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Pirate Radar posted:Good to know. I still have a buddy working at a school in Hsinchu, dunno if there's been any trouble for him Ok I asked around my school. Starting next school year (2018-2019) all teachers in international schools will need a teaching cert. from another country, but not necessarily in the subject they are actually teaching. If people need to get quick teaching certificates, there are online programs to get one from Florida, and there is a much more expensive one in Hsinchu from TCNJ (The College of New Jersey.)
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Oct 12, 2017 23:19
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GoutPatrol posted:Ok I asked around my school. Starting next school year (2018-2019) all teachers in international schools will need a teaching cert. from another country, but not necessarily in the subject they are actually teaching. If people need to get quick teaching certificates, there are online programs to get one from Florida, and there is a much more expensive one in Hsinchu from TCNJ (The College of New Jersey.) International and public schools both require either a teaching certificate or a marriage visa(MARC/JFRV). It's been like that for a long while, however with an APRC you can occasionally get into those jobs because they'll just pay you off the books or under a different job title as you don't require a job for the purposes of your visa. It should be noted that a fair majority of the international school teaching gigs, while the pay is in the 70k range, you're teaching 30-40 kids in a classroom and working 7am to 5pm or 6pm, with the occasional weekend for promotional events and parents days etc. A lot of international schools, and some public schools, don't treat teachers very well at all and I don't mean they don't respect you, I mean they'll not adhere to the terms of the contract or arbitrarily decide to change your rate of pay, promise you bonuses then come up with reasons not to pay you the bonus; those kinds of things. You'll hear horror stories about buxibans but in the 9 years I've been here I've never had a situation where my school refused to pay me for hours that I worked or failed to live up to the terms of the contract, and I've had 2 positions where I fully expected that they might. Although Hess and Kojen are both fairly notorious for not giving you the 1 year bonus they promise unless you sign a new contract with them, which they start asking you about 4 months before your current one is set to expire and if they think you're going to leave they'll cut your hours and immediately start looking to replace you before you've necessarily decided. As mentioned the program in Hsinchu can be a way to get a teaching license while you're here. There are two programs I know about, one is the one in Hsinchu and the other is in Taipei(Framingham State University). Both give you the courses and requirements you'll need to take the Praxis, but the Hsinchu one will provide assistance in getting you through that as well while the Taipei one simply allows you to meet the requirements to take it. Both earn you a Masters in Education, but the Hsinchu program is designed to then push you through the Praxis as well. The program is not cheap either, it's in the neighborhood of $700USD per credit hour, with a total of 30 hours for whatever program you're in. Not to mention the program is in Hsinchu. I think the Framingham only runs you $5000-6000USD total but as noted it's not setup to provide you a teaching license, and there are additional steps you need to take to get one. Regarding work outside of teaching, it can be tough to find work in other industries as the rules for hiring are fairly similar to a lot of European countries in that you have to prove to the government that the foreigner is necessary for the job and the government has a limited view on what that entails. Popular, formerly unknown speakeasy, Ounce always had to pay their foreign bartenders under the table and send them on visa runs because the government doesn't consider bartending to be a position that requires skill or knowledge. The Beer and Cheese guys had a similar problem with their bartending situation and also hiring foreign wait staff / managers.
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Oct 13, 2017 00:52
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PaybackJack posted:Regarding work outside of teaching There's usually copy editor positions available at places like Taipei Times (bad work environment though I'm told by 2 people now, they like to let people go inside of a year, maybe to avoid paying a bonus? I dunno) or LiveABC, and if you understand computer and tech stuff ok, you can get a job doing technical writing, maybe some marketing copy writing too. The obstacles here are showing enough related job experience, which is like 2-3 years for a bachelors, though some companies may have a yearly arrangement with the government where this isn't required for hiring foreigners. What counts as "related" is kinda loose, so if you did something involving any kind of writing, that might be enough to count for technical writing experience, for example.
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Oct 13, 2017 01:46
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I wish employment opportunities were better in Taiwan, I'd love to move back. I do know a a non-zero number of like lawyers and programmers who live in Taipei or Gaoxiong and work remotely for mainland Chinese firms, which seems like a good deal. I have no idea how their visa/tax situation works out, though.
