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Trabisnikof posted:That might be true, but it is the ocean where 90%+ of the increase in energy stored occurred: Greenhouse gases don't violate physics.
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Oct 11, 2017 01:22
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I have also planted a number of trees, and let a big chunk of land go wild, which means about 30 new cherry trees and a shitload of brambles. Is the world saved yet?
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Oct 11, 2017 03:09
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Bunch of municipal workers were going around my neighborhood trimming trees. I yelled at them about global warming and they stormed off. So yeah, I may not have planted any trees but I definitely did save a few tree limbs. I think that adds up, right?
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Oct 11, 2017 03:44
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yaffle posted:I have also planted a number of trees, and let a big chunk of land go wild, which means about 30 new cherry trees and a shitload of brambles.  thank you all for planting trees
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Oct 11, 2017 04:47
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Hole the size of Lake Superior opens in the Antarctic ice sheet, hundreds of kilometers "inland".
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Oct 11, 2017 06:30
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Evil_Greven posted:Fundamental to those are the two laws I mentioned. Inbound energy = outbound energy. My dad says stuff like that, and it's pretty naive. I like to use an analogy: Imagine lying out in the middle an oval on a cold night. You have a blanket underneath you. you and the blanket are radiating X amount of energy. Now you put the blanket over you. Warmer now, aren't you? Are you and the blanket still radiating the same amount of energy into the night sky as you were previously? There's no mass change, just a re-ordering of the layers between the heat source and the cold. Eventually you'll be at the same temperature either way, given enough time, after you've died and stopped generating heat. Energy in = energy out, eventually. The carbon and methane that we're kicking up into the atmosphere used to be underneath us, is the blanket. When ultraviolet rays travel into our atmosphere they aren't absorbed by greenhouse gasses, but then they hit objects on the surface, transform the energy to infrared (which are absorbed by GG), then the process is actually akin to an internal heat source. The heat is 'generated' at our level, and being trapped in by the insulation that we're creating. Inbound energy = outbound energy, given enough time. But, given two objects the same starting temperature with different types of insulation, they can lose their heat at drastically different rates. And when heat is constantly being added, the cumulative effect can be significant, the core can rise up to a much higher temperature even as it radiates at the same rate as the less insulated object at the surface. That's my understanding of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, as applied to sleeping out in the cold, and to the earth.
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Oct 11, 2017 09:26
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Rime posted:Hole the size of Lake Superior opens in the Antarctic ice sheet, hundreds of kilometers "inland". apparently "pre-emptive" to blame climate change, but we know the truth. it is certain.
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Oct 11, 2017 11:57
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Goffer posted:Eventually. Inbound energy = outbound energy, ergo emissivity doesn't change. This is what Stefan-Boltzmann says. Nor am I saying the surface under said 'blanket' isn't warming (in fact I specifically mention it is). I'm saying it's at the cost of non-surface cooling of the atmosphere. Look at Venus - despite being closer to the Sun that the Earth, carbon dioxide freezes in its upper atmosphere - it gets below 100 Kelvin in a broad chunk of the atmosphere.
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Oct 11, 2017 14:40
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Evil_Greven posted:Fundamental to those are the two laws I mentioned. Inbound energy = outbound energy.
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Oct 11, 2017 16:30
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lol at modeling sea level rise when we don't even understand why those inland seas form or what their implications for overall shelf integrity are
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Oct 11, 2017 17:19
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the old ceremony posted:no but that chunk of land and all its animals are I stopped eating meat or dairy. win.
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Oct 11, 2017 17:24
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call to action posted:lol at modeling sea level rise when we don't even understand why those inland seas form or what their implications for overall shelf integrity are
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Oct 11, 2017 17:47
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VideoGameVet posted:I stopped eating meat or dairy. Means more for me. 
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Oct 11, 2017 18:53
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I'm pretty sure it's UFOs escaping the ice. the Thing is escaping?
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Oct 11, 2017 19:18
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forgot the dome maintenance at Zygote, too many additional mouths to feed
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Oct 11, 2017 21:21
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Inbound = outbound is only true if you have a stationary situation though? If you don't, any imbalance will be taken care off by increases or decreases in temperature of the mass in question. The post in question suggested emitted energy would increase as the surface warmed. The fact that the Earth's atmosphere as a whole is still about 254K is overlooked (or 255K depending where you look). The surface is the most important to us, of course (tl;dr we're already hosed), but it's important to understand the mechanisms involved here.
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Oct 11, 2017 22:36
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Evil_Greven posted:You are getting stuck on things that are irrelevant.
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Oct 12, 2017 15:36
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A Buttery Pastry posted:but that still seems to be ignoring the oceans, which are absorbing the vast majority of heating AFAIK? Yup, and absorbing large amounts of carbon in the form of carbonic acid. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 15:49
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CommieGIR posted:Yup, an absorbing large amounts of carbon in the form of carbonic acid.
