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Yawgmoth posted:Conversely, this is exactly what I want out of L5R. I want my shugenja to be goddamned wizards who are also ordained ministers, I want my bushi to be yelling about their secret blade style that can only be performed with My Grandfather's Blade, and I want my monks to be pulling off Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Techniques while expressing extreme dismay that you forced them to use it. Mostly because it's pretty simple to scale a game down but really loving hard to scale a game up. This is absolutely a legitimate thing to want out of of L5R! I have played a few l5r sessions that way and while definitively fun I always found that I always just played Exalted for that flavor of game. Luckily I have discovered Feng Shui these days, I don't think I am young enough to try learning the new Exalted edition. I would like to see bushi get neat powers, but I agree that they should stay grounded so to help preserve the flavor of a monk. I think the main problem with shugenja is that they can cast spells so quickly. In previous editions the fact that casting meaningful spells took several rounds in a game where getting hit had a serious chance to cripple you was a good balance.
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Oct 20, 2017 04:15
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I am fine with anime as hell wuxia flipping out, and I am fine with grounded and more sensical, but the game needs to choose which it is and set all archtypes around that. Bushi being grounded while everyone else is flying and flipping over trees is kinda bullshit.
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Oct 20, 2017 04:31
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ProfessorCirno posted:I am fine with anime as hell wuxia flipping out, and I am fine with grounded and more sensical, but the game needs to choose which it is and set all archtypes around that. Bushi being grounded while everyone else is flying and flipping over trees is kinda bullshit. I don't agree here, and had written up a post trying to argue why I don't think solving the fighter/wizard situation necessitates either doing away with magic entirely or making everyone magic, but I'm tired so it came out kind of messy and rambly and bad, so I'm just going to come back to that later instead, when I've slept and am back at my own computer. (Edit: Specifically, I don't agree with the "everyone magic or no one magic" thing; giving bushi more options and interesting things to do is good, and even giving them supernatural options could be cool. I just think that making them always magic, or conversely axing all the mystical elements for PCs, is an unnecessary and extreme option.) It did make me think of something else, however, that I'm now wondering about : What does everyone think about courtiers? They're the last of the "main three" character types alongside bushi and shugenja (monks being a weird side thing there's literally only one school for at present, much like shinobi (who also don't seem to get much attention)), and yet they never come up. They've been entirely outside the "balance" discussion, and honestly I can't remember them really coming up in the thread at all, at least not directly and in the context of the RPG; cool LCG courtier cards were definitely mentioned, and politics was mentioned in general, but the courtiers themselves have been strangely absent. They seem like they'd be really, really relevant to some of the arguments that have been made here too, regarding usefulness and relevance and contributing outside of a particular area and all that, among other things. Also, how many people here are actually playtesting the game? I don't have an IRL group I can play with, but if people here wanted to organize something, whether on the forums or on Discord or something, I'd love to participate. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Oct 20, 2017 |
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Oct 20, 2017 10:36
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Courtiers don't fit in the D&D paradigm that most people approach RPGs from, so rather that being excluded for being too powerful they are politely ignored as they are never picked for the Murder Posse.
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Oct 20, 2017 11:57
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The problem with Shugenja https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw
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Oct 20, 2017 12:17
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I would like to see bushi get neat powers, but I agree that they should stay grounded so to help preserve the flavor of a monk. I think the main problem with shugenja is that they can cast spells so quickly. In previous editions the fact that casting meaningful spells took several rounds in a game where getting hit had a serious chance to cripple you was a good balance. I would honestly prefer making spells more modular but less huge in their effects, and give bushi a bigger scale, width vs. height style. But I don't know how well that would work in practice.
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Oct 20, 2017 14:30
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Aramoro posted:The problem with Shugenja but bmx bandit can pop wheelies all day, while angel summoner can only summon angels x times per day!!!!  (nevermind that once angel summoner runs out of summons the whole party will inevitably stop and rest. shhhhhh.)
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Oct 20, 2017 15:46
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Courtiers do exactly what they need to do in this system. As I mentioned, Shuji are incredibly powerful in social contexts (And even outside of them, with initiative manipulation and bonuses in ckmbat). Unfortunately, I think literally every school in the book has access to Shuji. So a bushi, if willing to go outside their rank up tables, has as much ability to be a good courtier as a courtier. But they probably won't be ranking up from it, so they probably won't.
