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Angry Lobster posted:it's a great PR boost. For who ?
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Oct 17, 2017 09:26
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unpacked robinhood posted:For who ? For the pro-independence movement.
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Oct 17, 2017 09:31
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Fat Samurai posted:Came to post this. That's... still unbelievably undemocratic, lmao. The entire point of a protest is to create tension, because there's something you're not happy about. Would you defend the US for jailing BLM protestors? Plenty of tension there! "Orchestrated to create tension and further an illegal cause" is exactly lawspeak for "we don't like you There will always be a charge that tries to make it sound legitimate. That's how it works. And whichever way you cut it, jailing people who organize a peaceful protest - lol at "but they were keeping the police trapped!!!!" especially after all we saw on the 1st Oct - is unconscionable for any country claiming to be a democracy. (Also Trapero isn't in jail but he wasn't organising protests iirc. Also if your defence is "hey, they didn't jail everybody!" you need to find a better defense.) e: you know, I didn't support independence until 2012, and before that I considered myself Spanish all the way. I really do wish the best for it. And it breaks my heart to see what a farce Spanish democracy has become. Altivia fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 09:53
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Altivia posted:e: you know, I didn't support independence until 2012, and before that I considered myself Spanish all the way. I really do wish the best for it. And it breaks my heart to see what a farce Spanish democracy has become. Why only since 2012 though?
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Oct 17, 2017 10:11
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Aftermath of the Eurozone crisis...? 
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Oct 17, 2017 10:27
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Altivia posted:That's... still unbelievably undemocratic, lmao. The entire point of a protest is to create tension, because there's something you're not happy about. Would you defend the US for jailing BLM protestors? Plenty of tension there! I'm yet to defend the government in this affair, I think. Holy loving poo poo, with the similes to Erdogan, Franco, BLM, Kosovo and everyone else I'm really starting to thing that the independence movement wants blood on the streets. Altivia posted:e: you know, I didn't support independence until 2012, and before that I considered myself Spanish all the way. I really do wish the best for it. And it breaks my heart to see what a farce Spanish democracy has become. You know, up until 2012 I had participated in every possible anti-PP protest ever, but the Generalitat has managed to convince me that they are forever wrong in everything they say or do. Still don't like PP. Angry Lobster posted:Why only since 2012 though? Artur Mas decided that he didn't like where his approval ratings were going and decided to ride the independence train?
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Oct 17, 2017 10:46
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Altivia posted:e: you know, I didn't support independence until 2012, and before that I considered myself Spanish all the way. I really do wish the best for it. And it breaks my heart to see what a farce Spanish democracy has become. I agree with most of what you said but where do you get the idea that Catalan politicians aren't part of the same farce? Yeah that trial was politically motivated, and they've been detained specifically to get them out of the way before poo poo starts hitting the fan this Thursday. I'm not gonna defend that. But I'm also not gonna pretend Catalan politicians have any right to declare independence unilaterally, without support from their own people, breaking their own laws and Spain's. If they'd had the balls to call snap elections last week that'd be different. It'd show they actually give a gently caress about the democratic process even if Spain doesn't. Maybe they'd actually have a real majority now, unlike last time they tried (and ignored the results). But instead they went ahead and declared independence just because they could, with no regard for the people they're supposed to represent. gently caress that. I hate to say this but I'm pretty sure they're just trying to look like victims at this point. They know they can't do this right now, but so what? Their economy is gonna get hosed by all these companies leaving, which will just fuel the "Spain steals from us" narrative. The government's gonna be forced to take control and call snap elections, which they'll call antidemocratic and oppressive. They will be tried and fined/jailed for this, clearly a sign of fascism since they just wanted to be Free! They know they don't have majority support now, but if they (and Rajoy) keep fueling this fire with hatred, soon they will. Elman fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 10:49
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Altivia posted:There will always be a charge that tries to make it sound legitimate. That's how it works. And whichever way you cut it, jailing people who organize a peaceful protest - lol at "but they were keeping the police trapped!!!!" especially after all we saw on the 1st Oct - is unconscionable for any country claiming to be a democracy. It wasn't a peaceful protest. They destroyed a bunch of police cars. It is not as bad as Oct 1, but that doesn't make it peaceful. Why label it peaceful? What is with this pathological desire to label everything that Catalans do as peaceful? Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 11:31
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Pedro De Heredia posted:It wasn't a peaceful protest. They destroyed a bunch of police cars. A pathological desire to root for the underdog, even if the underdog is actually also an rear end in a top hat.
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Oct 17, 2017 11:36
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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In politics everybody is an rear end in a top hat, the ones who blindly believe them are just idiots.
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Oct 17, 2017 11:40
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Pedro De Heredia posted:It wasn't a peaceful protest. They destroyed a bunch of police cars. Oh No! Not my cop cars.
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Oct 17, 2017 12:07
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Vandalism is good and I wholeheartedly support the destruction of everything that is bought with taxpayer money.
