy of his bulbous salutation extenuating his excitement as it whacked and smacked its way into every muscle of Eliza’s body except for the otherwise central zone
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Oct 12, 2017 10:50
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What is the difference? the only white kid in an all black kid is supposedly in a better economic position. He's still probably had multiple bones broken. BravestOfTheLamps posted:Partly. Consider how Trauma Dog argues for the common man and against the bourgeois, but by 'common man' he means people fans of Wheel of Time or Harry Dresden and so on, and says that the existence of the bourgeois and class system is necessary. This is worse than snobbery: it's false populism. Remember how he specified that literary criticism attacked poor people for "enjoying" things - this is just the standard nerd criticism about how criticism steals fun away. The problem with that kind of 'criticism' is that it is a pretty transparently a way to attack the people who enjoy the media. The actual criticisms range from meaningless accusations of racism (there was a black character; this is bad), sexism (there was a female character; this is bad) to misjudged criticism that can only come from a deliberate misreading of the text (the main character is a bourgeois rear end in a top hat with no problems, despite being an abused child living in a trailer park), or blatant retardation (the setting of the book is hopeless, and the characters don't try to make the world a better place. Apparently books should have disney messages in them). the intent of these reviews is to allow the readers to feel smugly superior to the types of people they imagine read the media being 'criticised' BravestOfTheLamps posted:Pexistence of the bourgeois and class system is necessary. This is worse than snobbery: it's false populism. Inevitability is not the same as necessity, as you are well aware.
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Oct 12, 2017 10:50
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Strom Cuzewon posted:<snip> That would be pretty good if it was meant to be a comedy.
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Oct 12, 2017 10:51
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Trauma Dog 3000 posted:or maybe I don't like communism. Trauma Dog 3000 posted:now back to literary criticism consisting mostly of spitting on people below you So literary criticism is no big deal, and we should be pretty chill about it?
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Oct 12, 2017 10:54
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Darth Walrus posted:So literary criticism is no big deal, and we should be pretty chill about it? You can just ignore most of it anyway if you aren't interested, after all.
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Oct 12, 2017 10:55
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Darth Walrus posted:So literary criticism is no big deal, and we should be pretty chill about it? Genocide is inevitable too, i would still consider it a pretty big deal
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Oct 12, 2017 10:59
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Trauma Dog 3000 posted:the only white kid in an all black kid is supposedly in a better economic position. He's still probably had multiple bones broken. You haven't answered what "social" actually means in contrast to "socioeconomic". Your argument is that vague "social" conditions trump "socioeconomic" conditions because black children can beat up a white child. Trauma Dog 3000 posted:The problem with that kind of 'criticism' is that it is a pretty transparently a way to attack the people who enjoy the media. The problem is clear: you haven't ever read literary criticism, and are imagining attacks on the character and integrity of people living in trailer parks. Trauma Dog 3000 posted:Inevitability [of the class system] is not the same as necessity, as you are well aware. Trauma Dog 3000 posted:Genocide is inevitable too, i would still consider it a pretty big deal These are immensely ideological statements. In your mind, the class system and genocide are inevitable, so all we can do is feel bad about how terrible they are because they're going to roll over us anyway. BravestOfTheLamps has a new favorite as of 11:06 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 11:02
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Trauma Dog 3000 posted:Genocide is inevitable too, i would still consider it a pretty big deal Man, there's some kinds of edgy teen nihilism you just have to sit back from and appreciate like a fine work of art. But not, you know, critically appreciate. That would be mean.
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Oct 12, 2017 11:05
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:imagining attacks on the character and integrity of people living in trailer parks So you would classify poor people who live on trailer parks are members of the bourgeois
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Oct 12, 2017 11:08
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Trauma Dog 3000 posted:So you would classify poor people who live on trailer parks are members of the bourgeois You seem to be concerned about literary critics slandering people who live in trailer parks. This isn't an actual criticism of snobbery, it's simply paranoia. No one here is attacking people who live in trailer parks through the medium of book reviews or literary magazines.
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Oct 12, 2017 11:09
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:These are immensely ideological statements. In your mind, the class system and genocide are inevitable, so all we can do is feel bad about how terrible they are because they're going to roll over us anyway. The class system is biologically ingrained see: every human civilisation ever, that video of the monkey taking berry out of the mouth of the lower status monkey
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Oct 12, 2017 11:10
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The problem is clear: you haven't ever read literary criticism, 
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Oct 12, 2017 11:13
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Wheat Loaf posted:That would be pretty good if it was meant to be a comedy. He seems to be missing her vagina and just bashing her all over with his dick, so I am leaning towards comedy, yeah.
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Oct 12, 2017 11:14
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:
That was an offsite RPO criticism and yes, there is a heavy theme of "white people can't be poor" in the bullshit these people write
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Oct 12, 2017 11:14
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Trauma Dog 3000 posted:The class system is biologically ingrained see: every human civilisation ever, that video of the monkey taking berry out of the mouth of the lower status monkey It's not so much class systems that are natural occurrences as it is hierarchies, of which class systems as we understand them are just one example.
