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Doomfist needed to become a tank, straight up. Sombra needed to be a support. Out of the current crop of DPS, I could only see no one actually needing a buff. Especially Mei. As it is, the way she works would make her bitterly oppressive at lower ranks or with non-competative players. Same with Reaper. Those characters would need changed abilities and possibly Mercy style changes to make them more viable for numbers tuning. McCree, Soldier 76 and Tracer actually have perfectly adequate skill floors and ceilings.
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Oct 24, 2017 03:04
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Kokoro Wish posted:Out of the current crop of DPS, I could only see no one actually needing a buff. Especially Mei. As it is, the way she works would make her bitterly oppressive at lower ranks or with non-competative players. Same with Reaper. Those characters would need changed abilities and possibly Mercy style changes to make them more viable for numbers tuning. The whole problem with the game's balance is that they take what you're describing here into consideration in the first place. Besides, every "oppressive" Junkrat or Symmetra-esque character in the low ranks is also insanely popular at those ranks, so I'm not sure it's even entirely a negative. The problem with OP characters -- like, actually OP characters, as in their limits are too much higher than anyone else's -- is that there's no amount of getting good that will counteract the advantage they have over other heroes. This is manifestly not true of Junkrat or Symmetra. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 03:13
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It's like Paul in Tekken, or 6-pool in StarCraft: it's not a design flaw, it's just a rite of passage and the very act of figuring out that it's beatable and how to do it is good for your development as a player.
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Oct 24, 2017 03:21
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FaustianQ posted:I mean the general idea behind it is that he can actually use his other abilities as something other than a more interruptible and complicated escape. The problem with Doomfist is that he's Roadhog, but instead of pulling the enemy to his team, he pulls himself to the enemy team.
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Oct 24, 2017 03:32
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Kokoro Wish posted:Doomfist needed to become a tank, straight up. Sombra needed to be a support. sombra makes as much sense in support as symmetra does but doomfist would never, ever make sense as a tank also mei isn't dps
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Oct 24, 2017 03:50
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With tuning, Doomfist could easily have been a positioning and disruption tank. Especially with his punching = shields mechanic. Diving in and knocking around people, putting them out of position, knocking people into your team and splitting a group. He actually makes more sense to me for a tank than D. Va. does. Thing is he would have been treading over Winston's turf and probably be doing a better job of it, so we get what we get. Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 03:59
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he provides less protection for your team than even roadhog and his whole kit is taking him away from your team. he's also incredibly likely to die. even before he got nerfed, doomfist was dying more than pretty much anyone
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Oct 24, 2017 04:01
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Well, I found somewhere that Doomfist actually feels decent: Anubis, especially the second point. The numerous cramped spaces and short sightlines mean he can punch anyone who sees him, and the terrain is pretty much perfect for his escapes as well.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:51
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Main Paineframe posted:The problem with Doomfist is that he's Roadhog, but instead of pulling the enemy to his team, he pulls himself to the enemy team. The irony is thats what makes him being able to one shot balanced. The problem is kinda they've screwed with his hitbox way too much, and now actually landing punches is a lot more difficult. Honestly I think they could revert the Doomfist changes, save for him punching people through vehicles, and it'd be fine.
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Oct 24, 2017 06:19
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 On one hand,  On the other hand, this was all stupid luck. Was on Eichenwalde, and I'd lob random pipes as I was walking around and score surprise kills, chuck a few pipes down a hallway and clear out an entire firefight, there was a point where I got a triple kill off Junkrat's loving death bombs.
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Oct 24, 2017 06:23
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So to everyone saying Mei sucks, (which i'm not even arguing with, I'm scrubby and acknowledge it) Is Orisa good? And by that I mean a solid pick versus a reinhardt for main team tank. She feels solid, but so did Mei to me. I had another tank draught in the matches I played today, so I bit the bullet and finally gave her a shot. Turns out I like her combo of putting down walls and shooting people in the brainstem from a distance even more than the ice queen.