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Oct 17, 2017 12:20
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thehoodie posted:So now that the election happened, what would you add to this analysis? From my outside and completely uninformed perspective (I didn't even know the election was happening), these results don't seem great. Is there any good side to this? You can look at it from a glass half full or glass half empty perspective. Half Full: - The Freedom Party did significantly worse than they were polling at the start of the year. - They aren't the largest party in Austria. - The People's Party's move to a more restrictive migrant policy that is more in-step with the opinions of the general population, and the subsequent movement of a large amount of voters from the Freedom Party to the People's Party, has shown there is an easy way to defeat the rise of the hard-right - Theres a decent chance the Freedom Party won't get into government if a Social Democrat/People's Party grand coalition is formed, so they will be kept away from the levers of power for a few more years at the least. - A Social Democrat/People's Party coalition will dilute the People's Party's worst right wing urges, resulting in an OK centre-ist government. Half Empty: - The Freedom Party got 26.5% of the vote, a huge share for a far right party in modern Europe - They're only behind the Social Democrats by the tiniest of margins - Theres also a decent chance the People's Party will form a coalition government with the Freedom Party, resulting in an overall very right wing government. I'm an optimist, so I'm going to go with the 'half full' outlook. I think if the Social Democrat / People's Party grand coalition is formed, and the government follows a migrant policy that corresponds with the wishes of the majority of the population (as the People's Party has recently been voicing), theres a good chance that the migrant issue will fade over the next four years. If that happens the Freedom Party will lose its main rallying cry for attracting more centre-ist voters and hopefully fade back down towards its 10-15% hard-right baseline.
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Oct 17, 2017 12:26
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Blut posted:- The People's Party's move to a more restrictive migrant policy that is more in-step with the opinions of the general population, and the subsequent movement of a large amount of voters from the Freedom Party to the People's Party, has shown there is an easy way to defeat the rise of the hard-right It's interesting that you include "the centre right wearing the clothes of the far right" as a positive.
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Oct 17, 2017 13:13
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Cat Mattress posted:Vandalism is good and I wholeheartedly support the destruction of everything that is bought with taxpayer money. Well, you could argue destruction of everything bought with taxpayer money isn't a crime, since you payed for it anyway. 
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Oct 17, 2017 13:38
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Libluini posted:Well, you could argue destruction of everything bought with taxpayer money isn't a crime, since you payed for it anyway. Brb, I'm gonna blow up a public hospital. (Not really.)
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Oct 17, 2017 14:25
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That actually hurts people though.
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Oct 17, 2017 14:39
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forkboy84 posted:It's interesting that you include "the centre right wearing the clothes of the far right" as a positive. I include the far-right losing 10%~ of Austrian voters to the centre-right in recent months as a distinct positive. There was a very real chance the Freedom Party was going to become the largest party in Austria by quite a decent margin until recently. Whether many posters in this thread like it or not, the previous migrant policy espoused by both the Social Democrats and the People's Party was not resonating with the majority of Austrians. Sebastian Kurz moving the People's Party to a more restrictive immigrant policy is probably the only thing that kept a Nazi apologist party from being the dominant party in government in Austria.
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Oct 17, 2017 15:12
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Even if you personally think it's wicked cool to destroy cop cars, someone being arrested for that obviously isn't a political prisoner.
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Oct 17, 2017 15:20
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Blut posted:I include the far-right losing 10%~ of Austrian voters to the centre-right in recent months as a distinct positive. There was a very real chance the Freedom Party was going to become the largest party in Austria by quite a decent margin until recently. Whether many posters in this thread like it or not, the previous migrant policy espoused by both the Social Democrats and the People's Party was not resonating with the majority of Austrians. Sebastian Kurz moving the People's Party to a more restrictive immigrant policy is probably the only thing that kept a Nazi apologist party from being the dominant party in government in Austria. Personally speaking I just don't see why a conservative party adopting far right policies is actually any different than a far right party. I don't hate far right parties based on their name, my issues are all about the policies. Who enacts them means gently caress all.
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Oct 17, 2017 17:05
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forkboy84 posted:Personally speaking I just don't see why a conservative party adopting far right policies is actually any different than a far right party. I don't hate far right parties based on their name, my issues are all about the policies. Who enacts them means gently caress all. Then you're being deliberately obtuse. Or are stupid. The two options are a) a traditional big tent centre-right party, with almost entirely mainstream policies, but with new anti migrant policies alongside them. Or b) a far-right party with actual far-right policy stances across the board that also has anti-migrant policies. Option a) is bad, but not completely insane. Option b) are essentially barely reformed nazis. The People's Party will be far better for both ordinary Austrians, and, ironically, migrants, than the Freedom Party would be. Its very much the lesser of two evils. This thread regularly throws "FASCIST!!" accusations at people who are in anyway right of centre, but the Freedom Party actually are honest-to-god fascists. Some Freedom Party highlights: - Originally led in the 1950s by Anton Reinthaller, a former Nazi minister and SS officer. He served until 1958, when he was replaced by another former SS officer, Friedrich Peter. Obersturmführer Peter served in an Einsatzgruppe during the war, he wasn't a paper pushing SS officer. He led the party until 1978. - The current party leader was arrested when in his 20s for taking part in a march organised by a banned neo-Nazi movement modeled on the Hitler Youth - In the week leading up to this week's poll the party suspended a member for saluting Hitler during a council meeting. If you don't see how having them be the largest party in the state would be worse than a traditional centre-right Christian Democrat aligned party occupying that spot then congrats, perhaps you've got fascist sympathies. Or else just don't understand party politics. Blut fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 17:37
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And I thought Germany was a bit too eager to rehabilitate former Nazis. Just like, give Austria to Hungary or something.