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Oct 13, 2017 02:40
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You should ask them
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Oct 13, 2017 02:46
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duckfarts posted:There's usually copy editor positions available at places like Taipei Times (bad work environment though I'm told by 2 people now, they like to let people go inside of a year, maybe to avoid paying a bonus? I dunno) or LiveABC, and if you understand computer and tech stuff ok, you can get a job doing technical writing, maybe some marketing copy writing too. The obstacles here are showing enough related job experience, which is like 2-3 years for a bachelors, though some companies may have a yearly arrangement with the government where this isn't required for hiring foreigners. What counts as "related" is kinda loose, so if you did something involving any kind of writing, that might be enough to count for technical writing experience, for example. Writing positions are usually fair game as they want native speakers who can write with a foreign style. I was referring more stuff that doesn't have as direct a language component. I should mention too that there are a fair number of companies that hire foreigners simply because they want a white person in their promotional work even if your day to day job is just working on projects in an office and being a peon. Those jobs can land you in the Taiwan office environment which most foreigners can't stand though so be warned.
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Oct 13, 2017 02:49
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Suddenly Bangkok international schools don't seem so bad. I have an ME and I get a teaching certification in Thailand on that alone. There's no chance of the contract not being respected. The only issue is that teachers are loving insane and it's Game of Thrones all the way down.
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Oct 13, 2017 10:52
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PaybackJack posted:You'll hear horror stories about buxibans but in the 9 years I've been here I've never had a situation where my school refused to pay me for hours that I worked or failed to live up to the terms of the contract, and I've had 2 positions where I fully expected that they might. Although Hess and Kojen are both fairly notorious for not giving you the 1 year bonus they promise unless you sign a new contract with them, which they start asking you about 4 months before your current one is set to expire and if they think you're going to leave they'll cut your hours and immediately start looking to replace you before you've necessarily decided. I've never heard of that happening at Hess; at least not a corporate branch. The Hess franchises can be pretty scummy, but corporate ones give you avenues to appeal lovely behavior to (and they're pretty decent about getting stuff fixed).
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Oct 14, 2017 04:23
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YF19pilot posted:I've never heard of that happening at Hess; at least not a corporate branch. The Hess franchises can be pretty scummy, but corporate ones give you avenues to appeal lovely behavior to (and they're pretty decent about getting stuff fixed). Yeah, it is kind of a crap shoot in how your branch operates. The first year I was here I switched from one Kojen branch to another. The first one, in Tianmu was run by a kid who was fast tracked into management so he could get some experience before going into the family business, and he kowtow to every parent's ridiculous demand and made all the employees miserable with forced weekend unpaid hours. I started off at 12 hours and never got more because a guy who spoke out against him was taking me under his wing as a newbie in Taiwan. A girl started a month after I did, and he gave her 18 hours right out of the gate. My friend told me good things about the Kojen branch in Banqiao so I switched there. It was night and day. This branch had also had a terrible manager, but the CTs all banded together and complained about the head office until they fired her. The new manager was the nice, shy, friendly lady who was a former CT and took the job for the extra pay but knew it was going to be poo poo because she had no power. So basically you did whatever you wanted within reason, and as long as there were no problems. She once very politely asked if we'd all go attend a 10am seminar at the main branch and we all politely told her 'No.' or said we would go and then didn't. And that's been my experience with all the chains here: it comes down to your individual branch. My roommate when I first came to Taiwan ended up at the Kojen central branch and spent years working there before getting married to a long time co-worker and moving back to the States to start a family. I will say if you can those jobs are usually better than franchise jobs because you'll hear about side work, editing books or designing curriculum, etc. First which can be a nice bit of extra income. Not sure if that's an opportunity that you have at your Hess branch but I know people that worked for Kojen, Shane and American Eagle and all got involved in those sort of projects because they ended up at the Corporate headquarters.