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Oct 12, 2017 16:19
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So apparently Europe is about to be hit by its second hurricane ever
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Oct 12, 2017 19:26
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CommieGIR posted:Yup, and absorbing large amounts of carbon in the form of carbonic acid. Lifting the lysocline in the ocean is how you kick off the real good mass extinction pulses in earnest
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Oct 12, 2017 19:28
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Rex-Goliath posted:So apparently Europe is about to be hit by its second hurricane ever
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Oct 12, 2017 19:40
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A Buttery Pastry posted:But inbound = outbound only being true in a stationary situation seems to me to part of understanding the mechanisms involved? I mean, fair enough if the atmosphere as a whole is stationary and it's merely a question of distribution, but that still seems to be ignoring the oceans, which are absorbing the vast majority of heating AFAIK? The equation for Stefan-Boltzmann is E = σT^4 E = energy flux (W/m^2) σ = 5.67×10^-8 W/m^2 T = temperature (in Kelvin) What's not 'stationary' here was argued to be temperature. The temperature of the surface is going up, but it does so at the expense of the temperature away from the surface. Therefore, the temperature of the whole is 'stationary.' Incoming solar power averaged over the Earth's surface with its current albedo is ~240 W/m^2: ~240 W/m^2 = 5.67x10^-8 W/m^2 * T^4 T = (240 W/m^2 / 5.67x10^-8 W/m^2)^(1/4) T = ~255K Inbound = Outbound with no change, correct? Therefore, the Earth emits ~240 W/m^2 as well. But wait, you say - the Earth's surface is ~288K not ~255K: E = 5.67x10^-8 * (288K)^4 E = ~390 W/m^2 That's correct, and an increase in this temperature would increase the flux from the surface - but it's only true for the surface. The Earth emits only ~240 W/m^2 to space, confirmed by observations. Evil_Greven fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 19:48
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A Buttery Pastry posted:But inbound = outbound only being true in a stationary situation seems to me to part of understanding the mechanisms involved? I mean, fair enough if the atmosphere as a whole is stationary and it's merely a question of distribution, but that still seems to be ignoring the oceans, which are absorbing the vast majority of heating AFAIK? The temp moves quasistatically. Does this make sense?
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Oct 12, 2017 19:57
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Evil_Greven posted:It is a 'stationary situation.' Potato Salad posted:The temp moves quasistatically. Does this make sense?
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Oct 12, 2017 20:46
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The building envelope perspective is precisely the wrong way to look at it
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Oct 12, 2017 21:22
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Your building envelope conducts and radiates. It is in contact with what is effectively an infinite heat sink. Earth doesn't conduct heat flow to space. It only radiates, and climate temperature change is veeeeery slow. The right model for this is literally just a blackbody in a vacuum with an effective albedo around 0.3, half it's surface insolated at 1kw/m sq, and a coefficient in front of its blackbody radiation power output that is a blackbody power curve multiplied against atmospheric spectral absorption then integrated in frequency domain (bottom line, how is a blackbody power curve attenuated by the atmosphere at each wavelength?). Earth heats until radiation out is the same as radiation in, and the Earth's albedo and insulation change slowly enough that the system is almost by definition quasistatic, even considering the heat capacity of the oceans. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 21:37
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You have a good blackbody cavity held at 3K that does a decent job of mitigating harmonic effects. A sphere is suspended in the center and insulated in Magic Plastic that just flatly lets 100% of radiation in but also reflects half if any emitted blackbody radiation from the sphere back to the sphere. Is there steady temperature of the sphere 3K, or is it higher? What happens then when I shine a relatively bright laser that is allowed into the Magic Plastic covered sphere at a fraction of 0.5? 0.7? Expand on this model by making the magic plastic have an actual, variable absorption and reflection profile. Make the laser broadband.
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Oct 12, 2017 21:53
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nerds
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Oct 12, 2017 23:56
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Potato Salad posted:Your building envelope conducts and radiates. It is in contact with what is effectively an infinite heat sink.
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Oct 13, 2017 06:21
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the old ceremony posted:nerds
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Oct 13, 2017 19:37
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Hail the eighteenth Satan. Trump taps climate skeptic to lead White House environment office quote:Trump picked Kathleen Hartnett White to serve as a member, and eventually chairwoman, of the Council on Environmental Quality This is fine. Everything is fine.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:59
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Oct 13, 2017 21:41
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eNeMeE posted:Hail the eighteenth Satan. Maybe if we tell Trump that if he removes enough CO2 he can call it the greatest big league oxygenation event.
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Oct 13, 2017 21:54
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eNeMeE posted:Hail the eighteenth Satan. When humans die out our carbon footprint will decrease substantially.
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Oct 13, 2017 22:08
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Good news!quote:A new NASA study provides space-based evidence that Earth’s tropical regions were the cause of the largest annual increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration seen in at least 2,000 years. 
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Oct 14, 2017 00:11
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So that's the tropics and the arctic releasing gigatons more carbon year on year and we live everywhere else.
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Oct 14, 2017 19:58
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It's really amazing how fast everything in the ocean is going to be completely dead. And here I thought dying from famine would be the next generation's problem, not mine.
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Oct 14, 2017 23:06
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:It's really amazing how fast everything in the ocean is going to be completely dead. Soylent Green is PEEPLE!
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Oct 14, 2017 23:10
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Most of us will die of famine the rest will die of cannibalism related heart disease.
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Oct 14, 2017 23:49
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