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Oct 20, 2017 16:42
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KittyEmpress posted:Courtiers do exactly what they need to do in this system. As I mentioned, Shuji are incredibly powerful in social contexts (And even outside of them, with initiative manipulation and bonuses in ckmbat). Unfortunately, I think literally every school in the book has access to Shuji. So a bushi, if willing to go outside their rank up tables, has as much ability to be a good courtier as a courtier. But they probably won't be ranking up from it, so they probably won't. Every school has them except the Kuni Witch Hunters, which is kind of hilarious to me, but yeah, Shuji present an odd problem in that, in theory everyone should be able to participate effectively in court, and thus have them, but simultaneously courtiers are supposed to be better in court scenarios. I mean, Shuji existing for everyone (except Kuni) is probably better than them existing for no one, since courtiers and court-focused people deserve interesting things too, but outside of school abilities the only thing really making courtiers better in court is that they're more likely to invest in court stuff. ...Which, honestly, isn't really much of a change from how things used to be, if I recall correctly, so. Yeah. Yawgmoth posted:That's honestly one of the things I hate most about previous editions since combat is typically over really fast. I can either cast my Xk1 damage spell or I can spend multiple turns doing nothing except saying "I keep casting my spell" and hope the bushi doesn't finish the fight before then. And even if they don't, enemy's probably got like a -30 TN penalty anyways by now do that big fun hadoken spell is total overkill. Oh yeah, dead turns suck. They aren't good for balance, they're just boring. No one likes doing nothing for a round or longer, particularly when it means a chance of not doing anything at all because the encounter might end before you can act. Making playing part of the game unfun isn't the way to go generally.
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Oct 20, 2017 17:24
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Roland Jones posted:Every school has them except the Kuni Witch Hunters, which is kind of hilarious to me, but yeah, Shuji present an odd problem in that, in theory everyone should be able to participate effectively in court, and thus have them, but simultaneously courtiers are supposed to be better in court scenarios. I mean, Shuji existing for everyone (except Kuni) is probably better than them existing for no one, since courtiers and court-focused people deserve interesting things too, but outside of school abilities the only thing really making courtiers better in court is that they're more likely to invest in court stuff. The major difference is that now courtiers have access to kata as well, which means the reverse is also true. The balance between courtiers and bushi is one of the things I'm most happy with in the beta.
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Oct 20, 2017 17:30
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NinjaDebugger posted:The major difference is that now courtiers have access to kata as well, which means the reverse is also true. The balance between courtiers and bushi is one of the things I'm most happy with in the beta. Oh, they do? I never thought to check that. That's pretty awesome then. Also makes the Kuni having Kata instead of Shuji less weird, since previously non-martial people being martially-adept is already a big thing here, just in this case it's a shugenja instead of a courtier. And the Kuni learning to fight well but being awful in court is really appropriate anyway, even if them being uniquely awful there is still really amusing to me.