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Oct 14, 2017 12:47
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Jeoh posted:I appreciate the advice, especially the salary figures. Just not looking for an entry level position. Jeoh, you're a long time Korea goon, come jump ship! Five years ago I posted in this thread. Three years ago I traveled here for the first time. I did just under two years at a tech company thanks to the goon network and from that, I made good friendships with a lot Taiwanese. Thanks to my reputation and work ethic, I got a referral to a top tier multi-national company. I'm six months in and doing very well. I like Taiwan and my company a lot. I did six years in Korea and was well on my way to obtaining residency, but now I look back on that time as a waste and wish I had come here sooner. My friends in Korea say Koreans have mellowed out the last few years - as in, they are less stressed about achieving great jobs and education since the economy and political situation has gotten worse - but I feel Taiwanese are already mellow. People here have a work-life, personal-life balance and aren't as obsessed with fashion or material items. Some of my more cynical Taiwanese friends say that Taiwan is more into DIY/Maker movements because the average Taiwanese doesn't have the disposable income to buy the things they want, but I like that there's less of a 'keeping up with the Joneses' mindset here. People are just more real here, too. As Kendrick Lamar says "I’m so fuckin’ sick and tired of the Photoshop / Show me somethin’ natural like rear end with some stretch marks " - the Korean standard of beauty is completely hosed up. When my friends living in Korea visit Taiwan they can't believe how small the men's grooming sections are in drug stores. People just don't wear cosmetics or get tons of plastic surgery. Sure, you occasionally see an old dude with a 20 cm long white hair growing out of a mole, but I've started to admire that they just don't give a gently caress. I like it here, and weather lets you wear whatever the gently caress you want - sure I'm a corporate guy, sweating to death half the year, but most people don't judge you by your appearance. It's starting to get damp now, but as a guy from the midwest, I'm never cold here. I laugh when foreigners here start complaining about life in Taiwan - the 'problems' they put up with here would not even register in Korea. In Taiwan, when I'm sick the doctors apologize to me for having bad English, but when I was in Korea I'd get a lecture whenever I went to the doctor about why my TOPIK level 3 Korean wasn't good enough. In Korea, I was publically shamed for getting sick and was told I was a bad worker whenever I needed to stay home to get better or even ask to sit down. Here, I've had super mellow bosses who just want me to be healthy and have taken good care of me. In Korea, I'd have to lick my boss's balls in order to get the days I wanted off for vacation - days which were spelled out in my contract and scheduled as holiday months in advance. Here, I can take as much time off as I want. In Korea, my coworkers all hated each other's guts, would gossip and plot against each other for their own gain, and generally hated their jobs. Hell Chosun is real. You'd have to be very careful about your image, but it didn't matter because you'd always be a waygukin and you'd gently caress up by revealing something innocuous offhand. In Taiwan, the majority of my coworkers are genuine people who actually like helping each other out to get poo poo done. If they don't, they quit and find another job. In Korea, they're stuck sucking their bosses cock for 30 years, sometimes literally, because they only get one chance because of the hosed up school/work system. Again, that problem of image and cultural barrier is in ingrained in Korean people's heads. Here in Taiwan, I meet people and 20 minutes later they've completely opened up about their deepest pains and secrets, but in Korea, it takes six months because they're afraid you might judge them for being human. And Christ, it should go without saying that I never hear Taiwanese people saying "Taiwanese beef is the best. Taiwanese figure skating is the best. Taiwanese TV shows are the best. Luxgen makes the best cars. Bopomofo is the best writing system in the world. TSMC invented the smartphone.The HSR is the fastest and most efficient transportation system. Japan stole fermented cabbage from Taiwan. Don't buy anything Japanese. You can't trust Japanese because of blah, blah, blah." It's the complete loving opposite of the Korean hivemind. And this is the basic buy-in to Taiwan. The bonus for me, which is only valued by a couple goons and a handful of other foreigners I've met here, is tech. Other people love the beautiful environment, the artistic culture, the language, or what have you. In Daegu, one of my housemates was involved with an app startup, but the environment was nothing like here. Nearly everyone you bump into is working in tech. I can get into hardware and software and nerd out all day long. The amount cool poo poo I've learned by exposure - just by being in the vicinity of people working on every aspect of tech and the access to tools - is unreal. If you show an ounce of interest, people will tell you all about their jobs and teach you tons. I can go into an almost infinite number of directions - every level of software, hardware design, networking, QA, AI, manufacturing, or get a GMBA and get into management. And most Taiwanese I meet aren't defeatist about trying new endeavors. I'm extremely lucky - for me, I love this industry and country, plus there's the fact that I didn't have to go to China to do this. So, while the pay may not seem like a lot at first in Taiwan - there was a peak in Korea if you play things by the book. I didn't want to become a cliche like so many others who married a Korean woman and opened up an academy, started a blog, or tried to make it big on tv/media, or was just 'that weird old guy' teaching English for 30 years. Here, once you prove yourself, doors open. If you play things right, you won't be freaking out about your coworker shorting you 5 NT at lunch. If you have a decent skillset, are competent, ambitious, and know how to make friends, you can make a very good life here. My best advice: Don't buy a car. Don't buy a bike. Get the gently caress out of Korea. My history here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3470468&userid=124396 politicorific fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Oct 15, 2017 |
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Oct 15, 2017 14:47
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On the topic of "foreigners complaining about Taiwan", once I moved to Bangkok all of those gripes really were put into perspective. Taiwan certainly isn't perfect and venting from time to time is healthy, but by god nothing I saw in my time in Taiwan has come close at all to the insanity that is Southeast Asia.
