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i think 'fans focus far too much on the draft when most often it's the in-game execution that lets a team down' would be a very reasonable and fair comment. there are of course games won and lost in draft, but more often than not it's something like a team failing to understand their win conditions. this thread is mostly just fun general discussion and we're all just having fun, so that's whatever. in the wider scheme of things people go nuts on reddit and twitter about this stuff and send coaches death threats for p/b so they're a bit unwell
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Oct 24, 2017 08:36
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There are *some* champions this tournament that are too much of a nuisance to play against, even with something prepared but that doesn't excuse a team letting too many power picks make it through to the other team without having any solid plan at taking them out. There might not be a Miss Fortune -> Zyra counter-pick for Galio but you should at least have prepared some kind of strategy that will at least let you break even, or in the case of teams like GAM or Misfits just have something off the wall to throw teams on their heads for two easy games. But then again seven seasons in, a lot of veteran players should at least know how their team comp comes together and is supposed to win a game, you can't blame pick/ban when a team sits on a 6k gold lead at 30 minutes and all they do is just bait Baron over and over with lackluster vision. Lovechop posted:this thread is mostly just fun general discussion and we're all just having fun, so that's whatever. in the wider scheme of things people go nuts on reddit and twitter about this stuff and send coaches death threats for p/b so they're a bit unwell
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Oct 24, 2017 08:46
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AttackBacon posted:They are right (as much as it pains me to align myself with the most obnoxious duo in esports) in that 99% of pick/ban criticism is completely asinine. The vast, vast majority of it is purely reactionary and can basically be summed up as "the other team won with that, so clearly you should have banned it." If you're lucky they might throw in some bargain basement insight like "xyz champ has a high winrate!" It's a bunch of masturbatory armchair coaching, although that could of course summarize the majority of esports discussion. Well, I'm not sure what you want. If you want pure memeing you can spam stuff on Twitch. If you want a serious informed discussion you're not gonna be able to escape armchair coaching, that's pretty much what people do about sports and I'm not sure how much more serious business than that you expect from the e-sports forum thread for the game League of Legends. You can really only cheer, closed-caption the events or speculate and most of the time there's no game going for the first two. If you want to make things more meaningful you can speculate better, I guess? Or try to engage others in a discussion as to why you think they're armchair coaching wrong. Hopefully you'll get better at analyzing the situation. Otherwise you're pretty much taking out the fun that anyone watching competitive events have in speculating and being dumb for no real reason. As for Thorin and LS, come on. LS is a coach, and Thorin is friends with coaches. Thorin is also notorious for not actually ever talking about the game, or even the meta of the game, only about the meta of the competitive scene - from someone dedicated to making hundreds of hours of talking about a game, he's as removed from what's happening in the game as possible. Hell I think I remember him saying he doesn't care about cheaters because whatever people do at solo queue, you know, the mode that the majority of players care about and how they engage the game, is irrelevant because it doesn't affect the main event that is the e-sports scene. I enjoy at times listening to his interviews in the background but if you're gonna start being elitist about what people can or cannot say about e-sports you might as well say no one ever should watch any competitive event because of how far away the gap in skill is for the average player to even grasp the strategies of the pros, things get ridiculous real fast. If you genuinely believe no one should have anything to say because of their competence, you might as well not read this thread or any thread about any competitive event ever, and I can only imagine how mad you must get at the professional commentators/analysts. There are plenty of places for memes if that's your cup of tea. Honestly the majority of the complaints from P/B that I've seen have been spot-on and are similar to reactions that I had with my friends when watching. That's not always the case but there seems to be an unanimity in how absurd this last series was and if you can't take joy in that let the other people do.
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Oct 24, 2017 11:16
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rabidsquid posted:99% of all league commentary is asinine including Thorins content, suggesting we shouldnt comment on things because of appeal to authority is very dumb Thoorin sucks Also, and this is clearly in hindsight, Cloud Nine should have simply re picked their game four draft. Their draft was really good in that game. They just didn't execute well. Also, and I'm sorry that I keep going on about this, but it's really hard to get over how incredibly stupid that statement is. The one by Thor and I mean. 99% of all people talking about anything on the internet are f****** idiots. Who don't know what they're talking about. Wow. Amazing insight. Sexpansion fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 12:38
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99% of viewers correctly predict the winner of C9 vs WE game 5 before the second ban phase. "Well actually let me tell you why criticizing pick/ban is bad."
