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That Old Tree posted:On the other hand, now, I don't feel all that guilty about it anymore, because John made something of a habit of sexual harassment. Mentioned just a little further down in that thread is where the dude that runs d20pfsrd makes a Facebook post asking Frank Mentzer if Jessica Price's allegations against him are true. Which is just about the worst goddamn possible reaction.
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Oct 23, 2017 01:24
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gradenko_2000 posted:Mentioned just a little further down in that thread is where the dude that runs d20pfsrd makes a Facebook post asking Frank Mentzer if Jessica Price's allegations against him are true. I am 100% not surprised that guy is an idiot, based entirely on how he runs that site.
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Oct 23, 2017 01:26
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gradenko_2000 posted:Mentioned just a little further down in that thread is where the dude that runs d20pfsrd makes a Facebook post asking Frank Mentzer if Jessica Price's allegations against him are true. You're really underselling it: PFSRD guy posted:Can you say here if you believe that Jessica Price is making up her statements (and accompanying screenshots) of her conversations with you? I need to know if I need to stop supporting her and her work if she's straight up lying and trying to libel you (for ??? reasons?) "Hey, guy accused of harassment: Can you tell me if you think your accuser is crazy, or just lying? Because if she's lying I'll write her off completely, but if she's crazy [file not found]"
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Oct 23, 2017 01:30
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That Old Tree posted:My exit from Exalted hosed me up. I loved that game, perhaps too much, so I got pretty depressed and later made a big, showy, rear end in a top hat spectacle of myself for an embarrassingly long time. Since then, I've continually struggled with a desire to apologize to Holden and John for how I acted, because however stupid and foot-in-mouth they were, they didn't deserve me lurking in Exalted threads spitting at them. But I couldn't do it, because I wouldn't really mean it. At the same time, you have to realize people do make their own beds, and they worked very hard at causing that very reaction for a lot of folks. It may not have been fair to lash out at them, but at the same time it very much feels like they were the architects of their own disaster.
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Oct 23, 2017 01:38
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Alien Rope Burn posted:At the same time, you have to realize people do make their own beds, and they worked very hard at causing that very reaction for a lot of folks. It may not have been fair to lash out at them, but at the same time it very much feels like they were the architects of their own disaster. A simpler way to put this is that Holden was, and probably still is, an rear end in a top hat. I wouldn't lie awake at night beating myself up over possibly having offended the guy who decided to die on the hill of spectral "ravishing" and "we aren't interested in giving people what they think they want" even before all the weird poo poo about him and Morke playing chicken with Rich Thomas over Exalted came out.
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Oct 23, 2017 02:05
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That Old Tree posted:On the other hand, now, I don't feel all that guilty about it anymore, because John made something of a habit of sexual harassment. Back when the Exalted 3e Kickstarter was running and the Infernals preview dropped, I was in a bit of a spiteful mood and went onto the unofficial Exalted IRC channel where Mørke hung out and complained about how, after all their promises of cutting down on sexualized depictions of women in Exalted, they immediately release a sketch of a naked woman as concept art for the Infernals. (Egregious by itself but I was also motivated by dislike for the direction they were taking the game in, which made me spiteful and kind of looking for a fight.) Mørke's response was to accuse me of being a sexist slut-shamer who wanted to tell women what they could and couldn't wear. After some arguments back and forth it ended with Mørke complaining that because of people like me, a world like Exalted where women just walk around in bikinis all day remains a fantasy.
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Oct 23, 2017 02:06
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LatwPIAT posted:Back when the Exalted 3e Kickstarter was running and the Infernals preview dropped, I was in a bit of a spiteful mood and went onto the unofficial Exalted IRC channel where Mørke hung out and complained about how, after all their promises of cutting down on sexualized depictions of women in Exalted, they immediately release a sketch of a naked woman as concept art for the Infernals. (Egregious by itself but I was also motivated by dislike for the direction they were taking the game in, which made me spiteful and kind of looking for a fight.) As I recall, the given justification for that character's mode of dress was "she's a strong empowered female, and as it turns out she just so happens to like expressing her strong empowered femaleness by wearing as little clothing as possible because, I mean, who wouldn't."
