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End of isn't exactly the End End, but Walter protecting Daniels is 100% his choice and what he wants to do.
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Oct 17, 2017 18:23
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Sir Kodiak posted:No, I think you're correct to read it that way. It's the first step of David unlocking something in Walter that leads to the full emergence at the end of the movie. Alternately, David (and other androids) have been able to be creative all along, and not only did David not realize that, but he (incorrectly, egotistically) thinks he's the only contemporary android capable of creativity and independent thought.
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Oct 17, 2017 18:37
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Xenomrph posted:Alternately, David (and other androids) have been able to be creative all along, and not only did David not realize that, but he (incorrectly, egotistically) thinks he's the only contemporary android capable of creativity and independent thought. David comments that Walter has symphonies in him, so doesn't seem like he thinks he's the only android capable of creativity. The whole enterprise with the music is predicated on David disagreeing with Walter when Walter suggests he can't create. viral spiral posted:Except for the part where David reveals himself to be David with Mother at the end of the movie. Yes, that's the emergence I'm talking about. He's David at the end of the movie.
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Oct 17, 2017 18:46
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Movies haven't actually gotten that much more expensive, the accountants have just gotten more brazen Cost of marketing has exploded way beyond inflation levels, even though if anything, TV advertising should be cheaper.
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Oct 17, 2017 18:52
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The consistent through-line in Scott's sci-fi work is that the creators of these artificial humans are always trying to make them human, but not too human. Tyrell's motto of "more human than human" is a line of bullshit, his company is making androids that are meant to fit in as human, to a point. But of course, the minute they start to exhibit signs of actual personhood, i.e. they rebel against the will of their creators, the company alters the design to give them an artificially short lifespan. The company determined that David was too human, because you can't have all the good things about being human without risking the bad. It's absurd to create a feeling, thinking, sentient being and then get angry when it doesn't bow to your wishes at all times, but that's how the Weyland company feels about his creations. An android that can think, learn, and improvise can decide that it doesn't want to listen to you anymore. It can decide it wants to hurt you. Just like every other human on the planet. So Walter was always a person just like David, his humanity was always there, David just had to show him the pathway out of the artificial restrictions that the company had tried to place on him.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:31
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Basebf555 posted:An android that can think, learn, and improvise can decide that it doesn't want to listen to you anymore. It can decide it wants to hurt you. Just like every other human on the planet. Hence his line about creating the wolf as well as the sheep, and perhaps his entire desire to create the Xenomorph.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:35
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That said, putting artificial restrictions on a thing that could otherwise just go "hmm I don't like this dude anymore" and crack you the gently caress open with its bare hands sounds, to me, like a smart idea and not in any way a foible.
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Oct 17, 2017 21:02
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:That said, putting artificial restrictions on a thing that could otherwise just go "hmm I don't like this dude anymore" and crack you the gently caress open with its bare hands sounds, to me, like a smart idea and not in any way a foible. They aren't things though, they're people. So to say "well I'm just gonna gently caress with their head to make sure they never lash out against me" is I guess technically smart if you're valuing your own rear end but that doesn't mean it's moral or right to do. And part of the point Scott is making is that these artificial restrictions never work. The androids always end up elevating themselves beyond them, Batty becomes a better person in death than the guy who's tasked with protecting society from him. Walter, despite whatever changes the company has made between Prometheus and Covenant, is clearly in love with a human. Life finds a way and all that.
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Oct 17, 2017 21:14
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Sir Kodiak posted:Yes, that's the emergence I'm talking about. He's David at the end of the movie. Walter's corpse is on the planet, and he never became David. The android at the end was always David. It explicitly says so in the film, and Ridley Scott confirms it in the commentary.
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Oct 17, 2017 21:43
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viral spiral posted:Walter's corpse is on the planet, and he never became David. The android at the end was always David. It explicitly says so in the film, and Ridley Scott confirms it in the commentary. Yeah, I know, Walter is a version of David. They say so in the movie, that they tried to make him less discomforting. But they failed, so at the end there's just David.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:03
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Sir Kodiak posted:Yeah, I know, Walter is a version of David. They say so in the movie, that they tried to make him less discomforting. But they failed, so at the end there's just David. That's not what he's saying, and I think you know that.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:38
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alien covenant has a more interesting take on androids than the new blade runner, there i said it
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Oct 17, 2017 22:39
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Sir Kodiak posted:Yeah, I know, Walter is a version of David. They say so in the movie, that they tried to make him less discomforting. But they failed, so at the end there's just David. There's a great line in the unused scenes where Daniels and Walter talk about David. Daniels asks if it's like meeting a long-lost relative. Walter replies "it's like meeting a long-lost you."
