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I'm not suggesting that the Punisher makes otherwise good and sane people into psychotic assholes. But at some point if psychotic assholes are idolizing The Punisher then there comes a point where those involved in making the Punisher must ask what their moral responsibility to the community is. That holds true for any fiction. If someone perverts any kind of movie, book, tv show, song, or cartoon frog its going to affect how people see it and how the creators use it going forward. You can't just stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist. Punisher is unique because there is not a comparable culture built around Saw or Boondock Saints. I'm not saying that's Marvel or Garth Ennis or whoever's fault. Its just the reality of the world we live in. And to a certain extent its probably the natural consequence of marrying a country that loves guns and preaches "law and order" with 40 years of a comic book anti-hero who uses guns to maintain law and order. And again, all it seems to mean is that the show might have been pushed back a few weeks and we might get less of a marketing push. For the most part Marvel/Netflix seem to be taking a pretty good measured approach to this and as I said, I thought they did a good job with him in Daredevil.
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Oct 20, 2017 02:59
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Lid posted:Inhumans Mods? MODS?!?!?!?!?!?!? If you don't want gun violence, this needs a probie NOW!
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Oct 20, 2017 03:02
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STAC Goat posted:I'm not suggesting that the Punisher makes otherwise good and sane people into psychotic assholes. But at some point if psychotic assholes are idolizing The Punisher then there comes a point where those involved in making the Punisher must ask what their moral responsibility to the community is. That holds true for any fiction. If someone perverts any kind of movie, book, tv show, song, or cartoon frog its going to affect how people see it and how the creators use it going forward. You can't just stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist. Mark David Chapman shot John Lennon and then read The Catcher in the Rye at his own trial. The Catcher in the Rye is on the banned books list because he took inspiration from it for the murder. A few years ago a teenage boy was arrested because he was making bombs based on Fight Club, he even named his hobby Project Mayhem, I believe. And Fight Club is about how white men get angry, refuse to grow up, and lash out at society as a result  So the Punisher is current with us but there have been pieces of fiction in the past that had a similar appeal to crazy people and there will likely be similar characters or stories like it in the future.It'll be interesting to watch the show and see if Marvel has also kept this stuff in mind. I have to think they did considering what we've seen in the previews.
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Oct 20, 2017 03:16
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^^Oh, hey, I am making a related argument.^^HIJK posted:Ultimately I object to any stance that holds fiction responsible for real world problems. Agreed. I realize how close to a pro-gun argument this is going to sound, but blaming content creators for the actions of their fanbase seems unfair. John Hinckley, Jr. was inspired by Taxi Driver, and by all accounts totally misread what that movie was about and what it was trying to say...Martin Scorsese is not responsible for that rear end in a top hat's actions. Which isn't to say that Punisher will end up being some deep cut about toxic masculinity and violence or whatever; it may be every bit the gun porn people suspect it is. But how a piece of media is received or interpreted by fans is completely out of a creator's hands. Of course, the difference between this and a pro-gun argument is that a Netflix show isn't purpose-built to kill things. Shooting people is actually literally the design intention of an AR-15.
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Oct 20, 2017 03:26
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Samizdata posted:Mods? MODS?!?!?!?!?!?!? Warren Ellis' Karnak
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Oct 20, 2017 03:29
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Xealot posted:Agreed. I realize how close to a pro-gun argument this is going to sound, but blaming content creators for the actions of their fanbase seems unfair. John Hinckley, Jr. was inspired by Taxi Driver, and by all accounts totally misread what that movie was about and what it was trying to say...Martin Scorsese is not responsible for that rear end in a top hat's actions.  We won't know until it comes out but for now it's alright to be hopeful. So long as the loving Hand doesn't show up.
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Oct 20, 2017 03:31
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Yeah I've had friends just wish that Marvel would just kill and erase the character of Frank Castle, but then again those friends are usually tankies who get way to upset over the littlest things. There are some troublesome/problematic details about Frank, especially in runs that involve him dealing with criminal gangs, but in the end its just a comic book and assholes will look for anything for validation.
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Oct 20, 2017 03:42
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HIJK posted:Frank Castle has a sizable LGBT female fanbase on social media and they absolutely adore him because he takes revenge on bad people. This is somewhat due to Jon Bernthal Lol "somewhat".
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Oct 20, 2017 04:01
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Lurdiak posted:Lol "somewhat". We're allowed to like attractive people too.
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Oct 20, 2017 04:06
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Lid posted:Warren Ellis' Karnak I love Warren Ellis' enough for all his GOOD work that his bad gets some slack. Still looking for Scott Buck's (pah! <spits in a glass repeatedly>) decent work.
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Oct 20, 2017 04:50
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Scott Buck (may he be blacklisted from all TV) produced Six Feet Under. I don't remember it being egregiously bad.
