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Goon Danton posted:It's literally easier to defend Richard Spencer than it is to defend Sargon. Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it's a ethos
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Oct 24, 2017 12:04
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Somfin posted:I'd seen an extract, and I thought that I'd overstated it, but no, wow, what the gently caress. I'm sacrificing my youtube recs on the altar of being strictly correct for this, I hope y'all appreciate it. It's a response to Laci Green's comment on Rogers, and if you've ever wanted Laci loving Green to sound bearable, give this a listen. jesus. what a loving moron and rear end in a top hat. why is he defending these assholes so much. and on your edit. of course he thinks that, he has a broken view of masculinity.
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Oct 24, 2017 12:30
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Who threw the first car, do you suppose? Who swung the first bat? When someone was trying to dodge out of the way of the car they hit it with their hand or foot, making the car bowling them over into self defense 
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Oct 24, 2017 16:03
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ungulateman posted:someone died, you fuckwit, and it sure as hell wasn't a nazi Yes, that's terrible, clearly. What's your point? That antifa should stop protesting Nazis? Maluco Marinero posted:not empty quoting. If you think driving a car into a crowd could ever be self defense I dunno what to tell you fallenturtle. I never claimed that I thought driving a car into a crowd was self-defense. Lemniscate Blue posted:Who threw the first car, do you suppose? Who swung the first bat? From a media narrative, if you want one side painted as the bad guys and the other as the good guys, knowing who started the violence that day matters. fallenturtle fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 17:14
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Dapper_Swindler posted:jesus. what a loving moron and rear end in a top hat. why is he defending these assholes so much. and on your edit. of course he thinks that, he has a broken view of masculinity. Every time I try watching Sargon I'm disgusted and have to turn it off 15 seconds in. Clearly I'm the intolerant one here
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Oct 24, 2017 17:19
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fallenturtle posted:From a media narrative, if you want one side painted as the bad guys and the other as the good guys, knowing who started the violence that day matters. The fact that someone ploughed a car into a crowd of people should tell you drat well who started the violence.
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Oct 24, 2017 17:52
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fallenturtle posted:From a media narrative, if you want one side painted as the bad guys and the other as the good guys, knowing who started the violence that day matters. this kind of ambiguity about who punched first plays deliberately into nazi propaganda about being provoked by the violent left. meanwhile, the nazis showed up with helmets, shields, clubs etc. the dipshits who got arrested for shooting at a protester were deliberately driving around provoking people until one punched back, at which point they felt justified into using a gun. thankfully the law saw the situation differently their entire plan is to run around screaming at people and doing as much as possible into getting people to throw a punch, at which point they will claim oppression and self defense and attack. it's an extremely transparent tactic that works wonders on the ignorantly undecided and secret nazi sympathizers
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Oct 24, 2017 17:56
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*anti nazi protesters get run over by nazi in car at protest* "Yes but have you considered that you're not making it clear that the nazis started it, you'll never win the media battle if you can't get run over a little bit more tragically, have you considered taping babies to you and getting shot to death by a man in a replica SS uniform who is heiling with the other hand?"
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Oct 24, 2017 18:07
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OwlFancier posted:The fact that someone ploughed a car into a crowd of people should tell you drat well who started the violence. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but weren't people already getting into fisticuffs before the car attack occurred? boner confessor posted:this kind of ambiguity about who punched first plays deliberately into nazi propaganda about being provoked by the violent left. meanwhile, the nazis showed up with helmets, shields, clubs etc. So why not flip the tables and give the Nazis a dose of their own medicine, minus the dipshittery part?
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Oct 24, 2017 18:16
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fallenturtle posted:Forgive me if I'm wrong, but weren't people already getting into fisticuffs before the car attack occurred? yes but running into a crowd of people with a vehicle is in no way a justified response nazis claim there is a spectrum of: free speech ---------- more free speech -------------- still free speech even if im telling you your mother is a whore ---- ^ someone does a violence ------------ all violence is on the table now nazis want other people to break past the critical ^ point of violence so that they can then feel morally justified in beating teenagers with rods and attempted murder. this is because they are cowards. if you've ever seen two men in each others faces yelling for the other to swing first, this is what the nazis wish to happen and it is a coward's method of fighting the nazi who murdered heather heyer with his car was looking for a situation where he could run people over and get away with it. these men do not want to face consequences for their violence, because they are cowards fallenturtle posted:So why not flip the tables and give the Nazis a dose of their own medicine, minus the dipshittery part? well people already punch nazis but this causes endless jackasses to pipe up online with their opinions re: how nazi punching is not good, actually, despite almost a hundred years of historical evidence to the contrary boner confessor fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 18:22
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fallenturtle posted:So why not flip the tables and give the Nazis a dose of their own medicine, minus the dipshittery part? Can you write any text about why the leftists-are-comparably-bad-because-they-might-have-provoked-it narrative is convincing to you in this case? I don't know whether you currently think this but some of your posts seem to be written from the stance of "that's an unsurprising opinion to have."