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Oct 23, 2017 02:19
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Which is basically the same line Holden dropped when they previewed some sword-winged Lunar from the comic they commissioned that just so happened to have giant balloon knockers and bikini briefs. We had very frank dev discussions where they seemed totally on board with "no more bikini witches" and then welp.
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Oct 23, 2017 02:45
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That Old Tree posted:Which is basically the same line Holden dropped when they previewed some sword-winged Lunar from the comic they commissioned that just so happened to have giant balloon knockers and bikini briefs. This is all years ago and through the haze of memory so take it for what it's worth, but I actually brought up the bikini Infernal thing to Holden back when it was new and what he told me was that he essentially contacted Mel Uran, the artist, and asked her to please do up a character sketch for the Kickstarter and that's what she turned in. When I asked him "well why couldn't you just say this is nice and all but I was hoping for something a bit less cheesecake-y" what I got was that she banged it out in 24 hours with a migraine and that he had a Kickstarter hype train to keep rolling and so he just had to run with it and the whole thing was just out of his hands. All of which raises further questions regarding the management of a high-profile Kickstarter and why something like the chain of events described to me was even a thing that happened in the first place, but I mean I'm just a guy on the internet so what do I know.
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Oct 23, 2017 02:53
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There's no way a professional artist turns in a bikini witch unless that's what the client asked for or there was some kind of huge misunderstanding. If Uran is drawing half-naked ladies it's because she knows that what the client wants.
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Oct 23, 2017 02:59
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Yeah, Mel likes her cheesecake. And pretty much everything preview-y for the Kickstarter was edited/laid out by me in the middle of it all. I edited together that 2+ hour discussion video with graphics over a sleepless weekend. Whence, after all that, my more strident opinions on freelancers getting paid for the poo poo they do.
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Oct 23, 2017 03:01
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Kwyndig posted:There's no way a professional artist turns in a bikini witch unless that's what the client asked for or there was some kind of huge misunderstanding. If Uran is drawing half-naked ladies it's because she knows that what the client wants. Uran had worked on the line before so she might be delivering what she thought was expected.
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Oct 23, 2017 03:01
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Like I said, this was an IM conversation with a guy from literal years ago, like 5+ or more by now, so perhaps there are other details I'm forgetting that add more context or something, but I do remember the general thrust of the conversation being that Holden had every excuse at the ready but "oh yeah, after the whole bit about toning down the blatant sexualization and weird fetish stuff maybe I should issue an apology for posting bikini babes and rapeghost magic, my bad."
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Oct 23, 2017 03:06
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Kai Tave posted:This is all years ago and through the haze of memory so take it for what it's worth, but I actually brought up the bikini Infernal thing to Holden back when it was new and what he told me was that he essentially contacted Mel Uran, the artist, and asked her to please do up a character sketch for the Kickstarter and that's what she turned in. When I asked him "well why couldn't you just say this is nice and all but I was hoping for something a bit less cheesecake-y" what I got was that she banged it out in 24 hours with a migraine and that he had a Kickstarter hype train to keep rolling and so he just had to run with it and the whole thing was just out of his hands. I mean, Mel Uran does good work and seeing a pinup piece in her portfolio wouldn't really raise an eyebrow, since she A) does that kind of work but also B) has a broad body of work including widely varied depictions of women. That she defaulted to that given her experience with Exalted and the circumstances is, on its own, understandable. And stuff happens in every project that forces a last minute rush for a solution. But somehow it just so happened that all these artists with wonderfully varied portfolios had done sexualized art, and "unexpected" emergency needs cropped up over and over, and they always had the same answers: "well its empowering for some women to dress sexily" and "we're committed to varied depictions of course, we understand the concern, but judge us by the full body of work." Sadly that kind of arguing like every event is a totally isolated incident is pretty much par for the course with these things.