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Oct 20, 2017 17:41
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Exponential wizards and linear fighters make a ton of sense if that is the setting. When I play L5R it is usually heavy on the politics and social tension tension, and less wandering around murdering people as your muscles swell with all the sweet XP you harvest from the hundreds of monsters you slaughter. Let me be explicit. It is completely irrelevant the degree to which the game is about politics and society instead of physical violence. It is completely irrelevant because invocations/kiho have extensive use in non-combat situations and kata do not. That is the entire core of the problem. It absolutely does not mean that fighter/wizard imbalance is appropriate. Who can tail the prostitute as she visits the hiding location of the lord's illegitimate son? The bushi can make some manner of check. The shugenja can become flying, invisible mist, or imitate the boy's nanny. Or possibly rip the location out of the prostitute's head straight up. Who can save the illegitimate son from a collapsed mine? The bushi can move rocks for weeks on end while the boy dies. The shugenja can walk through the boulders, so even if the GM doesn't let him walk out with the boy he can deliver fresh food and water while any stupid rear end in a top hat clears the rocks. Magically created food, if needed. Hell, maybe the shugenja alone now gets an exciting micro-adventure as he leads the boy out another exit, using magic to let them brave the depths of underground rivers and see in the dark. When the party has the boy and needs to pass a band of the chancellor's men, avoiding swordplay at all costs? The bushi again Stealth checks or whatever. The shugenja blankets the opposition in a fog bank or goes back to that whole flying, invisible mist thing. Etcetera. And what I discuss here is generally only Rank 2 stuff. The shugenja's remarkable combat prowess serves to salt the bushi's wounds. But the core of the problem is narrative superiority at all times. KittyEmpress posted:Maybe you should post on their forums, where they actually read the threads. I have the dev team's ear in some small way, because I write emails to them about these issues and have received non-form-letter response, demonstrating I am being read if not agreed with. I post here to focus my thoughts, catch additional ideas and contrary opinions that focus me further, and encourage all of you to write emails backing me up.  I will not post on FFG's actual forums because that way lies nothing but "rules what do make PC pregnate?" quote:Etc etc. What I'm saying is that all these magical things you claim are impossible to replicate that tip the balance of even social and combat occasions can be matched or even exceeded with shuji and kata. Shuji indeed do many neat things but, unfortunately, are not a balancing mechanism between characters because quote:literally every school in the book has access to Shuji. Which is actually something I like and wouldn't see changed, by the way. Roland Jones posted:Also, how many people here are actually playtesting the game? I don't have an IRL group I can play with, but if people here wanted to organize something, whether on the forums or on Discord or something, I'd love to participate. For the record I do actually have a group of a half-dozen players giving me actual playtest data. I'm not into e-RPGing but I hope you find something. My complaints should not be misread: I think L5R 5e is shaping up to be good. I complain because I want it to be great and little purpose is served back-pat-posting about the things I like (strife, outbursts, the rational framework for Techniques, the Death Of Ability Scores, and more).
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Oct 20, 2017 17:43
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Roland Jones posted:I don't agree here, and had written up a post trying to argue why I don't think solving the fighter/wizard situation necessitates either doing away with magic entirely or making everyone magic, but I'm tired so it came out kind of messy and rambly and bad, so I'm just going to come back to that later instead, when I've slept and am back at my own computer. (Edit: Specifically, I don't agree with the "everyone magic or no one magic" thing; giving bushi more options and interesting things to do is good, and even giving them supernatural options could be cool. I just think that making them always magic, or conversely axing all the mystical elements for PCs, is an unnecessary and extreme option.) Not everyone needs to be magic but if some are extraordinary than everyone needs to be, and courtiers don't get as much analysis because they tend to get more of those extraordinary capabilities even if they aren't magic. Also because the game is presented as political intrigue it's much rarer for a courtier to end up unable to contribute to a situation than a bushi.
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Oct 20, 2017 18:38
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Elfgames posted:Not everyone needs to be magic but if some are extraordinary than everyone needs to be, and courtiers don't get as much analysis because they tend to get more of those extraordinary capabilities even if they aren't magic. Also because the game is presented as political intrigue it's much rarer for a courtier to end up unable to contribute to a situation than a bushi. Courtiers are #1 most likely to have their techniques nosold, though, so if they can wean people off the "courtier techs are evil bullshit, you should be ROLEPLAYING it" they will be my heroes forever.
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Oct 20, 2017 18:53
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I think Dread would be a good system to use for an intrigue and story-focused L5R campaign. It’s perfect for iajutsu, dueling, and serious political blunders that would have you laughed out of court or commit sodoku. But the RPG system given isn’t that. It’s a crunchy D&D game so we need to treat it as such.
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Oct 20, 2017 18:54
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Courtiers don't fit in the D&D paradigm that most people approach RPGs from, so rather that being excluded for being too powerful they are politely ignored as they are never picked for the Murder Posse. I think this is a lot of the issue. I think in the L5R games I've played in the past maybe one person tried playing a courtier of any sort. And I think the toning down of the global catastrophe nature of the story (assuming that's what they do) may help with that. It's hard to really build a narrative around a lot of court intrigue and political maneuvering when pseudo-Satan's raising an army of horrors to invade every other month, or some lovecraftian void is taking over everything body-snatcher style, or you're being invaded by the Hindu pantheon or whatever other stuff they kept throwing in to destroy the world. Of course the other issue is that (again, largely from a D&D mindset) social stuff is still in the realm of "roleplay" for a lot of people so they don't really expect to just have a bunch of skills and powers for things they think they can just talk their way into (besides the wizardy-types who just cast charm or whatever and mind-control the situation but whatever).
