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Monglo posted:Best a could find is this pretty lovely video, defending the stabber. That's more a matter of how brave and willing to risk injury the fighter is. Not everyone is up for that, and that's fine. If they die to a fascist in the good fight, they will be martyred, and as long as they knew it could happen coming in, one must salute sacrifices to fight fascism.
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Oct 23, 2017 10:59
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Regarde Aduck posted:You punch them in the hope you can prevent them coming to power. Failure means another world war. How do some of you not understand how dangerous fascism is? Wasn't Richard Spencer a kind of unknown guy before being sucker punched in the street ? I get the feeling it was that punching incident that really brought him some type of mainstream fame.
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Oct 23, 2017 11:46
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Fados posted:Wasn't Richard Spencer a kind of unknown guy before the being sucker punched in the street ? I get the feeling it was that punching incident that really brought him some type of mainstream fame. And it was really not a good thing for him.
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Oct 23, 2017 11:46
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Panzeh posted:And it was really not a good thing for him. Why do you think that? Isn't he obviously looking for a way to increase his platform for his nazi bullshit?
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Oct 23, 2017 11:49
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Not sure you do that by getting decked by a random black bloc member and then whining about how very unsafe you feel as a literal nazi. Nothing says master race more than crying about how much you need a safe space to talk about how much you want to gas the jews.
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Oct 23, 2017 12:02
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Regarde Aduck posted:You punch them in the hope you can prevent them coming to power. Failure means another world war. How do some of you not understand how dangerous fascism is? Don't you understand how dangerous it is if I'm not ideologically pure? Think about the judgmental emoji of my facebook friends! Fados posted:Wasn't Richard Spencer a kind of unknown guy before being sucker punched in the street ? I get the feeling it was that punching incident that really brought him some type of mainstream fame. This is nazi history rewriting in action. Spencer was huge as the face of the rising Alt-Right- he was getting weirdly glowing full page articles in New Zealand newspapers, for gently caress's sake- for years, way before Trump's presidency was even a glimmer on the horizon. Once someone decided to take him down a peg, the nazis needed a reason why their leader was so easily defeated, so they decided that a better narrative was that he was just some schlub who was inexplicably being interviewed by multiple media organisations on the street. Nazis abandon failed leaders like they abandon failed arguments. Don't let their propaganda change the past.
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Oct 23, 2017 12:09
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I'm sure I could find a bunch of early Hitler/NSDAP speeches crying about violent left thugs shutting down the free speech of the true deutsche volks. Ha! from Mr Goebbels himself: http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/angrif04.htm
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Oct 23, 2017 12:10
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Somfin posted:
Yeah I forgot about the Heil Trump stuff and I see your point abou him getting "cucked" by the black block guy delelitimizing him as a manly obergruppenfuhrer. Still it kind of helped the exposure of the movement in a way.
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Oct 23, 2017 12:15
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It exposed them as a bunch of nancy boys the majority of who wouldn't last five minutes in an actual fascist dictatorship.
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Oct 23, 2017 12:17
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Fados posted:Still it kind of helped the exposure of the movement in a way. It did, but not in a way they wanted. It showed this Aryan guy who photographed really well (from the tits up, at least, dude is really out of shape and flabby) was actually a puffy crybaby who couldn't take a punch and had to be escorted away from any actual violence. This was The Guy, y'see, he was Their Guy, and for all that? He was worse than average. Again, don't let nazi propaganda change the past. Spencer failed, he failed publicly, and he failed in a way that made it clear that people all over the world, millions upon millions of people, were just fine with violence being done to nazis. He set the precedent that they are trying desperately to roll back. Every day, even on these godless forums, nazis are trying to figure out new ways to get people to agree that punching nazis is a bad thing. That's a huge amount of their current effort, and it's all because their former Aryan Superman Richard Spencer couldn't take a punch.
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Oct 23, 2017 12:24
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I guess you're right. Anyways I feel that in the long term this stuff will be coming up again and again, in stronger and more refined ways (the overton window overall movement ever rightward these last few decades especially at the grass roots level) and that nazi punching, although morally in the right, can only function as a short term stopgap, valid as it might be.
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Oct 23, 2017 12:29
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Which is why other political movements exist. Antifa aren't a political party, campaigning on the single issue of punching nazis, they are one aspect of a rejection of fascism.
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Oct 23, 2017 12:33
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OwlFancier posted:Which is why other political movements exist. Antifa aren't a political party, campaigning on the single issue of punching nazis, they are one aspect of a rejection of fascism. And also why debates about nazi punching in the abstract always tend to turn into strawmaning shitshows. It's so easy to decontextualize stuff when we're talking about nazism (literally Hitler) versus "free speech". I do have my problems with the modern black block iteration, especially the more recent american vein, but they pale so much in relation to the abhorrent shittiness of the alt-right types that such critiques can only land flat. Anyways back on topic I found the last Contrapoints video amazing in an uncomfortable (actually good) way. Due to me not having a bunch (eg: almost none) direct contact with transpeople, seeing her process of gradual transformation, which the last video makes clear, made me realize I still have some instinctual guttural hangups when I'm actually presented with a transitioning person. Like some part of me still identifies with the 'degeneration' sensibilities she is actually criticizing in the video. It helped me a lot in this way, It's so reflexive, instructive, and eloquently put, really great work.