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Oct 15, 2017 15:06
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Atlas Hugged posted:On the topic of "foreigners complaining about Taiwan", once I moved to Bangkok all of those gripes really were put into perspective. Taiwan certainly isn't perfect and venting from time to time is healthy, but by god nothing I saw in my time in Taiwan has come close at all to the insanity that is Southeast Asia. I have like a mental tier system for expat complaints versus niceness of environs which is generally as below, go up a tier if you make decent money (say like 60-70k USD per adult in the household, unless burdened by large debt for school etc, though obviously actual purchasing power varies greatly). Go down a tier if you're stuck low-end English teaching drudgery. S - A Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong B Korea, China - Major cities C China - Minor cities, SEA - Major cities D China - Bumfuq, India Anyone complaining about living somewhere S or A or circumstantially B has drat little to complain about. I've had guys I know who are single and make 300k+ USD living in swank parts of Tokyo complain about their life and I nod along, hell sometimes the complaints are specific and legitimate and being wealth doesn't shield you from everything in life, but sometimes I can't help but think suuuuck a diiiick you're living the dream. I know this wasn't directed at me but thanks for the perspective as I've heard more negative than anything else about Taiwan life and corporate culture in general, both in this thread and elsewhere. My gf is a doctor in Taiwan and because of how medical licensing works its waaaay easier for me to go to her than the other way around if we get married, but I've been worried not just about getting a job there but the culture and having a social life; very nice to hear of someone that's having a good time and comparing it positively with other places in the region.
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Oct 15, 2017 15:37
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politicorific posted:Jeoh, you're a long time Korea goon, come jump ship! Haha, I spent two months in Korea and haven't been back since... 2013. I guess the only people who leave Korea with a positive experience are the tourists. I've started applying to a few jobs on 104, we'll see what comes out of it. I guess your road (ESL -> Technical Writing -> Tech Job) is the most common way, but since I'm not a native English speaker it makes things a bit more complicated.
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Oct 15, 2017 15:51
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LimburgLimbo posted:I know this wasn't directed at me but thanks for the perspective as I've heard more negative than anything else about Taiwan life and corporate culture in general, both in this thread and elsewhere. My gf is a doctor in Taiwan and because of how medical licensing works its waaaay easier for me to go to her than the other way around if we get married, but I've been worried not just about getting a job there but the culture and having a social life; very nice to hear of someone that's having a good time and comparing it positively with other places in the region. I think the thing being stressed is that if you were competing for the type of job that a local could also get, then you'd be expected to fall into the normal corporate lifestyle of a Taiwanese salaryman at a wage comparable to a Taiwanese individual (the white-collar minimum threshold not withstanding). This is definitely a better lifestyle than in Korea or Japan, but you'd still expect long hours and unpaid weekend time and dealing with the bullshit "make-up" days when a national holiday lands on a Tuesday or Thursday and the government decides to make it four-day weekend but then you have to go in the following Saturday because the Monday or Friday wasn't really a holiday at all and you owe the company those hours. But the Taiwanese people I knew in corporate jobs weren't (regularly) being dragged around by their alcoholic bosses until 3am multiple nights a week. There really is an emphasis on going home to your family in Taiwanese culture that makes it feel kind of quaint compared to other parts of Asia. That isn't to say that those shenanigans don't go on, it's just that most of the time you end up at karaoke, the Taiwanese with you may not even drink. Singing is its own fun! As others have said though, if you're working in a "foreigner" position, then you'll have exceptions and allowances even when the Taiwanese people in the office are expected to work longer hours for less. But the jobs in Taiwan just don't typically pay as well as jobs in other countries in the region. This is normally balanced out by the fact that just living in Taiwan is pretty great. It's a great island with mostly great people. There certainly are well paying jobs to be had, but the much rarer to come by than in a place like Hong Kong or Tokyo or Singapore. But again you're not paying through the nose to sleep in a shoe box either. So if you want a mellow place with decent food, an acceptable cost of living, plenty of local sights and sounds, and access to the rest of the region, then Taiwan is it. Jeoh posted:Haha, I spent two months in Korea and haven't been back since... 2013. I guess the only people who leave Korea with a positive experience are the tourists. Not a native English speaker? Sir, have you considered an exciting ESL career in Southeast Asia?