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Oct 24, 2017 08:39
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orisa is definitively not good but she's not terrible or anything; she can work if you play to her strengths. you're better off using her on defense (she's way better at defending a single point than at advancing) or for the double shield bastion cheese strat. rein and winston are both better main tanks in general but that doesn't mean she can't work the main thing to keep in mind with bad/niche heroes is not to play them outside of their strengths (the obvious example being don't play poo poo like torb/sym on offense). that's how you get the most success out of them
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Oct 24, 2017 08:45
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drat, I was hopeful. Still gonna play her when we need a tank, though. And that's good advice on the off heroes, manatee. I'll try to be aware of her weaknesses. Being a barn sized target seems to be one of them.
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Oct 24, 2017 09:06
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The whole problem with the game's balance is that they take what you're describing here into consideration in the first place. I laugh at everyone who think characters like Junkrat and Symmetra are overpowered. Do I get killed by them sometimes? Yes. Why? Because the Symmetra got the jump on me, or I blindly wandered into a Junkrat trap or a small room he was spamming out of. Symmetra has to get into a very dangerous place to laser people to death and Junkrat's M1 is insanely hard to hit small characters with, leaving him somewhat dependent on his mines for close range defense and basically helpless at long range. Junkrat and Symmetra are exactly as dangerous as you let them be, while genuinely overpowered characters will ruin you even if you're on the ball and paying attention. DeliciousCookie posted:The irony is thats what makes him being able to one shot balanced. The problem is kinda they've screwed with his hitbox way too much, and now actually landing punches is a lot more difficult. Honestly I think they could revert the Doomfist changes, save for him punching people through vehicles, and it'd be fine. I've been playing FFA a lot lately, which is somewhere Doomfist shines at his best because he's not going to get a whole team focusing him down and he leans pretty heavily on bursty eliminations to oneshot all the squishy characters in that mode. Thing is...even in a mode that's very much his element, I find myself genuinely goddamn impressed when a Doomfist does even somewhat well. The skill investment needed to make him work is currently far too much considering what you get out of it compared to other characters who can do his job. Slime fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 10:04
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Main Paineframe posted:Well, I found somewhere that Doomfist actually feels decent: Anubis, especially the second point. The numerous cramped spaces and short sightlines mean he can punch anyone who sees him, and the terrain is pretty much perfect for his escapes as well. I feel like there's a point to be made that the characters generally agreed to have the most issues/flaws (Doomfist/Mei/Torb/Sym/Bastion) all seem to function their best on 2CP maps.
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Oct 24, 2017 12:37
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Manatee Cannon posted:he provides less protection for your team than even roadhog and his whole kit is taking him away from your team. he's also incredibly likely to die. even before he got nerfed, doomfist was dying more than pretty much anyone Doomfist could easily provide protection to his team if his shields were also applied to his team, not just himself. Have 30 shields applied for Doomfist on move start up, have 30 shields applied for Doomfist and team when they connect. He'd still be an offtank but he'd naturally synergize with Dive. Not saying it's a good idea, but it's also not impossible to make Doomfist's gameplay syngerize with being a tank. But... Kokoro Wish posted:Sombra needed to be a support. Sombra would never work as a support because fights don't happen on healthpacks, and it'd be extremely disadvantageous to have to rely on healthpacks for your primary healing. Her being more focused as a DPS character, and thereby unbundling her only value as an EMP generator makes more sense. Honestly she'd be fine if her gun had better bloom characteristics and her casting time coming in and out of invisibility was much quicker, as well as quieter. The only further tweaks would be to transponder behavior.