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Oct 23, 2017 12:48
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OwlFancier posted:Not sure you do that by getting decked by a random black bloc member and then whining about how very unsafe you feel as a literal nazi. Actually I think you'll find that Richard Spencer can't be anti-semitic because he thinks Israel is a model state QED libtards
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Oct 23, 2017 13:06
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Why do we give groups like Neo-Nazis the right to protest in the first place if they or Antifa are willing to commit violence upon each other or to innocent people in the surrounding area? Surely just not giving them the right to protest up and down the streets solves the issue without people being beaten with baseball bats in parking garages.
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Oct 23, 2017 14:07
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Stop trying to equate Nazis and Antifa you gigantic piece of poo poo.
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Oct 23, 2017 14:10
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Antifa is a practical strategy for getting nazis off the streets. Nazis are people who only want to kill.
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Oct 23, 2017 14:13
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:Why do we give groups like Neo-Nazis the right to protest in the first place if they or Antifa are willing to commit violence upon each other or to innocent people in the surrounding area? Setting aside the "opposing Nazis is just as bad as being a Nazi" framing, "we" don't do that because the people in charge are actually a-okay with Nazis marching up and down the street and beating people with baseball bats in parking garages.
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Oct 23, 2017 14:26
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:I just dont think punching Nazis is going to dissuade them from being Nazis. Maybe trying to convince them not to be Nazis would be a better off idea. Did I just accidentally jump back in the thread 30 pages? If you didn't win this argument 30 pages ago, I don't see why you would win it now. This is Nazi punching territory.
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Oct 23, 2017 16:19
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fallenturtle posted:Did I just accidentally jump back in the thread 30 pages? dont be mean to IFM he has learning difficulties and is an actual child
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Oct 23, 2017 16:19
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fallenturtle posted:Did I just accidentally jump back in the thread 30 pages? I was probated and missed the argument. I'm sorry.
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Oct 23, 2017 16:23
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OwlFancier posted:If you let nazis get to the point where they can pose a material threat you didn't start punching them early enough. I don't think punching them works in the long run. It might keep them hiding in their caves for a little while, but it seems they eventually come back out. I don't think arguing or having a discussion with them works either. Reviewing the last few months in this country I'd say the best weapon is doxing (which I know Antifa engages in besides punching), though crowds of internet vigilantes doxing has a tendency to dox the wrong people, so even that's problematic.
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Oct 23, 2017 16:42
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Punching is fairly sustainable though. Ultimately as I said it's one part of rejecting it. You engage people in good political organizations and ideologies, you suppress them as much as possible with as much state power as you can grab hold of and directly if you don't have that. And you keep at it, because fascism is as antithetical to society as serial killers.
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Oct 23, 2017 16:45
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:I was probated and missed the argument. I'm sorry. If you're really sorry, try posting the opposite of how you normally post from now on. Like, do a 180 on every political opinion you have, because they're all poo poo.
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Oct 23, 2017 16:49
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WampaLord posted:If you're really sorry, try posting the opposite of how you normally post from now on. Like, do a 180 on every political opinion you have, because they're all poo poo. Your avatar is anti-Semitic
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Oct 23, 2017 16:53
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:Your avatar is anti-Semitic you stupid loving idiot has it ever occurred to you that not everyone buys their own av, I mean look at mine, you think I loving chose this?
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Oct 23, 2017 16:54
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:Your avatar is anti-Semitic Someone bought it for me when I expressed anti-Nazi sentiments in GBS and mentioned that I was Jewish. So about that 180...
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Oct 23, 2017 16:54
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Yeah, it's just one aspect of reacting to the presence of fascism in society, like OF says. You have initiatives from groups like Life After Hate who can pick up the repentant memers and people who grow out of it, the police (if they deign to do their job) can get the violent terrorist nazis off the streets or whenever a nazi demo turns out to be illegal or starts loving with the cops, like a recent one in Sweden. Nazi punching is not a means to an end, it's a spontaneous act of community self-defense in the then and there.
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Oct 23, 2017 16:56
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To be fair, if I could be the dude in that av, I would. A giant burning globe that I could gleefully rub my hands over is deffo going on my amazon wishlist.