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Oct 15, 2017 15:55
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LimburgLimbo posted:I have like a mental tier system for expat complaints versus niceness of environs which is generally as below, go up a tier if you make decent money (say like 60-70k USD per adult in the household, unless burdened by large debt for school etc, though obviously actual purchasing power varies greatly). Go down a tier if you're stuck low-end English teaching drudgery. Well Japan is now S because you just left 
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Oct 15, 2017 15:59
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caberham posted:Well Japan is now S because you just left S - A Japan, Taiwan, Singapore B Korea, China - Major cities C China - Minor cities, SEA - Major cities D China - Bumfuq, India E Hong Kong - Part of Communist China for 5000 years
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Oct 15, 2017 16:14
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It's hard to imagine that anywhere in China could be as good as Korea but to be fair I only visited there for a week. Seemed like a cheaper Japan but I dunno. What I can tell you is making good money with a pampered expat deal in Guangzhou was not as comfortable as being a struggling editor/translator in Hong Kong. Mainland China is just miserable, even at its best. But maybe it'll get better now that foreigners can get ID cards?
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Oct 15, 2017 21:56
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LimburgLimbo posted:I know this wasn't directed at me but thanks for the perspective as I've heard more negative than anything else about Taiwan life and corporate culture in general, both in this thread and elsewhere. My gf is a doctor in Taiwan and because of how medical licensing works its waaaay easier for me to go to her than the other way around if we get married, but I've been worried not just about getting a job there but the culture and having a social life; very nice to hear of someone that's having a good time and comparing it positively with other places in the region. Corp life generally depends on the corp unless you're full-on crunchy "i ain't lettin' the MAN tell me what to do gently caress YOUR RULES MAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNN" or something because then corp life isn't for you no matter what country you go to
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Oct 16, 2017 01:33
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Re: Atlas and Duckfarts Fortunately for me I've always been at an American firm in Japan and now Singapore which has been pretty good for me, and I actually enjoy the version of corporate life I've been living. I may need to see if I can move away from my industry however, towards something that is more flexible. I think finding good full-time employment in Taipei without massive sacrificing with my career is going to be very hard. I'm probably going to have to try to move to a role where I have some flexibility and can bounce around a bit.
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Oct 16, 2017 03:09
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How's Taiwan in December? I got from the OP that Taiwan isn't the best destination for touristy stuff but that's the beaches aren't a priority, though it would be great if the weather permitted to spend a few days just chilling. Is there enough stuff to explore for three weeks or so? I guess in the worst case HK or something else is within reach.
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Oct 23, 2017 14:23
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I dunno what the south is like in December, but up north it’s not very beachy weather that time of year. There’s other stuff to do in Taipei, though!
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Oct 23, 2017 14:26
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There's plenty to do for three weeks. My first trip here was for a month and I kept pretty busy. Heck I spent a month this summer in Taitung alone.
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Oct 23, 2017 16:58
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Instead of a beach, just go up to the hot springs.
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Oct 23, 2017 17:05
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I spent two weeks in Taiwan and could easily spend two more months exploring the country.
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Oct 23, 2017 17:17
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Cool, happy to hear that. It's not that I doubted that a country of 23m people wouldn't have stuff to do, but that comment threw me off a bit. Let's see if this works out in terms of time off work and reasonable tickets, I hope it does because I'm pretty pumped. In terms of weather, I did some research and apparently the average temperature in Taipei in December is the same as here in July and it's also the least rainy month. The south is even warmer supposedly so that should be more than good enough for me even (especially) if it's off-season.
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Oct 23, 2017 18:45
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I always felt December was pretty rainy. Maybe it's not monsoon or typhoon rain, but it's just sort of a constant drizzle.