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Oct 24, 2017 18:24
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OwlFancier posted:*anti nazi protesters get run over by nazi in car at protest* There have been numerous events that involved fighting between antifas and fas. At one event, a car was used to attack. What I'm attempting to argue about is that to effectively win the this war against Nazis the anti-nazis also need to win the war of perception in the media and one way to do that is to clearly paint the Nazis as the perpetrators. Saying its ok to punch nazis because they are terrible humans only gets you so far when you are trying to convince the average American who believes freedom of speech and assembly are paramount American values. So if fights where people aren't hit by cars is the norm, why are you using the car attack to shut down my argument? You're acting like the Nazis first move hence forth will be to drive people over in a car when in reality that attack was most likely an exception.
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Oct 24, 2017 18:28
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fallenturtle posted:There have been numerous events that involved fighting between antifas and fas. At one event, a car was used to attack. What I'm attempting to argue about is that to effectively win the this war against Nazis the anti-nazis also need to win the war of perception in the media and one way to do that is to clearly paint the Nazis as the perpetrators. Saying its ok to punch nazis because they are terrible humans only gets you so far when you are trying to convince the average American who believes freedom of speech and assembly are paramount American values. no, this is really dumb. there's no war to be won, nobody likes nazis. the nazis are trying and failing to gain public sympathy by painting themselves as the victims, but their turboangry young white guy membership can't wait to crack skulls in a legally permissible way so this strategy will never work the only reason that it appears the nazis are making any ground is because of useful idiots and questionable centrists who want to say that antifa is just as bad as the nazis. these are the exact same people who were saying that civil rights protesters were just as bad as the police fifty years ago and that really, we all just need to simmer down and recommit to the status quo
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Oct 24, 2017 18:31
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remember this is what Nazis do and want:
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Oct 24, 2017 18:40
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boner confessor posted:yes but running into a crowd of people with a vehicle is in no way a justified response Of course not and I didn't claim it was. quote:nazis claim there is a spectrum of: Doesn't that mean punching Nazis first is just playing into their scheme? boner confessor posted:no, this is really dumb. there's no war to be won, nobody likes nazis. the nazis are trying and failing to gain public sympathy by painting themselves as the victims, but their turboangry young white guy membership can't wait to crack skulls in a legally permissible way so this strategy will never work. Do you or do you not want Nazis protesting and having rallies? I was under the impression the latter.. so how is that not a war? quote:the only reason that it appears the nazis are making any ground is because of useful idiots and questionable centrists who want to say that antifa is just as bad as the nazis. these are the exact same people who were saying that civil rights protesters were just as bad as the police fifty years ago and that really, we all just need to simmer down and recommit to the status quo If you don't want to fight that perception then just ignore me.
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Oct 24, 2017 18:52
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It's a hard sell to say that every person that identifies with nationalism desires for mass murders and genocide.
