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Another thing I noticed in my area, around this time, an empty store front would get ready to open up as one of those sign-up places with a few healthcare navigators. It still hasn't gotten ready. tax: 
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Oct 13, 2017 19:36
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The healthcare navigator budget was cut by 40%. Do not expect much assistance from this administration. If you have a silver plan I would say to expect your insurer to jack up rates and that you should carefully evaluate all your options with the expected increase to subsidies. It could also be that your insurer will use this opportunity to abandon the exchange in your area.
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Oct 13, 2017 19:46
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The way I see it, work isn't dignity, it's just work. What we find when we expand public benefits is that the arts flourish as people turn to hobbies and self expression; for example, the "British Invasion" in rock music happened largely because so many young British men had access to public benefits, so they could mess about in rock bands instead of working in the coal mines or whatever. There's nothing dignified about working in a coal seam when you could be the next John Lennon. I don't mean to imply that all labor is inherently great and that all safety nets are bad, but the clear implication of UBI in a system with more automation is that work will not just become optional, people will be shut out of work altogether. That's a problem in a few ways, one of which is that work gives people a role in society and a stake in its success. The person who builds houses or drives freight has more of a reason to feel connected to society than a person who exists as their own island, only existing as a being for an abstract government to clothe, feed and house. They contribute to others on a meaningful way through their work. The fruits of their labor can be viewed by society as a whole. Unless you become the next Bertrand Russell or John Lennon, that's not true for a person who isn't given the option to work. Finally, work gives people fora to interact with others and build community. Without anywhere to go for the vast majority of the year and with more automation of labor, people will interact with people outside of their immediate vicinity less and as a result grow more isolated. I agree in a strong social safety net, but UBI first and foremost is a device to pacify rather than build strength of community. It may be able to meet basic needs but people need more than that to function well. UBI is a copout to the worst instincts of the left. It would be far better to guarantee work with fair terms to each worker, with a guaranteed standard of living for people who for whatever reason can't work.
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Oct 13, 2017 19:47
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Volkerball posted:I really don't buy the idea that cynicism and detached idealism are the only two options regarding racial relations. Progress has been made and progress will continue to be made moving forward. Obviously it's not all gumdrops and roses. The nadir in the late 1800's was a huge step back for racial progress in the US, but at the end of the day, almost everything negative brought about by the nadir was cancelled out, and the status of African Americans in our society had never been higher afterwards. If that can be done in the face of the Jim Crow laws, and segregation, and the level of hatred present at that time, the relatively small hurdles activists face today don't stand much of a chance when you start looking at time in years and decades instead of weeks and months. I can definitely see the argument that we are in a nadir of our own right now, and that things are going backwards, but I also don't think that is sustainable, and we'll come to a time shortly where a lot more progress can be made. I think one could convincingly argue that changing explicitly racist laws is actually easier than fixing the effects of racism that aren't explicitly encoded. Making people in general treat minorities better is a heck of a lot harder than just ending Jim Crow laws. edit: Also, at least with regards to black people, there hasn't been much material improvement since the civil rights era.
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Oct 13, 2017 19:50
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Ceiling fan posted:You should definitely worry about your paperwork and how you are going to pay your premium next year. Your letter won't come for another few weeks. Open season starts in mid-November this year. Oh, and it will be shut down Sunday nights. "For maintenance." I thought it was Sunday mornings?
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Oct 13, 2017 19:51
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The thing is, if a politician actually does try to take steps to reduce the prison population by non-violent offenders out people out/focusing on rehabilitation, the instant that somebody who was let out does a crime, the attack ads are going to be all over them for causing this to happen somehow.
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Oct 13, 2017 19:58
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Instant Sunrise posted:The thing is, if a politician actually does try to take steps to reduce the prison population by non-violent offenders out people out/focusing on rehabilitation, the instant that somebody who was let out does a crime, the attack ads are going to be all over them for causing this to happen somehow.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io9KMSSEZ0Y
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Oct 13, 2017 20:00
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Not doing good stuff because you're scared of attack ads is literally the dumbest loving thing.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:06
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Democrazy posted:That's a problem in a few ways, one of which is that work gives people a role in society and a stake in its success. loving LMAO at this. Work sucks, and this idea that work gives you purpose is some major Protestant Work Ethic bullshit at it's finest. We should long for the days when most of society no longer has to work, not fear it. How "connected to society" is your average white collar worker these days? I had a job where I fixed iPads so salespeople could sell hair color to salons, I didn't loving feel "connected to society."