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Oct 23, 2017 16:56
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fallenturtle posted:I don't think punching them works in the long run. It might keep them hiding in their caves for a little while, but it seems they eventually come back out. I don't think arguing or having a discussion with them works either. Reviewing the last few months in this country I'd say the best weapon is doxing (which I know Antifa engages in besides punching), though crowds of internet vigilantes doxing has a tendency to dox the wrong people, so even that's problematic. Nazi-punching and antifa / black bloc tactics in general are attempts to treat the symptoms instead of the disease, and antifa activists (actifists?) pretty much know that. It's an effort to make recruiting and public manifestations more difficult, but you're not going to be able to stop the creation of new fascists without systemic change. A lot of fascist sentiment comes from people noticing (correctly!) that modern society is dysfunctional and alienating on a fundamental level, but then misdiagnosing what's causing that dysfunction and lashing out at its victims instead of its perpetrators. Without addressing the actual root causes of alienation, fascist sentiment will continue to arise in people and need to be combated. The root cause is capitalism  and/or systems of unjustified hierarchy generally 
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Oct 23, 2017 16:57
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JFairfax posted:you stupid loving idiot has it ever occurred to you that not everyone buys their own av, I mean look at mine, you think I loving chose this? I knew that. I thought it was funny to point out.
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Oct 23, 2017 17:03
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WampaLord posted:Someone bought it for me when I expressed anti-Nazi sentiments in GBS and mentioned that I was Jewish. I thought you'd bought it ironically and it was pretty loving hilarious. That someone bought it unironically is actually even funnier. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Oct 23, 2017 |
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Oct 23, 2017 17:04
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In the short-term at least, you can't deny the power of massive physical resistance to Nazis. Rallies since Charlottesville have been pathetic, with each one having sometimes 10 counter-protestors for every Nazi/alt-right/white supremacist/militiaman, and that ratio increases in the counter-protestor's favor every time. Don't make a space safe for Nazis. All that does is increase the chance they and their Nazi buddies show up to inflict some real harm. Marginalize them, doxx them, do whatever you need to do to keep them and their actions known and public. See Nazis on the street? Contact your local antifa group on twitter. Take pictures, post it on social media immediately with locations. Follow from a distance, and do not engage until you have backup. Take photos of faces, insignia, and any identifiable markings. Tweet/DM them directly to people like Shaun King, antifa groups, any public figure on the left. Treat them like you should a street harasser: make your day about ruining theirs, just as they no doubt have done in the past and will continue to do to countless people in the future. Hand-wringing and pearl clutching gets us no where. It does literally nothing because violence in the name of white supremacy is already a reality that we have to endure. Physical action against it isn't just the necessary thing to do, it's the morally just thing to do.
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Oct 23, 2017 17:05
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WampaLord posted:Someone bought it for me when I expressed anti-Nazi sentiments in GBS and mentioned that I was Jewish. Punching nazis is morally right but ethically wrong.
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Oct 23, 2017 17:06
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:Punching nazis is morally right but ethically wrong. no it loving isnt
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Oct 23, 2017 17:06
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Somfin posted:You say that fighting back against nazis encourages more of them to become violent. Would you like to provide literally any evidence that this is the case? Well, they DID plow a car into a crowd.... on the other hand it seems apparent that when the violence reaches that level the cops can't turn their backs, so even if the law isn't on the side of the antifas, there seems to be a ceiling of how violent folks can get until white people start going to jail. OwlFancier posted:Punching is fairly sustainable though. When I first started posting in this thread I was anti-punching. After C-ville I saw that with enough punching and what not future events started getting canceled... but the Nazis are still here and now Spencer is organizing again. I don't think direct action will have any permanent effect, well short of killing domestic Nazis, which I hope our country never gets to. The battle is with the general populace and the weapon is the media and currently we're losing. Who our current PUSA is doesn't help either. fallenturtle fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Oct 23, 2017 |
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Oct 23, 2017 17:08
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America is a fascist country with a Fascist ruling class, police state, and a fascist army. hope that helps as well as racism Fascism is identified by the close integration of private companies with a highly militarised society. reverence for the military is a key element of fascist societies.
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Oct 23, 2017 17:11
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fallenturtle posted:Well, they DID plow a car into a crowd.... on the other hand it seems apparent that when the violence reaches that level the cops can't turn their backs, so even if the law isn't on the side of the antifas, there seems to be a ceiling of how violent folks can get until white people start going to jail. Maybe the FBI should label the Neo-Nazis under Richard Spencer as a domestic terrorist group and let the security services deal with it.
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Oct 23, 2017 17:13
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:Punching nazis is morally right but ethically wrong. Punching Nazis is morally just. Ethically right. And also cool as hell and really funny too. Dunno how many times you need to be told that but here we are again.
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Oct 23, 2017 17:13
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:Maybe the FBI should label the Neo-Nazis under Richard Spencer as a domestic terrorist group and let the security services deal with it. the security services in america are racist and fascist.
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Oct 23, 2017 17:14
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