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Oct 20, 2017 19:20
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alansmithee posted:you're being invaded by the Hindu pantheon Unless I'm forgetting something even more egregiously cack-handed, that was the dumbest of all the major plot lines.
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Oct 20, 2017 19:39
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Yawgmoth posted:why did you have to remind me of this Luckily the killed all their entire civilization first! Second City would have been much more interesting if it had been more about having conquered a huge population and not building a huge city from scratch surrounded by nothing but jungle.
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Oct 20, 2017 19:52
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I'm involved in a 5 person beta test game run over discord in hourish chunks 5 times a week (for 2 weeks so far). Its very fun. I'm not running into the issues Klaus is constantly talking about. And as someone posting feedback on their forums, I definitely have not seen people asking for pregnancy rules, so lol.
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Oct 20, 2017 21:49
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On the note of spell balance, it IS slightly worth noting that the most powerful spell in L5R 4th edition was in fact a level one spell, it's just one that completely hosed the general action economy and simultaniously served as a huge boost to bushi damage. That's right. It's the AoE prone. It's always the level 1 AoE prone, in every game.
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Oct 20, 2017 21:59
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ProfessorCirno posted:On the note of spell balance, it IS slightly worth noting that the most powerful spell in L5R 4th edition was in fact a level one spell, it's just one that completely hosed the general action economy and simultaniously served as a huge boost to bushi damage. I think its situational, you could argue the spell that esrased someone from ever existing was more powerful, but then hiw would you know it had ever been cast?
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Oct 20, 2017 22:27
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Aramoro posted:I think its situational, you could argue the spell that esrased someone from ever existing was more powerful, but then hiw would you know it had ever been cast? Yeah but that spell requires way more time and effort. You can just poo poo out level 1 AoE prones, which remove your enemy's ability to attack that turn (at least until attacking as a simple is common, which is mid-game at best), and ALSO gives a sizable nerf to their defenses, allowing your bushi to call more raises on their attacks. Erasing a dude from existance is a real cool way to finish a boss, but Tempest of Air will get you to the boss. That was L5R4 in a nutshell really, at least for combat. Tempest of Air, Fires of Purity, Path to Inner Peace, and Jade Strike. Legit all you need in combat, a level 1 spell in each ring. Oh sure, later on you might dabble with the more explosive or flashy spells, but those four will get you though a lot. A heal, a buff, an AoE control, and a nuke against Tainted, all level 1 so you can pound those out immediately rather then spend several rounds trying to sweeten the deal with the kami. "Cirno why not NUKE the enemy with lightning or-" Your bushi does damage better. And also, YOU do it better, with fleshcutter arrows, because archery was incredible in L5R4.
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Oct 21, 2017 03:15
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KittyEmpress posted:I'm involved in a 5 person beta test game run over discord in hourish chunks 5 times a week (for 2 weeks so far). Its very fun. I'm not running into the issues Klaus is constantly talking about. And as someone posting feedback on their forums, I definitely have not seen people asking for pregnancy rules, so lol. What's your party composition? We've got three bushi/courtiers, two shugenja of differing elemental preferences, and a tattooed man, so we see a bit of everything. If you have contrasting experience please detail the hows and whys. What Techniques at what Ranks do your PCs possess? How have they applied them to what situations? The "pregnate" thing, woof. There was this truly unbelievable post during the Star Wars RPG beta. I saved it for posterity somewhere but am having a little trouble turning it up. It pretty much sums up why I don't really deal with forums other than SA. ProfessorCirno posted:It's always the level 1 AoE prone, in every game. I think they caught that very particular one, this time. Prone doesn't jack with action economy in L5R 5e. LCG CHAT When does one play Height of Fashion? It can't be played in Dynasty because attachment and can't be played during conflicts because text. I assume there's a special pre-conflict window?
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Oct 21, 2017 04:17
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SuperKlaus posted:LCG CHAT There are action windows all over the place. Take a look at the Rules Reference. But yeah it's before you declare a conflict.