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Oct 17, 2017 18:05
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A Buttery Pastry posted:And I thought Germany was a bit too eager to rehabilitate former Nazis. Just like, give Austria to Hungary or something. uhm, I don't know what that would solve.
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Oct 17, 2017 18:07
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GaussianCopula posted:uhm, I don't know what that would solve. Solve? This is European politics, the goal isn't to 'solve' anything!
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Oct 17, 2017 18:10
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GaussianCopula posted:uhm, I don't know what that would solve.
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Oct 17, 2017 18:16
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GaussianCopula posted:uhm, I don't know what that would solve. I believe it is called an overflow so they will wrap back to zero.
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Oct 17, 2017 18:18
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A Buttery Pastry posted:We need to reset both of them to the last functional version, the post-1900 versions are clearly bugged. When I think "functional" I think Austro-Hungarian empire.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:14
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Orange Devil posted:When I think "functional" I think Austro-Hungarian empire. Let's go back even earlier then, and give them both to Spain.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:33
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Cat Mattress posted:Let's go back even earlier then, and give them both to Spain. Just let's go back even further and declare the Euro-Roman Empire.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:43
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Angry Lobster posted:Just let's go back even further and declare the Euro-Roman Empire.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:46
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Angry Lobster posted:Just let's go back even further and declare the Euro-Roman Empire. A Buttery Pastry posted:Just as long as it only includes former Romans. 
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Oct 17, 2017 21:35
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This is going to end in the next Finno-Korean Hyperwar.
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Oct 18, 2017 04:34
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So what's going on it Cataland? When's direct rule going to be imposed?
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Oct 18, 2017 23:56
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icantfindaname posted:So what's going on it Cataland? When's direct rule going to be imposed? Tomorrow, probably. It's not gonna be pretty.
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Oct 18, 2017 23:58
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Is there a live feed? I got the popcorn ready.
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Oct 19, 2017 09:09
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BabyFur Denny posted:Is there a live feed? I got the popcorn ready. Puidgemont sent a letter saying there was no declaration of independence, don't expect anything to happen today. Update: https://twitter.com/balldeborah/status/920928639377661953 GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Oct 19, 2017 |
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Oct 19, 2017 09:11
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GaussianCopula posted:Puidgemont sent a letter saying there was no declaration of independence, don't expect anything to happen today. I don't think he did, he just said the same he's been saying all along. Basically right now there's a stalemate, Puigdemont is saying "we'll declare independence for real if you try to take control of Catalonia", Rajoy is saying "we'll take control of Catalonia if you declare independence". But they can't just leave it at that since the implication is they'll declare independence anyway if Spain refuses to negotiate. That said, the PP and PSOE have said they're willing to let this thing go if he calls snap elections. They obviously don't think the independentists have majority support and their solution is to prove it through voting (who'd have thunk?). Puigdemont can do it himself or they'll take control and do it for him, but it's gonna happen. I mean their worst case scenario is that they're wrong and then nothing changes. I'm pretty sure Puigdemont doesn't want that, I mean the very first paragraph of his letter is nothing but him trying to justify himself. "A large percentage of the Catalan people voted for independence, more than the ones that voted for Brexit". That's obviously bullshit cause it wasn't a fair poll (people who were against the voted refused to take part in it cause that'd mean giving it legitimacy). Plus you know, it's not actually true, since their referendum had 42% turnout while Brexit's had 72%. The thing is he knows last time the Catalan people held a real vote about this (2015) most of them didn't want independence, he's gonna keep showing off his bullshit 90% Yes referendum results cause he can't risk giving people a real chance to vote. At any rate, things will move slow cause the government doesn't want to drop the hammer and would rather let Puigdemont surrender and call snap elections. I don't think that's gonna happen though, Puigdemont's not gonna risk destroying his movement's credibility when he can just do nothing and make Spain look bad. Either way we're headed for Catalan elections, and their outcome will make a pretty big difference either way. Things might get ugly if Spain takes control though. They're still going to do it if things don't change, but it's gonna take a while. Elman fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Oct 19, 2017 |
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Oct 19, 2017 09:46
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Well given that the Spainish government's about to take direct control, I guess we'll see how serious everyone was about their positions.
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Oct 19, 2017 10:12
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CottonWolf posted:Well given that the Spainish government's about to take direct control, I guess we'll see how serious everyone was about their positions. To be clear, apparently they'll pass it on Saturday (I thought it'd be today) and it still has to go through the Senate afterwards, so there's still some waiting to do.
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Oct 19, 2017 10:14
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Calling new elections is a risky gamble for both sides and I highly doubt anyone would agree to this. Also, gently caress brinksmanship politics, all the bluffs have been called, look for a different take or press the button already.
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Oct 19, 2017 10:19
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