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Oct 24, 2017 18:52
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fallenturtle posted:Doesn't that mean punching Nazis first is just playing into their scheme? sort of, but at the same time, they're getting punched, mocked, and shamed. the "i WANT you to punch me  " is an act of desperation. and also, ok, i will punch youfallenturtle posted:Do you or do you not want Nazis protesting and having rallies? I was under the impression the latter.. so how is that not a war? i dont think you know what a war is also, have you ever heard of the westboro baptist church? they are a super crazy christian cult who does the same thing these nazis are doing, screaming and yelling and trying to provoke people so they can retaliate (in court). they're still universally despised, because their core message is hateful and flawed fallenturtle posted:If you don't want to fight that perception then just ignore me. no, i'm going to make fun of you for being a useful idiot who makes bad arguments until you learn to make different arguments or stop posting
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Oct 24, 2017 18:54
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Krotera posted:Can you write any text about why the leftists-are-comparably-bad-because-they-might-have-provoked-it narrative is convincing to you in this case? I don't know whether you currently think this but some of your posts seem to be written from the stance of "that's an unsurprising opinion to have." I don't think the leftists are bad and even if they throw the first punch its clear the provocation is coming from the Nazis, but a large portion of the country believe the Nazis have a Constitutional right to assemble and protest despite their heinous views. I DO believe that simply punching Nazis is an endless mission because while it does help dissuade the Kekistanis from showing up to future events, the true Nazis wounds heal and they come back out because they can. If the goal is to make them stop coming out and protesting, then perception needs to change because right now many Americas think they have a right to.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:05
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fallenturtle posted:I don't think the leftists are bad and even if they throw the first punch its clear the provocation is coming from the Nazis, but a large portion of the country believe the Nazis have a Constitutional right to assemble and protest despite their heinous views. I DO believe that simply punching Nazis is an endless mission because while it does help dissuade the Kekistanis from showing up to future events, the true Nazis wounds heal and they come back out because they can. If the goal is to make them stop coming out and protesting, then perception needs to change because right now many Americas think they have a right to. a large portion of this country believes angels constantly surround us and that the moon landing was a hoax. you can't keep trying to persuade the unpersuadable, that is a waste of time - it's much more effective to assert reality and continue to assert it, browbeating people into silence if you have to. people greatly opposed civil rights at the time but you make fun of the people who oppose it, you keep making fun of them, and eventually - people still don't support civil rights in this country, but they've at least been carefully taught to pretend to support it meanwhile, i think you're fooling yourself into thinking that violence doesn't suppress nazi protests. these dicks are always going to be around, like the kkk, but you can make them look like fools and chickenshits very easily https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnXBeQwmmrc
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Oct 24, 2017 19:07
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fallenturtle posted:I don't think the leftists are bad and even if they throw the first punch its clear the provocation is coming from the Nazis, but a large portion of the country believe the Nazis have a Constitutional right to assemble and protest despite their heinous views. I DO believe that simply punching Nazis is an endless mission because while it does help dissuade the Kekistanis from showing up to future events, the true Nazis wounds heal and they come back out because they can. If the goal is to make them stop coming out and protesting, then perception needs to change because right now many Americas think they have a right to. What would have became of Germany were more Nazis punched, I wonder. Also, many Americans have dogfood for brains. gently caress'em.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:08
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Monglo posted:It's a hard sell to say that every person that identifies with nationalism desires for mass murders and genocide. it's easy to say if they're an American nationalist because the American nation is a mass murdering, genocidal army of evil.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:11
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boner confessor posted:a large portion of this country believes angels constantly surround us and that the moon landing was a hoax. you can't keep trying to persuade the unpersuadable, that is a waste of time - it's much more effective to assert reality and continue to assert it, browbeating people into silence if you have to. people greatly opposed civil rights at the time but you make fun of the people who oppose it, you keep making fun of them, and eventually - people still don't support civil rights in this country, but they've at least been carefully taught to pretend to support it The Racist Tree is more accurate than people want to believe, I think Truly a parable for the ages
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Oct 24, 2017 19:12
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boner confessor posted:i dont think you know what a war is Then tell me why this isn't a conflict between two groups? Is that not what a war is? quote:also, have you ever heard of the westboro baptist church? they are a super crazy christian cult who does the same thing these nazis are doing, screaming and yelling and trying to provoke people so they can retaliate (in court). they're still universally despised, because their core message is hateful and flawed quote:no, i'm going to make fun of you for being a useful idiot who makes bad arguments until you learn to make different arguments or stop posting
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Oct 24, 2017 19:12