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Oct 24, 2017 07:45
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Atlas Hugged posted:I always felt December was pretty rainy. Maybe it's not monsoon or typhoon rain, but it's just sort of a constant drizzle. same, though chinese new year is usually peak shittiness
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Oct 24, 2017 08:36
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duckfarts posted:same, though chinese new year is usually peak shittiness I figured it was usually like Aprilish when the plum rains roll around. Of course what we're saying is that winter sucks and is likely to be raining like a bitch on any given day. Of course, global warming, so who the gently caress even knows anymore.
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Oct 24, 2017 08:55
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Plum rains are when it rains in April. Winter rain is when it rains in December and January. Typhoons roll around in late summer, but otherwise you have the summer afternoon daily rain. Oh and don't forget about the fall rain in September and October.
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Oct 24, 2017 09:27
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Uh-huh. Well I already have the tickets reserved (mid-December to mid-January) and until midnight to either pay or let them go. But if winter really sucks in practice I might reconsider, because what I'm getting is that while it rains less but all the time, as opposed to occasional downpours?
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Oct 24, 2017 13:28
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You should definitely come. Taiwan is great and you'll have a blast. Just be forewarned that the weather might not cooperate. And you're right about the downpours. Summer is notorious for having incredibly heavy rain at 2pm every day for about half an hour. Winter is more a constant drip.
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Oct 24, 2017 13:31
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mobby_6kl posted:Uh-huh. Well I already have the tickets reserved (mid-December to mid-January) and until midnight to either pay or let them go. But if winter really sucks in practice I might reconsider, because what I'm getting is that while it rains less but all the time, as opposed to occasional downpours? i think the south is usually fine anyway if it's that big an issue
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Oct 25, 2017 03:55
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Chinese New Year sucks poo poo up north weather-wise. I spent a CNY down in Kenting one year though and it was loving rad. The weather was like summer but without all the sweaty wanting to kill yourself. Like December-January down south should be basically ideal, unless of course it does decide to be lovely raining but even then it'll probably still be nicer than up north. e: duckfarts posted:There's usually copy editor positions available at places like Taipei Times (bad work environment though I'm told by 2 people now, they like to let people go inside of a year, maybe to avoid paying a bonus? I dunno)
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Oct 25, 2017 07:45
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  Happy compass festival 2017 everyone
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Oct 28, 2017 13:30
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Is there anything interesting or worth doing in Hualien or is it a barren wasteland of culture.
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Nov 2, 2017 05:11
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Take a photo of yourself reading The Man with the Compound Eyes.
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Nov 2, 2017 06:25
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Hualien is cool and chill, but I don't know if there's much exciting to do, unless you want to check out some Aboriginal stuff. I enjoyed the day I spent there, but it might be better as a stop on the way to like Taitung or something. E: or if you want to go to Taroko Gorge actually
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Nov 2, 2017 06:43
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Gf is going to be doing an internship there for a year, so I’m likely to pop in and out and was wondering if there’s anything to do when I visit while she’s busy haha. Aboriginal stuff and nature sounds cool enough though so I’ll probably survive. On that note going to be in Taipei for a week from Monday; are there decent public gyms where I can lift? Was also looking at the local crossfit gyms but their websites suck rear end and also say nothing about visitors.
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Nov 2, 2017 07:17
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LimburgLimbo posted:Gf is going to be doing an internship there for a year, so I’m likely to pop in and out and was wondering if there’s anything to do when I visit while she’s busy haha. Aboriginal stuff and nature sounds cool enough though so I’ll probably survive. The public gyms often gate off the squat cage and bars unless you’re with a trainer, for sad but understandable reasons. Datong sports center is the only one I’ve seen where you can just walk up and use a bar, but it’s at a bench, no cage.
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Nov 2, 2017 07:29
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Pirate Radar posted:The public gyms often gate off the squat cage and bars unless you’re with a trainer, for sad but understandable reasons. Datong sports center is the only one I’ve seen where you can just walk up and use a bar, but it’s at a bench, no cage. You can do squats at the Zhongshan gym, and the one at Chiang Kai-Shek memorial hall. The only gated off areas I've seen are the weird mat room at CKS and the ladies only don't-look-at-my-butt area at same.
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Nov 2, 2017 07:34
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