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Oct 13, 2017 20:06
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Democrazy posted:I agree in a strong social safety net, but UBI first and foremost is a device to pacify rather than build strength of community. It may be able to meet basic needs but people need more than that to function well. UBI is a copout to the worst instincts of the left. It would be far better to guarantee work with fair terms to each worker, with a guaranteed standard of living for people who for whatever reason can't work. Not the worst instincts. The *best *instincts - but without fully thinking out how it would affect different personality types, particularly those who gain purpose in life by being useful. Artists, hikers, hackers, writers, poets, performers - all these would love being able to practice their talents without worrying about money. But guys who gain life satisfaction by being strong, enduring, necessary - they would not be happy to be supported without being needed. This is where people mocked as "basement dwellers" come from - people who don't need to work because their family can support them, who end up doing nothing or even worse, becoming addicts, because without the need to work, they don't know what they want to do, so they end up doing nothing.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:06
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karthun posted:The Mercy class hospital ships are rather out of date. Lets replace them with 10 new ones. They will go from port to port around the world were needed and hopefully spread less STD's then the rest of the Navy. Democrazy posted:I agree in a strong social safety net, but UBI first and foremost is a device to pacify rather than build strength of community. It may be able to meet basic needs but people need more than that to function well. UBI is a copout to the worst instincts of the left. It would be far better to guarantee work with fair terms to each worker, with a guaranteed standard of living for people who for whatever reason can't work. Both ideas have had such horrible consequences and dramatic failures in the past that I'm not sure that either one is possible to implement in an ethical or effective manner, and can't endorse them.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:07
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We could make a lot of useful makework - like adequately staffed nursing homes, assistant teachers, people who visit and help the lonely elderly, people who make cities clean and beautiful, carers for the mentally ill who find it difficult to cope on their own. There's a lot of things that need doing and don't get done.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:09
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Subsidized daycare would be huge.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:10
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the US currently runs the largest make-work program in existence its just that the work made mostly involves pointless drills and base inspections
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Oct 13, 2017 20:13
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BarbarianElephant posted:I thought it was Sunday mornings? Yeah, I got mixed up on a couple of things. The shutdown is Sundays midnight to noon. There is also a shutdown scheduled the first night of the open enrollment season. Open enrollment runs from Nov 1st to Dec 15th.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:14
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Dead Reckoning posted:Just lol if you think Mil Medicine aren't loving each other and anyone else who shows interest on the regular. Oh they are, I just hope they would use more rubbers.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:17
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Anyone who thinks that work is necessary for dignity or whatever has been seriously brainwashed by capitalism and will need some intensive psychological treatment when late capitalism is finally in its death throes.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:19
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Democrazy posted:I don't mean to imply that all labor is inherently great and that all safety nets are bad, but the clear implication of UBI in a system with more automation is that work will not just become optional, people will be shut out of work altogether. That's a problem in a few ways, one of which is that work gives people a role in society and a stake in its success. The person who builds houses or drives freight has more of a reason to feel connected to society than a person who exists as their own island, only existing as a being for an abstract government to clothe, feed and house. They contribute to others on a meaningful way through their work. The fruits of their labor can be viewed by society as a whole. Unless you become the next Bertrand Russell or John Lennon, that's not true for a person who isn't given the option to work. Finally, work gives people fora to interact with others and build community. Without anywhere to go for the vast majority of the year and with more automation of labor, people will interact with people outside of their immediate vicinity less and as a result grow more isolated. I feel like this attitude is usually one that comes from people privileged enough to have a not-poo poo job. It's definitely a bad idea to limit the safety net to people who can't work. Ideally people who want to work would be given the opportunity to acquire a job, but people who don't want to work some poo poo job like retail or something should also be able to choose not to work at all.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:19
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DrNutt posted:Anyone who thinks that work is necessary for dignity or whatever has been seriously brainwashed by capitalism and will need some intensive psychological treatment when late capitalism is finally in its death throes. Or the type of rear end in a top hat like Paul Ryan that just thinks it's great for other people.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:21
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karthun posted:Oh they are, I just hope they would use more rubbers. They're medics, of course they practice safe sex. They always look up the lab results of anyone they're interested in loving.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:24
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BarbarianElephant posted:We could make a lot of useful makework - like adequately staffed nursing homes, assistant teachers, people who visit and help the lonely elderly, people who make cities clean and beautiful, carers for the mentally ill who find it difficult to cope on their own. There's a lot of things that need doing and don't get done. Radish posted:Subsidized daycare would be huge. Ytlaya posted:I feel like this attitude is usually one that comes from people privileged enough to have a not-poo poo job. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 20:26
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Dead Reckoning posted:Have you ever been to a nursing home? Or a mental hospital? People go into menial jobs there either because they want to advance to less menial jobs, or because they need the loving money. There are probably a few kind souls out there who would wipe asses, clean stomas, throw out their backs lifting flaccid people, risk assault from altered patients, and listen to unending demented screaming out of a sense of duty, but if you told every CNA and MHT that they would never have to touch feces or smell lung butter again, and could free up all their time to paint or go on nature walks or play Xbox or whatever in exchange for an extremely minor hit to their standard if living, I'd say 80 out of 100 are going to take that deal, and 19 out of the rest will expect promotion to a more prestigious, higher paying position to be forthcoming and will drop out if it looks like they won't get it. You'd need to pay them more, obviously. And all those unpleasant jobs would be a lot easier if there were double the number of necessary workers, instead of half at best.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:30
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Also we could start off by radically shortening the workweek, while keeping compensation the same (or at least livable). If you only had to wipe asses for 15-20 hours instead of 40-60, it would be a lot more bearable. If I could make my living off only working 20 hours a week, I'd be willing to do a lot more boring job. As a bonus, this improves employment numbers, too!