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fallenturtle posted:Then tell me why this isn't a conflict between two groups? Is that not what a war is? ...no fallenturtle posted:I'm quite familiar with them. Why isn't there a group of people who go to their protests and punch them? because they'll sue the pants off you, and also because they aren't advocating for racial repression or genocide. ironically, the WBC is far better organized and militant than scratch groups of internet nazis fallenturtle posted:A useful idiot implies I'm helping their cause. How am I helping their cause? by advocating for the idea that nazis can see reason by dialogue instead of violence. this is well trodden ground historically, you cannot convince nazis to moderate their views. there is no compromise for ethnic cleansing
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Oct 24, 2017 19:15
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fallenturtle posted:I DO believe that simply punching Nazis is an endless mission because while it does help dissuade the Kekistanis from showing up to future events, the true Nazis wounds heal and they come back out because they can. And we've got "no true nazi." fallenturtle, there is no difference between the "kekistanis" (which I think you are using to denote internet-driven "ironic" nazis) and actual nazis. Both groups are weak, angry white male bullies looking for something weaker than themselves to feel justified in picking on. Please define a difference between the two that makes punching one ineffective and the other effective.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:24
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boner confessor posted:a large portion of this country believes angels constantly surround us and that the moon landing was a hoax. While a large portion of this country has spiritual beliefs, I'm fairly certain the amount of people who think the moon landing was a hoax are small minority. quote:you can't keep trying to persuade the unpersuadable, that is a waste of time - it's much more effective to assert reality and continue to assert it, browbeating people into silence if you have to. people greatly opposed civil rights at the time but you make fun of the people who oppose it, you keep making fun of them, and eventually - people still don't support civil rights in this country, but they've at least been carefully taught to pretend to support it YES, make fun of them, I've been saying that all along... but making fun of someone works best when there is an audience to laugh at them. They pretend to support civil rights because of public perception. You have two different attacks: beat them into submission or shame them into submission. The latter requires public support. But when the public values freedom of speech over hate speech you aren't going to get their support through violence. I think you underestimate how persuadable the gen pop is. quote:meanwhile, i think you're fooling yourself into thinking that violence doesn't suppress nazi protests. these dicks are always going to be around, like the kkk, but you can make them look like fools and chickenshits very easily
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Oct 24, 2017 19:28
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Huzanko posted:What would have became of Germany were more Nazis punched, I wonder. I doubt it would have changed much.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:30
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Thank you for reminding me why I have fallenturtle on ignore, I’d almost forgotten. But you can stop quoting them now.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:31
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boner confessor posted:...no quote:because they'll sue the pants off you, and also because they aren't advocating for racial repression or genocide. ironically, the WBC is far better organized and militant than scratch groups of internet nazis quote:by advocating for the idea that nazis can see reason by dialogue instead of violence. this is well trodden ground historically, you cannot convince nazis to moderate their views. there is no compromise for ethnic cleansing Either Nazis can be shamed into hiding or they can't be... make up your loving mind.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:36
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fallenturtle posted:Either Nazis can be shamed into hiding or they can't be... make up your loving mind. im sensing you're getting confused and distressed here you can make fun of nazis. you can also punch them. you can do both at once. both are effective you are advocating that people can be persuaded to reject nazis. too late, people already reject nazis. the issue here is people thinking the nazi-punchers are just as bad as the nazis. this is because they, and anyone who advocates a "let's not punch nazis" agenda, is just a weak centrist who advocates for rational decency and a compromise between those who oppose ethnic cleansing and those who support it. or, they secretly sympathize with the nazis but are too hesitant to openly say so there is no compromise to be had with nazis, they've been attacked before and will be attacked again. this is the proper way to deal with them. wringing your hands about the esteem of the people or whatever is just indicative of a certain moral weakness when it comes to defending the rights of the minority in the face of popular (white) disapproval
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Oct 24, 2017 19:41
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Don't punch Nazis because you disagree with their views. Punch Nazis because they are genetically inferior, they don't know their place, and because they are cursed by the creator of this universe.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:43
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Midig posted:IFM. It's not about deconversion, it's about decreasing their influence. If they get leg space they will just become emboldened and grow. There are plenty of lower class white people who can't wait to blame all their problems on the blacks, Jews, gays etc. and all they need is a little courage. We can't allow that. I think racism is actually a bigger problem among wealthier whites, who trend more towards being Republican than poorer ones. Like, everyone has this mental image of a racist redneck (and those obviously do exist), but most of these folks are just suburbanites. The main reason I mention this is because I think it's actually harmful to cast racism/bigotry as primarily something practiced by the poor/working class. It basically lets the more guilty and influential middle/upper-class racists off the hook through omission.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:45