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Oct 23, 2017 03:10
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PFSRD guy posted:I need to clarify something, I was trying to get Frank to outright state, in public, that he was calling Jessica a liar. I fully believe her but as said, I was trying to get him to actually say the words. quote:See my previous post. I don't support Frank or believe him. I support and believe Jessica. I was trying to get him to SAY OUT LOUD he was calling her a liar. Well, I guess PFSRD guy was just trying to be a really dumb internet detective. Good job!  FAKE EDIT: And now Matt McFarland has been accused of raping a minor 18 years ago.
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Oct 23, 2017 03:16
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^^^Uh woah, well that escalated quickly. The Exalted 3E Kickstarter was a pretty fascinating trainwreck in general, bikini babes aside, and one day someone's going to have a really entertaining tell-all to share. Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Oct 23, 2017 |
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Oct 23, 2017 03:18
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I'm currently debating whether I should share my chatlog from when I was called a slut-shaming sexist rear end in a top hat or not. On one hand, it'd give me a sense of smug satisfaction, on the other, there's this part of my brain that says not to drag out five-year-old chatlogs to tarnish people just because I got angry at them over an elfgame once...
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Oct 23, 2017 03:24
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gradenko_2000 posted:Mentioned just a little further down in that thread is where the dude that runs d20pfsrd makes a Facebook post asking Frank Mentzer if Jessica Price's allegations against him are true. Well I mean, Mike Mearls set that particular example, so... 
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Oct 23, 2017 03:31
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I'm hardly a professional art director, but I've been hiring artists on personal art commissions for years now. I don't generally request pieces in a pin-up style, and I can only think of one time a piece of mine has come out more racy than requested. Part of that is knowing what to expect or request from the artists I hire and always looking at their portfolios, but if that kind of thing is happening consistently against your intentions, you either need to give better instructions or hire a different artist. I remember asking some of the 2e devs what it was like to work with UDON Studios at the time and they have a huge groan and started kvetching on how UDON wouldn't follow the request guidelines, how they'd get a phoenix when they requested a dragon. etc. That's kind of a bad situation to be in where you have artists you know appeal to the audience but who are willing to blow off art direction, if that's really the case. I did get to meet some of the UDON folks about it; I was myself starstruck over the opportunity to get a sketch from Omar Dogan at the time. I remember mentioning his art in Cult of the Illuminated and him saying he really didn't like having to do those caste symbols, but mostly expressed embarrassment at how bad he felt he was back then. In any case, Dogan did follow my character design just fine with some slight adjustments and I liked the piece I got, for the record.
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Oct 23, 2017 03:34
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Kai Tave posted:^^^Uh woah, well that escalated quickly. If they make a Designer's & Dragons for the aughts, it's going to be a crazy read.
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Oct 23, 2017 03:41
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I'm hardly a professional art director, but I've been hiring artists on personal art commissions for years now. I don't generally request pieces in a pin-up style, and I can only think of one time a piece of mine has come out more racy than requested. Part of that is knowing what to expect or request from the artists I hire and always looking at their portfolios, but if that kind of thing is happening consistently against your intentions, you either need to give better instructions or hire a different artist. I've always wondered how commonplace this sort of thing is because people in the Exalted 3 thread (I recall Stephen Lea Sheppard in particular) kept trying to trot out this idea that artists are free spirited and temperamental and you just sort of have to accept their mercurial whims when it comes to commissioning pieces from them which did, and still does, kind of blow my mind. The context of the discussion at the time was an artist that had regularly been tapped to do art for the Exalted line who had a habit of putting flashes of heart-embossed panties in her pictures. "Well have you told them to stop doing that?" "You can't, like, tell artists what to do man!" Does this happen with other publishers? There's the story about art direction and artists with D&D 4E where the direction was for a tough warrior woman in practical leather armor and they got a busty babe doing a shampoo commercial pose, so if this is actually an ongoing dilemma that's been plaguing the roleplaying game industry then I'm genuinely baffled because that sounds like the most ridiculous situation to wind up in, held hostage by artists who won't actually do what you're paying them for and forcing you to pander to their heart panty fetish.