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Oct 24, 2017 13:27
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FaustianQ posted:Sombra would never work as a support because fights don't happen on healthpacks, and it'd be extremely disadvantageous to have to rely on healthpacks for your primary healing. Sorry but this is wrong. Pro teams (that my team have shamelessly copied for certain strats) use healthpacks as primary healing, we always end up fighting on the packs on the maps we run Sombra. If anything Sombra is just annoying because you're only ever going to want her on those maps.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:38
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Ever since this current event kicked off I feel like I've been playing worse and worse. What do you all generally do when you feel like you're in a funk like this? Take up a new hero, or just put the game down for a while? I think part of the problem is that I feel like I'm mostly logging on to grind lootboxes and playing only halfheartedly.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:06
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Wrist Watch posted:I feel like there's a point to be made that the characters generally agreed to have the most issues/flaws (Doomfist/Mei/Torb/Sym/Bastion) all seem to function their best on 2CP maps. Well, a lot of the worse-off characters function best in tightly confined spaces where they can force people to engage them in one range and from one direction. Mei, Junkrat, and Sym are all at their nastiest when they can hole up in a cozy little room or hallway on a side route where they can control the entire space, and Doomfist loves smaller areas that are just big enough for him to use his mobility while not leaving enough room to dodge him or engage him at range. The only places where those kinds of areas tend to matter, though, are around static points such as 2CP maps and the first point of hybrid maps. KOTH maps are open and centralized, with flanking routes that are far from the point and barely ever used, while payload maps tend to draw the action to the wide-open central lane that the payload follows.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:09
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Sombra is annoying because her entire kit is NOPE. “Caught me out of position?” NOPE “You need a health pack right now?” NOPE “Here comes Mercy to Rez!” NOPE “Don’t worry guys, Reinhardt will prote-NOPE!” And somehow Mei is still more annoying to play against.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:16
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dogstile posted:Sorry but this is wrong. Pro teams (that my team have shamelessly copied for certain strats) use healthpacks as primary healing, we always end up fighting on the packs on the maps we run Sombra. If anything Sombra is just annoying because you're only ever going to want her on those maps. Except as you pointed out there are specific maps you run Sombra on, far stretch to imagine her as a main healer like Mercy, Ana, Zen or Lucio. There are maps with health packs close enough to the objective to matter, but unless you specifically build around Sombra on certain maps I don't see her as a proper replacement for Lucio, Zen, Ana or Mercy. For the record, I don't see Symmetra as a support character either, rather defense.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:21
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Montalvo posted:Ever since this current event kicked off I feel like I've been playing worse and worse. What do you all generally do when you feel like you're in a funk like this? Take up a new hero, or just put the game down for a while? I think part of the problem is that I feel like I'm mostly logging on to grind lootboxes and playing only halfheartedly.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:23
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Bust Rodd posted:Sombra is annoying because her entire kit is NOPE. Thankfully nobody is good at her or Mei so usually when they get picked it ends up in a loss for their team
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Oct 24, 2017 15:37
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I've gotten to be a pretty good sombra and she's a lot of fun to play
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Oct 24, 2017 15:55
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Finally got a PC that can allow me to enjoy this game and now I'm trying to learn heroes. Currently doing ok with Soldier 76, Orisa, and D.va, but I'm wanting to learn Zarya, Roadhog, and maybe an attacker like McCree or Sombra. One thing I've noticed at my lovely mmr is that Genji and Reaper are way too hard to deal with so anything that practically shits on them is fine with me.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:57
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I originally picked Symmetra because I couldn’t hit Genji/Tracer/Lucio when they were stalling on point and being hyper evasive and she literally carried me from Bronze to Gold. So that’s my recommendation.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:22
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Dizz posted:Finally got a PC that can allow me to enjoy this game and now I'm trying to learn heroes. Zarya is good against Genji with practice, especially at lower tiers where they don't realize they can't deflect her beam. Get a headset and bellow "POWEEEER!!" when your energy goes past 90%.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:43
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Also Winston. Low level genjis dash in without being sure they can confirm the kill, when they do this its pretty much rude to not jump on them and shock them to death (because if they don't get a kill, they don't get to dash away)
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Oct 24, 2017 16:52
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FaustianQ posted:Doomfist could easily provide protection to his team if his shields were also applied to his team, not just himself. Have 30 shields applied for Doomfist on move start up, have 30 shields applied for Doomfist and team when they connect. He'd still be an offtank but he'd naturally synergize with Dive. Not saying it's a good idea, but it's also not impossible to make Doomfist's gameplay syngerize with being a tank. that's not a tank thing; that's basically a broken version of symmetra's old shield granting mechanic I'm getting the feeling people don't understand the role tanks actually have because doomfist does not fit with that at all
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Oct 24, 2017 18:26
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Slime posted:I laugh at everyone who think characters like Junkrat and Symmetra are overpowered. I keep saying Junkrat is overpowered because he's had a +3 to +4% winrate over average for the last month and a half, which is a full percent ahead of the non torb/sym pack (torb and sym have clear confounding factors that make their winrate data unreliable).