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Somfin posted:And we've got "no true nazi." One group believes that whites are being treated unfairly and that their culture is under attack + yadda yadda SJWs feminist LMSM whine whine whine. In many ways they are shitlords just taking it up to the next level, but when poo poo hits the fan, like being punched or worse, they bow out because they are cowards and lack the conviction of their beliefs. The other group is more your classic neo-Nazi racist who gets tattoos of swastikas and what not, burn down churches, light crosses on fire... are hardcore about their beliefs. I think those folks will keep coming back after you punch them. In reality there are probably lots of folks who fall in between as well. Essentially you have your JonTrons and you have your MillennialWoes.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:45
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Ytlaya posted:
yeah, this is the same thing that causes americans to think of racism as an exclusively southern problem. it's always someone else who is the racist, i couldn't possibly be racist (even though i went to a school that was 95% white and live in a neighborhood with no nonwhite people and secretly i believe that people on welfare just need to get jobs)
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Oct 24, 2017 19:48
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Avenging_Mikon posted:Thank you for reminding me why I have fallenturtle on ignore, I’d almost forgotten. But you can stop quoting them now. Can someone remind me why Avenging_Mikon has me on ignore? I honestly don't understand why people get so vile over the idea that to fight Nazis it helps to have public perception on your side.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:49
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fallenturtle posted:MillennialWoes. I was in the process of writing a millennial-themed Twilight Zone-esque short story compilation called Millennial Woe and now I have to change the title
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Oct 24, 2017 19:49
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fallenturtle posted:I honestly don't understand why people get so vile over the idea that to fight Nazis it helps to have public perception on your side. it's a bad idea born of incorrect perceptions of the issue at hand, and a misplaced faith that irrational ideas can be dispelled with rational discussion the problem isn't that people like the nazis too much. the problem is that people dislike rocking the boat enough to where they put the nazis and the nazi haters in the same category of troublemakers. as i said before, this is exactly how the white majority of americans dismissed the civil rights movement fifty years ago
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Oct 24, 2017 19:53
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boner confessor posted:im sensing you're getting confused and distressed here quote:you are advocating that people can be persuaded to reject nazis. too late, people already reject nazis. No, I'm advocating that people can be persuaded to reject hate speech. quote:the issue here is people thinking the nazi-punchers are just as bad as the nazis. this is because they, and anyone who advocates a "let's not punch nazis" agenda, is just a weak centrist who advocates for rational decency and a compromise between those who oppose ethnic cleansing and those who support it. or, they secretly sympathize with the nazis but are too hesitant to openly say so We're not on the precipice of ethnic cleansing in our country... but if you think that's a realistic future then you aren't going to stop it through punching alone... You need to convince those "weak" centrists you poo poo on to be on your side. quote:there is no compromise to be had with nazis, they've been attacked before and will be attacked again. this is the proper way to deal with them. wringing your hands about the esteem of the people or whatever is just indicative of a certain moral weakness when it comes to defending the rights of the minority in the face of popular (white) disapproval
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Oct 24, 2017 20:03
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fallenturtle posted:Making fun of people isn't as effective without an audience on your side. i dont know why you think this audience doesn't exist, unless you're just assuming it doesn't because otherwise your argument would fall apart fallenturtle posted:No, I'm advocating that people can be persuaded to reject hate speech. historically this does not appear to be the case. americans have learned to say they accept the civil rights movement as a heroic turning point in america, but they're still racist as gently caress fallenturtle posted:We're not on the precipice of ethnic cleansing in our country... but if you think that's a realistic future then you aren't going to stop it through punching alone... You need to convince those "weak" centrists you poo poo on to be on your side. one reason we are not on this precipice is because nazis have been getting punched for decades you also don't seem to understand my argument. people who sympathize with nazis but not openly can be forced into submission via shaming. this is how we prevent people from being more openly racist in this country. it's not a perfect solution but it works fallenturtle posted:I don't think you can compromise with Nazis nor am I staying we should. I don't think punching alone is effective and yes, in some ways, yes, I think it can be counterproductive. not only are you wrong for reasons i've repeated to you numerous times but, for someone advocating persuasion, you are terrible at it
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Oct 24, 2017 20:11
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boner confessor posted:it's a bad idea born of incorrect perceptions of the issue at hand, and a misplaced faith that irrational ideas can be dispelled with rational discussion And people should poo poo down my throat because I believe that some irrational ideas held by some people can be dispelled? quote:the problem isn't that people like the nazis too much. the problem is that people dislike rocking the boat enough to where they put the nazis and the nazi haters in the same category of troublemakers. as i said before, this is exactly how the white majority of americans dismissed the civil rights movement fifty years ago I don't think the situation today compares to the civil rights movement fifty years ago, at least as far as the contemporary battle against Nazis is concerned. That was fighting a majority, this is fighting a minority. There are parallels for sure, but I think the scope is quite different. The civil rights movement was in support of an uprising against the standard quo. Punching Nazis is about suppressing an uprising of bigotry and hate.
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Oct 24, 2017 20:14
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