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Oct 23, 2017 03:45
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How well was White Wolf paying for art back in the 2e days? If it's close to the bottom of the bag, I can see how that situation happens.
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Oct 23, 2017 03:49
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LeSquide posted:How well was White Wolf paying for art back in the 2e days? If it's close to the bottom of the bag, I can see how that situation happens. I mean I understand about getting what you pay for, and in the RPG industry everybody generally winds up criminally underpaid, but that's usually in terms of overall quality, not "okay I'll take your offer BUT you didn't pay enough for me to accept any feedback or art direction."
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Oct 23, 2017 03:54
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Kai Tave posted:Does this happen with other publishers? There's the story about art direction and artists with D&D 4E where the direction was for a tough warrior woman in practical leather armor and they got a busty babe doing a shampoo commercial pose, so if this is actually an ongoing dilemma that's been plaguing the roleplaying game industry then I'm genuinely baffled because that sounds like the most ridiculous situation to wind up in, held hostage by artists who won't actually do what you're paying them for and forcing you to pander to their heart panty fetish. When the 'Martian Ranger' sample character ended up half-naked in Sunward, Posthuman Studios (who make Eclipse Phase) said that it happened because the artist didn't deliver to spec and they simply didn't have time to ask for it to be redone, so their options was to MSPaint over the bare skin, have a blank piece of art for a character, or publish what they got. That said it's really weird because most contracts surely stipulate that if work isn't delivered to the specifications, you don't have to pay for it? (And in return, have no right to use it. I know unpaid work is a serious issue for a lot of freelance artists.)
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Oct 23, 2017 03:55
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Kai Tave posted:I've always wondered how commonplace this sort of thing is because people in the Exalted 3 thread (I recall Stephen Lea Sheppard in particular) kept trying to trot out this idea that artists are free spirited and temperamental and you just sort of have to accept their mercurial whims when it comes to commissioning pieces from them which did, and still does, kind of blow my mind. The context of the discussion at the time was an artist that had regularly been tapped to do art for the Exalted line who had a habit of putting flashes of heart-embossed panties in her pictures. Speaking as another publisher, I will tell you now what I said then: yes, that happens constantly.
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Oct 23, 2017 03:55
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LatwPIAT posted:When the 'Martian Ranger' sample character ended up half-naked in Sunward, Posthuman Studios (who make Eclipse Phase) said that it happened because the artist didn't deliver to spec and they simply didn't have time to ask for it to be redone, so their options was to MSPaint over the bare skin, have a blank piece of art for a character, or publish what they got. That said it's really weird because most contracts surely stipulate that if work isn't delivered to the specifications, you don't have to pay for it? (And in return, have no right to use it. I know unpaid work is a serious issue for a lot of freelance artists.) No, you still have to pay for it. At least, according to the contracts we've always used. I mean, they spent hours doing work for you; I'd feel pretty hinky about not paying for it unless they blatantly did me wrong by drawing Nazi symbols on everything or something. Arguably if I have to tell someone three times "no this character is black they should be darker" and after three darkenings the color values of the piece no longer match" there is a sense in which I have not gotten value for money, but most people aren't going to be a hardass about it, because most people value not getting a rep as a hardass over $100 and also are afraid of artists.
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Oct 23, 2017 03:58
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Rand Brittain posted:No, you still have to pay for it. At least, according to the contracts we've always used. I mean, they spent hours doing work for you; I'd feel pretty hinky about not paying for it unless they blatantly did me wrong by drawing Nazi symbols on everything or something. Those sound like really bad contracts imo. "The work wasn't delivered to spec" in pretty much any other consumer relationship I've had on either the purchasing or selling side has invariably meant that the customer doesn't have to, and most likely won't, pay for it.