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Oct 21, 2017 04:36
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SuperKlaus posted:What's your party composition? We've got three bushi/courtiers, two shugenja of differing elemental preferences, and a tattooed man, so we see a bit of everything. If you have contrasting experience please detail the hows and whys. What Techniques at what Ranks do your PCs possess? How have they applied them to what situations? I am playing a Kakita Duelist We have a Shinjo Outrider, a boring white bread (I mean Phoenix) Shugenja, and a Bayushi manipulator (who is actually a shoshuro family members) We had a dragon monk for the first few sessions but they got asked to work nights so no longer. We are entering rank 3, at least the Bayushi is, but every one else has been buying things outside their school chart so the rest of us are rank 2 still. I only have access to my own sheet right this second but I have: Kata rank 1: iajutsu (obviously), Striking as Water, Soaring Slice, Striking as Air. Kata rank 2: Spinning Blades Style In a fight, I generally iajutsu out both my blades on the first turn, using spinning blades style to deal my wakizashi damage as well as my katana damage on my iajutsu. I then tend to use striking as Air if it's a one on one situation where i don't feel the need to lower their armor, and have used striking as water the one time I fought a heavily armored crab guy (I sorta regret striking as water, but I felt it would lower one of the big weaknesses to thick armor. Unfortunately our GM has mostly been forgetting any armor lower than top tier stuff). Soaring Slice has scored me two great crits from ronin fleeing that I probably couldn't have caught. Our gm also ruled that I can use spinning blades style with soaring slice, since soaring slice is any martial arts skill, and spinning blades says you can use it on any melee or unarmed martial art check. I've also been taking a few Shuji to be socially competent, as befits a crane Shuji rank 1: Shallow Waters, Sensational Distraction, Truth Burns Through Lies, Well of Desires Shuji Rank 2: Slippery Maneuvers, Tribituaries of Trade I'm the social secondary character. When forced into situations solo, my character is a terrifically good gift giver, and great at causing people to do what she wants for a nice gift. I tend to, in social situations, play to kill them with kindness by buttering up especially the people I hate. I'm great at figuring out what they want and then declaring I have it, giving it to them, and letting either their Strife build up before a duel, or make them very easy to convince to like me more. When paired with the Bayushi, I am able to use sensational distraction to, Well, distract. I am building towards support social stuff in that way. It helps that the Bayushi is actually going heavily Air focused, not fire focused, because they believed manipulative bastard fit them more than emotional bastard. I took slippery maneuvers and haven't actually gotten to use it yet. It doesn't help that my character is very much wanting to be on the front line cutting people's sword hands off, not manipulating terrain and creating helpful positions for allies. My rings are currently: earth 2, void 1, air 4, water 3, fire 3. The Shinjo Outrider is heavily fire and water, but is a mounted archer in battle. While I have been making myself unhittable and doing damage from the front, he has been using striking as fire and pelting hail style. He is also an artisan, and a fine painter, who also has Sensational Distraction (but no other social Shuji) The Bayushi is heavily Air and Void, with a bit of water. He has... most of the Shuji from air, is the only one minmaxing his purchase decisions to rank up. The isawa has a lot of support spells. Including making us fly, healing wounds, making us invisible, and turning water to mud. He has no direct damage spells. He is heavily Air and Water, with a touch of Earth. He mostly blanks out during social occasions, and follows either my character or the Bayushi around, to ensure we don't get into trouble. KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Oct 21, 2017 |
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Oct 21, 2017 05:43
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Completely unrelated but "Kakita" means "Little poo poo" in my language so that's going to make teaching the LCG an interesting experience 
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Oct 21, 2017 09:08
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Azran posted:Completely unrelated but "Kakita" means "Little poo poo" in my language so that's going to make teaching the LCG an interesting experience When you think about the pride of the average Kakita duelist... kinda fits And I'm very jealous of those of you running the beta for the RPG, as I said, my group is 4E or bust grognards (and we don't have a game running right now anyway), I was thinking about doing a PbP or Discord game just to fill the void.