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Oct 13, 2017 20:34
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Instant Sunrise posted:The thing is, if a politician actually does try to take steps to reduce the prison population by non-violent offenders out people out/focusing on rehabilitation, the instant that somebody who was let out does a crime, the attack ads are going to be all over them for causing this to happen somehow. 1. lol 2. The GOP and Co. will attack anyone all the time regardless of what happens. 3. For reference, the civil rights movement of the 1960s was broadly unpopular, should Dems and Reps have cowered in fear and not done anything about it?
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Oct 13, 2017 20:34
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BarbarianElephant posted:You'd need to pay them more, obviously. And all those unpleasant jobs would be a lot easier if there were double the number of necessary workers, instead of half at best. Yeah for real. I am lucky enough to work for a non profit now, but I spent three years prior in retail hell, and no matter how good you were at your job, you were constantly asked to keep doing more, and with fewer labor hours and staff. Capitalism is a loving cancer and unsustainable at its current race to the bottom.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:36
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BarbarianElephant posted:You'd need to pay them more, obviously. And all those unpleasant jobs would be a lot easier if there were double the number of necessary workers, instead of half at best. You're looking for some magical point on the salary slider where enough people are willing to do a poo poo job that need is met, but not paying them so much that you create two tiers of citizens with notable lifestyle differences between those selected by the bureaucracy as suitable for labor and those not. And I'm not convinced that a central government is going to be able to reliably hit that sweet spot.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:39
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WampaLord posted:Also we could start off by radically shortening the workweek, while keeping compensation the same (or at least livable). Also this. I went from 40 hours a week full time retail  to a 30 hour a week non profit gig.Now, the drawback is that my benefits are gone, but I honestly do better by getting insurance off the exchange and financial aid through my insurer. At least until the Trumpocalypse grinds the ACA into dirt and I die from diabetes complications. But seriously, just an extra ten hours for free time in your week is amazing for your mental well being. In a better world, we'd be fighting for a 25 hour work week right now.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:39
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Radish posted:Subsidized daycare would be huge. It is hard to overstate this. On the one hand it's a transparent handout to a subset of the population, on the other hand do this immediately and right now the cost of daycare is ridiculous. Interestingly the Canadian province of Quebec implemented universal childcare in the fairly recent past. The result: quote:How much of the addition to subsidies from the childcare reform is recovered by the increase in net fiscal revenue stemming from so many more working women? One study figured out that some 40 per cent of the cost would be recovered by the increase in income and payroll taxes alone. Taking account of the long-term effects on all types of taxes, transfers and fiscal expenditures, colleagues from the University of Sherbrooke and I then found that the federal and provincial governments would get back much more than 100 per cent of the cost of the reform. In other words, the latter was, in fact, "paying for itself." ie it's probably cheaper for society as a whole compared to the status quo. The only reason not to do it is ideological.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:39
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WampaLord posted:Also we could start off by radically shortening the workweek, while keeping compensation the same (or at least livable). Or we can consider not splitting our labor down old class based hierarchies. Just because right now we've created a bunch of less rewarding jobs doesn't mean we have to do it that way. We can distribute these often less rewarding tasks amongst people while ensuring everyone gets access to tasks they find fulfilling.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:41
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Nocturtle posted:It is hard to overstate this. On the one hand it's a transparent handout to a subset of the population, on the other hand do this immediately and right now the cost of daycare is ridiculous It doesn't have to be a targeted handout. We can instead talk about guaranteeing daytime enrichment for all our children. We can frame this as benefits we can offer to everyone in our society because we value our people.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:44
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Nocturtle posted:It is hard to overstate this. On the one hand it's a transparent handout to a subset of the population, on the other hand do this immediately and right now the cost of daycare is ridiculous. Yep. And working in a daycare isn't exactly hellish if you like kids, it only sucks right now because you aren't paid enough to live on.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:46
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WampaLord posted:Also we could start off by radically shortening the workweek, while keeping compensation the same (or at least livable). Trabisnikof posted:Or we can consider not splitting our labor down old class based hierarchies. Just because right now we've created a bunch of less rewarding jobs doesn't mean we have to do it that way. We can distribute these often less rewarding tasks amongst people while ensuring everyone gets access to tasks they find fulfilling. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 20:47
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Dead Reckoning posted:So walk me through this. People work half as much, but still get paid the same. You've effectively doubled salaries and personnel expenses at a stroke. Who is picking up the tab, employers? The government? Lmao
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Oct 13, 2017 20:51
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Dead Reckoning posted:So walk me through this. People work half as much, but still get paid the same. You've effectively doubled salaries and personnel expenses at a stroke. Who is picking up the tab, employers? The government? Maybe we could pay people a decent amount of money? The money is there, unless you really think we can only afford to pay poverty level wages forever. Maybe we cut management salaries or reduce CEO compensation or not give out a dividend? I can't solve capitalism in one post, sorry.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:52
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WampaLord posted:Maybe we could pay people a decent amount of money? The money is there, unless you really think we can only afford to pay poverty level wages forever. Maybe the trillions of dollars being hoarded in offshore bank accounts could be appropriated and redistributed for starters. Maybe we guillotine some of these dragons sitting on their piles of gold and put the gold to good use at some point. Just spit balling here.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:55
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how are stomas cleaned in shadowrun, any goons know?