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Oct 12, 2017 11:16
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Wheat Loaf posted:It's not so much class systems that are natural occurrences as it is hierarchies, of which class systems as we understand them are just one example. They're all awful for the people at the bottom
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Oct 12, 2017 11:18
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Trauma Dog 3000 posted:That was an offsite RPO criticism So what you're saying is that calling RPO racist, sexist, inspired by a strain of middle-class consumer culture, and horrendously bleak in its vision of the world... shows that literary criticism is bourgeois snobbery. lol
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Oct 12, 2017 11:18
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What is the difference? BravestOfTheLamps posted:The problem is clear: you haven't ever read literary criticism, and are imagining attacks on the character and integrity of people living in trailer parks.
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Oct 12, 2017 11:18
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See, rich people aren't allowed to want change because they don't know what it's like to be poor, and poor people aren't allowed to want change because they don't know what's good for them, which leaves... Huh..... Guess we'd better not change anything.
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Oct 12, 2017 11:19
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:So what you're saying is that calling RPO racist, sexist, inspired by a strain of middle-class consumer culture, and horrendously bleak in its vision of the world... shows that literary criticism is bourgeois snobbery. Have you ever read a criticism of The Road where it's bleakness is used as a justification to attack it's readers?
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Oct 12, 2017 11:20
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Tiggum posted:Social class is unrelated to money. Your mistake is that you've reduced the concept of "socioeconomic position" to "having more or less money than others". Thus the vague and meaningless opposition of "social" and "socioeconomic". Tiggum posted:When you sneer at Twilight or The Da Vinci Code or "genre fiction" you are using literary criticism as a proxy for looking down on lower class people. Twilight and The Da Vinci Code are works enjoyed by all levels of society. There is nothing intrinsically "lower class" (which lower class? Are they proletarian?) about them - they're simply popular. Like Trauma Dog you're advocating for a sort of false populism that denounces snobs for ruining people's enjoyment of popular books. And really, calling something "genre fiction" is insensitive? Trauma Dog 3000 posted:Have you ever read a criticism of The Road where it's bleakness is used as a justification to attack it's readers? How a book uses "bleakness" can be criticized quite easily, depending on how it conveys that bleakness and what message that in itself conveys. But your argument is that you imagined that the reviewer wanted a "Disney message" ("Apparently books should have disney messages in them"), and thus they are using literary criticism to attack poor people in trailer parks. BravestOfTheLamps has a new favorite as of 12:33 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 11:34
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Dabir posted:See, rich people aren't allowed to want change because they don't know what it's like to be poor, and poor people aren't allowed to want change because they don't know what's good for them, which leaves... Huh..... Guess we'd better not change anything. The middle class, which has historically been pretty consistent in the belief they are the only ones worth a drat. As this thread kind of proves.
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Oct 12, 2017 11:37
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TD3K: "The world is cruel and unjust." Also TD3K: "No, gently caress you, you can't do anything about that." Like, what's even the point of sharing that with us? Does your average grocery trip take several hours because you keep ranting at the cashier about the futility of existence?
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Oct 12, 2017 11:37
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Like, if you're just cruising for a suicide pact, McDowell already has me booked.
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Oct 12, 2017 11:55
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CharlestheHammer posted:The middle class, which has historically been pretty consistent in the belief they are the only ones worth a drat. As this thread kind of proves. The middle class are poor who think they're rich
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Oct 12, 2017 11:56
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So as far as I can tell, we got here because some people can't get over the existential angst of "I like this thing, but some people think it's of poor quality, but it can't be of poor quality, because I like it" and decided to turn this into an issue of class warfare? With a quick jab at race relations for seasoning.
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Oct 12, 2017 11:57
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People take hobbies - whether it's books or politics - too seriously.
Wheat Loaf has a new favorite as of 12:13 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 12:10
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Wheat Loaf posted:People take hobbies - whether it's books or politics - too seriously. One is, admittedly, slightly more likely to get you killed. Especially since e-books mean collapsing bookshelves are less of a threat.
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Oct 12, 2017 12:17
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PYF terrible book: No John, you are the bourgeois.
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Oct 12, 2017 12:36
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Wheat Loaf posted:I imagine the Penguin Classics badge has been put on worse things (granted, I'm saying that despite not having read Morrissey's books). It's good if you already are a big Morrissey fan.
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Oct 12, 2017 12:58
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von Braun posted:It's good if you already are a big Morrissey fan. Well, that's me out, then, because I like the Smiths in spite of Morrissey. 
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Oct 12, 2017 13:15
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Trauma Dog 3000 posted:The problem with that kind of 'criticism' is that it is a pretty transparently a way to attack the people who enjoy the media. The actual criticisms range from meaningless accusations of racism (there was a black character; this is bad), sexism (there was a female character; this is bad) to misjudged criticism that can only come from a deliberate misreading of the text (the main character is a bourgeois rear end in a top hat with no problems, despite being an abused child living in a trailer park), or blatant retardation (the setting of the book is hopeless, and the characters don't try to make the world a better place. Apparently books should have disney messages in them). this paragraph has so much to unpack, but I'm going to leave it right where it is and just note that you've actually managed to be worse at talking about books than Lamps, and that's quite an achievement. (remember that Lamps' actual objection to Banks, inspiring his occasional threadshitting on the subject, is not that it is space fiction, but [this page on] that his space fiction doesn't outline a revolutionary programme that gets us from the present day to his Utopia in sufficient clarity. worse yet, someone on the next page concurs that this is a good and valuable objection) e: although mudkiper may be even worse still divabot has a new favorite as of 13:33 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 13:15
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