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Oct 21, 2017 15:17
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Azran posted:Completely unrelated but "Kakita" means "Little poo poo" in my language
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Oct 21, 2017 15:18
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SirFozzie posted:And I'm very jealous of those of you running the beta for the RPG, as I said, my group is 4E or bust grognards (and we don't have a game running right now anyway), I was thinking about doing a PbP or Discord game just to fill the void. I would join if you did. Which reminds me, on a tangent from courtiers being able to fight, is there any reason people whose starting outfits don't include a full daisho can't just have one anyway? I mean, lore-wise I think all samurai have one, so I don't see why a shugenja or courtier couldn't just... Go get it.
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Oct 21, 2017 15:59
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they can have it, but if they CARRY it, they're expected to use it in self defense. So, they keep it packed away in most cases.
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Oct 21, 2017 16:16
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KittyEmpress posted:information Fascinating, thank you I will digest this.Azran posted:Completely unrelated but "Kakita" means "Little poo poo" in my language so that's going to make teaching the LCG an interesting experience  edit: which language? I've seen you post that you're from...was it Chile? Sorry for not remembering. SuperKlaus fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Oct 21, 2017 |
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Oct 21, 2017 16:38
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SirFozzie posted:they can have it, but if they CARRY it, they're expected to use it in self defense. So, they keep it packed away in most cases. Yeah, I remember that. Was just thinking, for the aforementioned martial courtier, or a Kuni perhaps. (Actually, tangent, why are Kuni one of the shugenja who don't get to pick a free weapon? They're the one shugenja family that actually wants to fight, but they only get their wakizashi and a dagger. Meanwhile others could have a freaking tetsubo if they wanted.)
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Oct 21, 2017 16:56
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Azran posted:Completely unrelated but "Kakita" means "Little poo poo" in my language so that's going to make teaching the LCG an interesting experience What language is that? I want to know for future "talking poo poo about Crane" purposes.
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Oct 21, 2017 17:04
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Spanish. "Caca" is a really common vulgar (yet not offensive, unlike 'mierda') way of referring to fecal matter, kinda like "poo". "Caquita", the diminituve form of caca, sounds just like "Kakita" (qu in Spanish is pronounced like a "k" sound). "Cacota" would mean "big poo poo".SuperKlaus posted:Fascinating, thank you I'm from Argentina. You were close
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Oct 21, 2017 19:43
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Azran posted:Spanish. "Caca" is a really common vulgar (yet not offensive, unlike 'mierda') way of referring to fecal matter, kinda like "poo". "Caquita", the diminituve form of caca, sounds just like "Kakita" (qu in Spanish is pronounced like a "k" sound). "Cacota" would mean "big poo poo". Tangent: I live in Taiwan and one of the popular board game store chains here is called CaCa City, based off the first syllable pair of how locals(who speak Chinese) say the popular board game Carcasonne; dropping the 'r' because people here struggle with that sound. Needless to say, it always gets a laugh and a strange look from new people who arrive on the island and are invited to play a board game there.
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Oct 21, 2017 23:49
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PaybackJack posted:Tangent: it wasn't called that until you showed up!  *rap airhorn* Atlernatley new thread title: "L5R: It's Spanish for "poo"." Deviant fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Oct 22, 2017 |
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Oct 21, 2017 23:51
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Say, everyone likes to put Dragon into other decks because of Let Go (still wrapping my head around that), and some other things, but what are folks adding to Dragon? I'm testing Crane because Above Question does look really good and Admit Defeat is just too cute to ignore with Mirumoto Prodigy.
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Oct 22, 2017 02:19
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Unicorn for Spyglass and whatever else.
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Oct 22, 2017 06:01
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nyxnyxnyx posted:Unicorn for Spyglass and whatever else. That's a funny way to pronounce noted best Unicorn card, "Captive Audience".
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Oct 22, 2017 06:20
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SuperKlaus posted:Say, everyone likes to put Dragon into other decks because of Let Go (still wrapping my head around that), and some other things, but what are folks adding to Dragon? I'm testing Crane because Above Question does look really good and Admit Defeat is just too cute to ignore with Mirumoto Prodigy. I like adding Crab because of Reprieve. Scorpion and Crane are really popular here, and I am trying to find a clan that is fun to play that isn't one of those. Leaning Dragon at the moment simply because monks look cool.
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Oct 23, 2017 01:44
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