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Oct 20, 2017 13:35
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STAC Goat posted:
Boondock Saints may not be as much of a cult classic these days, but when it came out you better believe every guy was quoting it right along with Fight Club and the poster occupied dorm room walls right alongside Scarface, Fight Club, and Pulp Fiction.
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Oct 20, 2017 14:23
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I always cringe whenever I see cops affiliate themselves with the loving Punisher.
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Oct 20, 2017 15:08
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Samizdata posted:Mods? MODS?!?!?!?!?!?!? 
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Oct 20, 2017 15:18
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Gravity Cant Apple posted:Boondock Saints may not be as much of a cult classic these days, but when it came out you better believe every guy was quoting it right along with Fight Club and the poster occupied dorm room walls right alongside Scarface, Fight Club, and Pulp Fiction. i can confirm, you just described my dorm roommate to the letter the worst part was that he claimed he was part Irish (  ) so he thought he had a motherfucking license to quote boondock saints all day every day
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Oct 20, 2017 15:25
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Dexo posted:I always cringe whenever I see cops affiliate themselves with the loving Punisher. I just confused when I see criminals do it.
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Oct 20, 2017 15:41
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GuyUpNorth posted:Scott Buck (may he be blacklisted from all TV) produced Six Feet Under. I don't remember it being egregiously bad. Six Feet Under also had Alan Ball in the producer chair along with Buck. Ball, unlike Buck, isn't a (complete) hack and actually has creative talent, especially on his early projects. Edit: Six Feet Under was really good probably despite Buck is what I'm saying.
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Oct 20, 2017 16:24
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Samizdata posted:I love Warren Ellis' enough for all his GOOD work that his bad gets some slack. See the thing is I liked the Inhumans comic, specifically Paul Jenkins/Jae Lee's run. And Karnak was my favourite because his power was so unique and strong, though only used to its extent by King Peacock in Alan Moore's Top Ten. They just seem to have no god drat clue how to use the Inhumans (Attilan should be treated the same as Wakanda).
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Oct 20, 2017 17:03
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Scott Buck is the same person as Jeph Loeb.
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Oct 20, 2017 17:05
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Lid posted:Scott Buck is the same person as Jeph Loeb. Scarily plausible.
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Oct 20, 2017 17:08
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I think it's scary that police officers idolize the punisher.
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Oct 20, 2017 17:31
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The police force in the US has always been/is really hosed up.
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Oct 20, 2017 17:35
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pop fly to McGillicutty posted:I think it's scary that police officers idolize the punisher. It should be, he's basically an anti-cop. Any policeman going around with Punisher logos on his official duty gear should be treated like a loving gang/secret society affiliate.
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Oct 20, 2017 17:38
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Lid posted:See the thing is I liked the Inhumans comic, specifically Paul Jenkins/Jae Lee's run. And Karnak was my favourite because his power was so unique and strong, though only used to its extent by King Peacock in Alan Moore's Top Ten. They just seem to have no god drat clue how to use the Inhumans (Attilan should be treated the same as Wakanda). I really haven't done Inhumans since the 80's, frankly.
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Oct 20, 2017 18:07
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Gravity Cant Apple posted:Boondock Saints may not be as much of a cult classic these days, but when it came out you better believe every guy was quoting it right along with Fight Club and the poster occupied dorm room walls right alongside Scarface, Fight Club, and Pulp Fiction. But were police forces airbrushing their logo on their squad cars and were crazed militia dudes wearing Boondock Saints body armor? I think that's the rub here. There's always hyper masculine media that gets embraced from everyone from psychos to frat boys. But like there's literally police and militia idolizing the guy and seeing him as a hero and a symbol in a country that has a serious problem with police violence, militias, and gun violence. And its not a passing fad, its a decades old institutionalized idea that reinforces really dangerous and destructive real world ideas. Again, that's not necessarily Marvel's fault and its certainly not their problem to fix it (at least not primarily). But its the reality the Netflix show is being made in.
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Oct 20, 2017 21:53
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STAC Goat posted:But were police forces airbrushing their logo on their squad cars and were crazed militia dudes wearing Boondock Saints body armor? There are a lot of Irish cops, they could be wearing Celtic crosses? If the Boondock Saints had a logo other than a religious one or just their guns then you'd probably see people with it. Plenty of dudes have their family prayer or Veritas/Aequitas tattooed on themselves, maybe matching with one of their buddies, I could see some of them being cops.
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Oct 20, 2017 22:46
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Lid posted:Scott Buck is the same person as Jeph Loeb.