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Oct 24, 2017 18:45
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The Blue Caboose posted:I keep saying Junkrat is overpowered because he's had a +3 to +4% winrate over average for the last month and a half, which is a full percent ahead of the non torb/sym pack (torb and sym have clear confounding factors that make their winrate data unreliable). what happens if you filter those stats to grandmaster only
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Oct 24, 2017 19:32
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The Blue Caboose posted:I keep saying Junkrat is overpowered because he's had a +3 to +4% winrate over average for the last month and a half, which is a full percent ahead of the non torb/sym pack (torb and sym have clear confounding factors that make their winrate data unreliable). Don't use winrates as your sole metric for how powerful a character is. And before anybody thinks they're clever: Mercy has far more pointing toward "loving broken" than just her winrates.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:35
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He has the highest winrate behind symmetra, torbjorn, and orisa in every bracket EXCEPT bronze... even shadder2k was complaining about how obnoxious junkrat is at GM. There won't be a moment of divine transcendence where junkrat is "no longer a problem", sadly, he is a part of playing the game at any level now.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:36
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No Wave posted:He has the highest winrate behind symmetra, torbjorn, and orisa in every bracket EXCEPT bronze... even shadder2k was complaining about how obnoxious junkrat is at GM. 
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Oct 24, 2017 19:37
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even pro players think junkrat is crazy good right now
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Oct 24, 2017 19:39
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looking at Overbuff it looks like Tracer is in the bottom 8 heroes in the game by winrate... and Lucio's in the bottom 6 much as i would enjoy using this data to argue that Tracer needs buffs, i'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that some combination of reporting bias and comp play being fundamentally goofy and disorganized is at work here
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Oct 24, 2017 19:40
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:what happens if you filter those stats to grandmaster only He's consistently above 56% W/R for the last 6 months in Grandmaster, and 57-58% within the last 3 months in Grandmaster. Average w/r across all classes in GM is 54.5% Manatee Cannon posted:that's not a tank thing; that's basically a broken version of symmetra's old shield granting mechanic Didn't the initial expectation of Doomfist as dive fall away when it became apparent he was super vulnerable and it was better for Doomfist to just peel Tracers and Genjis off supports? Tanks are supposed to either negate damage or provide cover either through shielding or a threat radius around them, Doomfist has such a threat radius but lacks any ability to mitigate damage for his team.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:45
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:looking at Overbuff it looks like Tracer is in the bottom 8 heroes in the game by winrate... and Lucio's in the bottom 6 they say tracer is the only hero that has never been directly changed in any way. perhaps she is the only balanced hero in overwatch
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Oct 24, 2017 19:48
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FaustianQ posted:He's consistently above 56% W/R for the last 6 months in Grandmaster, and 57-58% within the last 3 months in Grandmaster. Average w/r across all classes in GM is 54.5% You know, setting Junkrat aside for a second, I'm curious now how much of the GM winrate numbers for heroes in that data set diverge from the average winrate of GM players in general -- given the likelihood that they're playing against Masters some significant portion of the time.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:50
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Snazzy Frocks posted:they say tracer is the only hero that has never been directly changed in any way. perhaps she is the only balanced hero in overwatch Reinhardt's only had bugfixes, I think, and I don't remember any gameplay changes to Hanzo although I might be forgetting something. e: I forgot they messed with what ults are shut down by hack / EMP a few weeks ago. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 19:52
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