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Oct 23, 2017 04:01
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Kai Tave posted:Those sound like really bad contracts imo. "The work wasn't delivered to spec" in pretty much any other consumer relationship I've had on either the purchasing or selling side has invariably meant that the customer doesn't have to, and most likely won't, pay for it. I certainly could have written it that way if I thought it would be a good business decision, but I didn't, because I don't want to deal with an artist and have them feeling like I cheated them.
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Oct 23, 2017 04:09
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LeSquide posted:How well was White Wolf paying for art back in the 2e days? If it's close to the bottom of the bag, I can see how that situation happens. When they were hiring UDON and Imaginary Friends, I can't imagine they were paying a pittance, but I could be wrong. This is around the same time UDON was being hired by Capcom, I believe. I know some of their rates shot up astronomically over time, tho. I'm not an expert, but I have seen contracts that boil down to "the artist will redraw anything that was clearly communicated but not depicted correctly". I don't know how common that sort of thing is, but it frankly seems reasonable as long as the commission itself is reasonable. Artists can have it rough, no doubt, but a job is a job and an artist can always send roughs in advance for a client to preview and double-check details (and that, too, can be in a contract). Mind, I see art as a collaboration between the commissioner and the artist, and you have to be willing to trust an artist to make modest changes they think are good for the piece, but there are limits.
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Oct 23, 2017 04:20
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Seems like Yahtzee could do better without a middleman, presuming he has at least a fraction of the audience he used to. Late to this but: That's the problem. He DOES have only a fraction of the audience he used to have. His views have plummeted because, well, it turns out that doing the same drat thing for a goddamn decade gets tired and boring. At this point, I actually do doubt a patreon would pay better then what he's getting now. Dude peaked years back.
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Oct 23, 2017 05:27
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That Old Tree posted:And now Matt McFarland has been accused of raping a minor 18 years ago. Wait, what? The WoD Matthew McFarland?
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Oct 23, 2017 05:27
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gradenko_2000 posted:Mentioned just a little further down in that thread is where the dude that runs d20pfsrd makes a Facebook post asking Frank Mentzer if Jessica Price's allegations against him are true. FWIW he clarified on RPGnet: quote:I need to clarify something, I was trying to get Frank to outright state, in public, that he was calling Jessica a liar. I fully believe her but as said, I was trying to get him to actually say the words.
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Oct 23, 2017 05:33
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:If they make a Designer's & Dragons for the aughts, it's going to be a crazy read. Abusers & Aboleths
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Oct 23, 2017 05:34
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Comrade Koba posted:Abusers & Aboleths Ethics & Ettins
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Oct 23, 2017 05:41
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ProfessorCirno posted:Late to this but: That's the problem. He DOES have only a fraction of the audience he used to have. His views have plummeted because, well, it turns out that doing the same drat thing for a goddamn decade gets tired and boring. At this point, I actually do doubt a patreon would pay better then what he's getting now. Dude peaked years back.
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Oct 23, 2017 05:43
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Foglet posted:Wait, what? The WoD Matthew McFarland? Yep. He's just been demodded over at RPGnet while the rest of the mods and admins wait to hear back from Skotos on what to do.
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Oct 23, 2017 05:43
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Foglet posted:Wait, what? The WoD Matthew McFarland? uhh... Beast: The Primordial suddenly has a much... weirder context. Kai Tave posted:Yep. He's just been demodded over at RPGnet while the rest of the mods and admins wait to hear back from Skotos on what to do. You have a thread link for this? Kurieg fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Oct 23, 2017 |
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Oct 23, 2017 05:58
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Kurieg posted:uhh... It starts here in the same thread as the Mentzer discussion, read further down for mod responses.
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Oct 23, 2017 06:04
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 Jesus Christ
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Oct 23, 2017 06:14
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Kurieg posted:
Awh poo poo Well if it's true, he can at least have a bright future on NeoGAF, or other similar forums.
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Oct 23, 2017 06:28
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