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Oct 20, 2017 23:13
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Gravity Cant Apple posted:There are a lot of Irish cops, they could be wearing Celtic crosses? If the Boondock Saints had a logo other than a religious one or just their guns then you'd probably see people with it. Plenty of dudes have their family prayer or Veritas/Aequitas tattooed on themselves, maybe matching with one of their buddies, I could see some of them being cops. We're not seriously going to argue that a Celtic cross is a default reference to Boondock Saints, right? I have a Celtic cross. I can assure you it has nothing to do with a movie I didn't even like. This is an overt reference.  http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-refuse-to-remove-the-punisher-logo-from-vehicles/ And to Marvel/whoever's credit in that article is the Punisher's co-creator saying that this is wrong. This isn't a condemnation of the Punisher as a character or Marvel/Netflix for using him. Its just an acknowledgement of the bigger complicated cultural reality. The same doesn't exist for Boondock Saints, and even if it did once its not a thing right now because there's not a new TV show for them.
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Oct 20, 2017 23:23
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STAC Goat posted:We're not seriously going to argue that a Celtic cross is a default reference to Boondock Saints, right? I have a Celtic cross. I can assure you it has nothing to do with a movie I didn't even like. I wasn't arguing that, just the opposite in fact. The Boondock Saints, Fight Club, etc. don't have an easily marketable logo. The Punisher has that cool logo that most other ultra-violent anti-heroes lack. The cool logo gets plastered all over things, people see it and think it's cool and plaster it over more things. Eventually the original themes and association get lost, especially with how widespread comic character logos are nowadays. I can't wait for the day that I stop seeing photos of wedding parties with the groomsmen showing off their superhero undershirts in a desperate attempt to be wacky
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Oct 20, 2017 23:45
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Sure. And the proliferation of the Punisher logo definitely has to do with how marketable it is and how long its been around. But also the reality is that a ton of cops put it on their cars and uniforms because they love the idea of killing criminals. Or other gun loving Americans who love the idea of picking who should live and die at the end of a gun. And that's touchy territory for Marvel and Netflix that they'd be somewhat irresponsible to stick their heads in the sand about. And again, to their credit, they seem to be handling it responsibly.
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Oct 20, 2017 23:52
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achillesforever6 posted:At least Loeb has tragedy to explain his problems The tragedy was 12 years ago and he still has a job after more failures than even Chuck Austen put out. Keeps getting work and falling upwards because he can maintain a schedule.
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Oct 21, 2017 01:14
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Lid posted:See the thing is I liked the Inhumans comic, specifically Paul Jenkins/Jae Lee's run. And Karnak was my favourite because his power was so unique and strong, though only used to its extent by King Peacock in Alan Moore's Top Ten. They just seem to have no god drat clue how to use the Inhumans (Attilan should be treated the same as Wakanda). The only Inhumans stories I've ever read were all in ultimate fantastic four, and I think they worked well in that context. Too bad that'll never happen in a movie now. Not that FF movies have a good track record...
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Oct 21, 2017 01:24
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WillyTheNewGuy posted:The only Inhumans stories I've ever read were all in ultimate fantastic four, and I think they worked well in that context. Too bad that'll never happen in a movie now. Not that FF movies have a good track record... http://comicsalliance.com/inhumans-paul-jenkins-jae-lee-review-marvel-knights/ It did win an Eisner
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Oct 21, 2017 01:26
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STAC Goat posted:Sure. And the proliferation of the Punisher logo definitely has to do with how marketable it is and how long its been around.
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Oct 21, 2017 01:31
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achillesforever6 posted:Yeah it reminds me how people took the wrong message from movies like Death Wish or Dirty Harry Or Rambo.
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Oct 21, 2017 01:37
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Burning_Monk posted:Or Rambo. Do you mean First Blood?
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Oct 21, 2017 01:52
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WillyTheNewGuy posted:The only Inhumans stories I've ever read were all in ultimate fantastic four, and I think they worked well in that context. Too bad that'll never happen in a movie now. Not that FF movies have a good track record... Speaking of that, has this show even loving come out or the Imax thing they tried to do because I've heard gently caress all about it, even to the point of it actually existing. Suicide Squad and BvS got trashed too but they at least generated conversation. At this point I couldn't tell you if Inhumans was even loving released because no one is talking about it, good or bad.
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Oct 21, 2017 02:12
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BiggerBoat posted:Speaking of that, has this show even loving come out or the Imax thing they tried to do because I've heard gently caress all about it, even to the point of it actually existing. Suicide Squad and BvS got trashed too but they at least generated conversation. It's airing on ABC literally as I type this.
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Oct 21, 2017 02:29
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howe_sam posted:It's airing on ABC literally as I type this. Jesus. So it's not even bad enough to be discussed it seems. Everything I've seen just screams boring and dull. If those things can be shouted I mean. Say what you want about BvS or SS at least they could generate discussion. Inhumans is like a SBD fart that lacks odor apparently.
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Oct 21, 2017 03:02
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BiggerBoat posted:Jesus. So it's not even bad enough to be discussed it seems. Everything I've seen just screams boring and dull. If those things can be shouted I mean. If you can ignore the writing, dialogue, fight choreography, special effects, and about 40% of the acting Inhumans is a perfectly fine show. I quite liked tonight’s episode.
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Oct 21, 2017 06:05
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