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Oct 13, 2017 21:01
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Drones. But if you have DocWagon Platinum, a team of mercenaries will drop in from your skylight and do it. DrNutt posted:Maybe the trillions of dollars being hoarded in offshore bank accounts could be appropriated and redistributed for starters. WampaLord posted:The money is there, unless you really think we can only afford to pay poverty level wages forever. Dead Reckoning posted:Observing that there is enough wealth in the economy to do what you want is like observing that we have enough steel in the world to build a ladder to the moon: pointless and naive. Other people get a say Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 21:03
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Dead Reckoning posted:Drones. But if you have DocWagon Platinum, a team of mercenaries will drop in from your skylight and do it. I mean, regardless there's not a single reason not to seize the vast majority of wealth from the wealthy (either directly or through very high wealth and labor/capital income taxes). The end result would be dramatically better for the vast majority of people, even if it isn't possible to give everyone the equivalent quality of life of someone making 60k/yr or whatever.
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Oct 13, 2017 21:18
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I guess all I can say is that I really learned to sympathize with people who have had work taken away from them when I was unemployed myself. I learned I would rather push carts or do menial temp work than live my life not doing anything for society at large, which is what I ended up doing. Even so, I get the argument that there's a lot of terrible, demeaning work out there. It's true that workers are routinely abused and degraded by their employers, but the answer to that is to reform those practices, pay people what they deserve and to strengthen the power of the individual worker through strong collective action. Let's not take the libertarian way out of just getting rid of the worker.Dead Reckoning posted:The problem with that idea is that automation appears poised to continue to decrease the number of humans needed to do meaningful work in order to support society relative to a given population. Either you have explicit make-work programs, with the day shift digging ditches and the night shift filling them in (while enjoying the camaraderie of honest labor, I guess), or you use population control to balance population at a level where you have enough people to run the systems that keep everyone flush and happy. This has the additional benefit of not spending lots of non-renewable resources and energy to support a population who cannot and are not ever expected to do anything to advance human development or support society or really do anything other than consume. Yeah, it's a hard and seemingly intractable problem. Without enough work to go around, the next few decades could be truly awful. However, without a shortage of labor, we as a society are allowed to explore necessary yet less profitable forms of employment for people thought impossible before, plus work shorter hours without suffering a loss of quality of life.
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Oct 13, 2017 21:20
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Democrazy posted:That's a problem in a few ways, one of which is that work gives people a role in society and a stake in its success. The person who builds houses or drives freight has more of a reason to feel connected to society than a person who exists as their own island, only existing as a being for an abstract government to clothe, feed and house. They contribute to others on a meaningful way through their work. The fruits of their labor can be viewed by society as a whole. Unless you become the next Bertrand Russell or John Lennon, that's not true for a person who isn't given the option to work. Bertrand Russell you say? Like Russell points out, there were (and still are) entire sedentary classes of the population who live off their wealth, never working a day, and they are not disconnected from society. In fact, we venerate them and put them in charge of it, for some bizarre reason. I suppose you're right in that wealthy people don't seem to have a stake in society's success though. Edit: unemployed people are miserable because society is built in such a way to degrade you and classify you as unworthy if you are not employed. Unemployment is treated like a moral disease instead of an economic phenomenon. We could have and should have gotten rid of that stigma a long time ago. In the old days, working debased you: nobility would never deign to work, that was for peasants. Sulphagnist fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 21:23
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