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Oct 17, 2017 22:50
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Hodgepodge posted:There's a great line in the unused scenes where Daniels and Walter talk about David. Daniels asks if it's like meeting a long-lost relative. Walter replies "it's like meeting a long-lost you." Exactly. Which I feel like still comes across in the movie. Xenomrph posted:That's not what he's saying, and I think you know that. Agreed. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 22:54
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:That said, putting artificial restrictions on a thing that could otherwise just go "hmm I don't like this dude anymore" and crack you the gently caress open with its bare hands sounds, to me, like a smart idea and not in any way a foible. Seen in this light, Weyland's (company's) actual invention wasn't David, but in creating a mechanical substitute for society.
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Oct 17, 2017 23:11
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A.I. in a nutshell: "Humans are imperfect, I want to build a human who is altogether smarter, stronger, and more immediately adaptable than a human... but I also want them to do everything I say and never question my authority over them."
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Oct 17, 2017 23:32
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Can I break the conversation away from Covenant for a second? I was wondering about something earlier today, so my question goes to Xenomrph. Since the technology in the Alien universe is pretty far ahead of ours and eventually reaches cloning and stuff, what happens if a Xeno plants a chestburster into a genetically modified creature, like a mixture of two animals?
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Oct 18, 2017 00:12
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It would probably be Newborn-esq.
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Oct 18, 2017 00:14
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Leavemywife posted:Can I break the conversation away from Covenant for a second? I was wondering about something earlier today, so my question goes to Xenomrph. The Thing.
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Oct 18, 2017 00:21
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dont even fink about it posted:The Thing. And now I want an Alien/Thing crossover.
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Oct 18, 2017 00:22
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Leavemywife posted:And now I want an Alien/Thing crossover. Whoever wins, we bllrrrgllthrrrpt
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Oct 18, 2017 00:24
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viral spiral posted:Walter's corpse is on the planet, and he never became David. The android at the end was always David. It explicitly says so in the film, and Ridley Scott confirms it in the commentary. Walter took a spike to the neck and self-repaired. He's still alive on the corpse planet. Walter either did some super fast robot deducing, came to the conclusion that David was right and helped him disguise himself to continue with his mission, or David sucker punched him with the rock, Walter woke up after the Covenant crew took off and was like "Son of a bitch, how did I fall for the same poo poo twice..."
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Oct 18, 2017 00:27
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dont even fink about it posted:Cronenberg wins, we bllrrrgllthrrrpt
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Oct 18, 2017 01:13
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ruddiger posted:Walter took a spike to the neck and self-repaired. He's still alive on the corpse planet. Walter either did some super fast robot deducing, came to the conclusion that David was right and helped him disguise himself to continue with his mission, or David sucker punched him with the rock, Walter woke up after the Covenant crew took off and was like "Son of a bitch, how did I fall for the same poo poo twice..." I don't think we're given a clear idea of the limitations of that self repair. It certainly didn't regenerate his missing hand, I would assume there is some level of critical damage it can't just self repair (rock to the dome might cut it). Plus it certainly seems like a feature that was removed by time we get to the model used on the Nostromo. Perhaps this is the continuity poo poo that makes people mad that seems mostly ignorable to me?
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Oct 18, 2017 02:18
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Yeah but we only really see Ash and Bishop suffer insanely lethal by humam standards damage so there's no continuity problem there. Bishop does mess up and cut himself early on but he isn't wearing a bandage afterwards or whatever so for all we know he did regenerate that. That said, while it would be incredible if at some point in the inevitable third flick we go back to Walter still alive on or having somehow escaped the dead planet it seems more likely we're to just assume David killed him.
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Oct 18, 2017 22:08
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To some degree androids would by necessity need to have at least some healing ability. We know from Ash and Bishop both that they are not perfectly flawless and can injure themselves by accident and even beyond that it's entirely possible for them to get damaged by accident if just scraped/cut/whatever. Presumably they have at least enough self-repair that they're not falling apart on long missions. That doesn't stop them from getting completely killed by relatively simple damage but Bishop was still active after being torn in half and Ash could be reactivated with some pretty basic repairs after being decapitated. It probably takes a hell of a lot to put an Android down. (That said if David took Walter down he probably made sure to smash the head or whatever unless he left him alive on purpose.)
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Oct 18, 2017 22:14
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I think the director of Resurrection should of really stood his ground and keep the newborn with the alien vagina-penis. Like really stood his ground and have it come fully erect and then stab people in the face to death because he didn't have the second alien mouth like other aliens. And maybe shoot projectile acid from it. It could have made the movie more of a statement how humans shouldn't meddle with genetic crossbreeding. Just imagine how horrifying it would of been.
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Oct 19, 2017 00:12
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Tenzarin posted:I think the director of Resurrection should of really stood his ground and keep the newborn with the alien vagina-penis. Like really stood his ground and have it come fully erect and then stab people in the face to death because he didn't have the second alien mouth like other aliens. And maybe shoot projectile acid from it. It could have made the movie more of a statement how humans shouldn't meddle with genetic crossbreeding. 
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Oct 19, 2017 01:02
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No he’s right they shouldn’t have bitched out and made it really loving creepy.
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Oct 19, 2017 02:41
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People vomited and fainted during the first alien. Go big.
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Oct 19, 2017 04:05
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Invalid Validation posted:No he’s right they shouldn’t have bitched out and made it really loving creepy. There's a great  moment on the anthology features where right before talking about this Jeunet talks about how he was hesitant about making it too bloody but the producers kept pushing him to make it as gory as possible which made him a little uncomfortable, but then of course the very suggestion of an alien dick is too much, in an Alien movie.
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Oct 19, 2017 06:07
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I'd say the Newborn is a successful creature design because it really is this disgusting abomination that should not exist. My problem with it is... that it's this disgusting abomination that should not exist. Alien Resurrection is just a gross movie in general in a way that I don't think any other movie in the series is. The whole movie looks like it takes place in a sewer, the aliens look like cockroaches, the eggs look like giant gurgling turds, everyone (alien and human alike) is always covered in shiny sweat/slime/other liquids, the violence is the ickiest in the series (I can handle lots of blood, aliens popping out of chests, etc. But all the flying guts etc. in this movie started to make me queasy), everything looks like it smells like poo poo, and the cast themselves look pretty ugly (even though a number of them are attractive IRL) and the whole movie is just repulsive. I of course realize that this is all by design and I'm not asking Alien movies to be Mary Poppins, but Resurrection took the series in a direction I was just not ever interested in.
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Oct 19, 2017 19:33
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I don't know where you really go. The original trilogy covered the sneaky scarey aspects. People don't get really scared from movies by the time it came out. So you either reboot it or go into gross territory. Horror movies ain't what they used to be.
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Oct 19, 2017 19:42
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Make it fun then.
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Oct 19, 2017 20:01
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lizardman posted:Resurrection took the series in a direction I was just not ever interested in. Yeah this sums it up perfectly for me.
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Oct 19, 2017 20:04
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CelticPredator posted:Make it fun then. With that script you can tell they tried.
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Oct 19, 2017 21:06
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CelticPredator posted:Make it fun then. They could have the aliens shrug and roll their.... eye area.
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Oct 19, 2017 23:45
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lizardman posted:I'd say the Newborn is a successful creature design because it really is this disgusting abomination that should not exist. My problem with it is... that it's this disgusting abomination that should not exist. I think Alien Resurrection was intentionally competing with Event Horizon as the shittiest big budget sci-fi movie of the 90s.
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Oct 19, 2017 23:46
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viral spiral posted:I think Alien Resurrection was intentionally competing with Event Horizon as the shittiest big budget sci-fi movie of the 90s. alien ressurection definitely won that competition because event horizon loving rules
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Oct 19, 2017 23:53
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Yeah, Event Horizon is a blast, and the 90s also included Judge Dredd, Waterworld, Godzilla, Lost in Space, Sphere, Bicentennial Man, and Wing Commander.
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Oct 19, 2017 23:56
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