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Oct 24, 2017 13:11
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I am essentially certain that if you swapped in any one of the other Ro8 teams for C9 in Game 5, keeping the draft identical, WE still takes that game.
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Oct 24, 2017 13:14
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Vermain posted:There's just something about the mere act of playing Vayne that causes normally sensible people to temporarily turn into Neanderthals. Please don’t insult Neanderthals by comparing them to Vayne players tia
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Oct 24, 2017 13:30
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Also, while we're still pointing out why Thorin's take on this is as removed from our reality as possible, let me tell you something about the competitive scene: Most mistakes that are based on behind the scene things, you can't see. And by can't see I mean, we cannot even see the mistake to talk about it in the first place. However, pro players, coaches, theorycrafters, analysts, whatever it is, they pull bronze-level stunts all the time. And when they do, everyone can see it. The difference is that their average play is better than yours, and they make those mistakes a lot less (or should). But that does not mean that they don't, and when they do it's usually glaring and visible to everyone. That's the fun in it. Thorin in his video mentions some examples where some pro players make exotic builds that people don't get it, and thus they criticize them. Well, there's a player that also did a bunch of stupid builds, HotshotGG, and back then there was also a lot of people who wanted to point out that we shouldn't question his builds because he's a pro. But no, his builds were just incredibly bad, to the point where after he had quit his career as a pro gamer, he himself like to mocked how bad they were from time to time on stream. Everyone could notice how bad his builds were because they were impressively, balls-to-the-wall bad. You didn't need to be a pro to realize it. Sure, a lot of mistakes aren't mistakes and are just people not getting it, but I can absolutely guarantee you that a lot of the mistakes that you can see are just that, mistakes. Most pro gamers are pretty far from playing at their peak all the time, the margin for error in LoL is pretty huge. People freak out and make bad decisions in much slower, more methodical games, it shouldn't be the least surprising that pro players are gonna make a ton of rookie-level mistakes per series in a game that's so easy to make wrong decisions and, well, to err is human. There's a reason why we have terms like choking and tilting in the first place. Edit: I also want to point out that, out of all the games I played at a relatively high level, "doing the right thing" in LoL is by far the more invisible and less impressive. The mistakes are far more obvious at any level than doing the right thing is. This isn't less impressive in the sense of "dude won a PUBG tournament while being AFK and avoiding conflict". I mean, they're things you can't see at all. You can see the guy going AFK and avoiding conflict, but a lot of the right decisions in LoL are so vague, abstract and to be frank, somewhat boring, that you just can't see while watching casually. Elentor fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 14:02
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there was one point in that game against the lovely jungle maokai where i thought "if sneaky had jumped further forward during that botlane turn where he killed jayce/maokai, he would have gotten a triple" and then i realized that no, he probably would have gotten polymorphed and killed. it's really easy to forget that these guys arent bronze shitters like most of us and are way more likely to go for a low risk play and come out ahead than take a 50/50 on getting even further ahead vs throwing away what could have been a good play. that's kind of the fun of armchair coaching to me tho? idk. looking at a poo poo draft and thinking "i'd like to see these boys pull this one out of their rear end" or a weird play like hans sama's lovely insec that was almost a barrier and trying to figure out what the gently caress is going on is a lot of fun v  v
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Oct 24, 2017 15:07
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Speak for yourself, I see everything
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Oct 24, 2017 15:10
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el dingo posted:Speak for yourself, I see everything fair.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:12
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Hashtag Yoloswag posted:that's kind of the fun of armchair coaching to me tho? idk. looking at a poo poo draft and thinking "i'd like to see these boys pull this one out of their rear end" or a weird play like hans sama's lovely insec that was almost a barrier and trying to figure out what the gently caress is going on is a lot of fun v yeah, for sure. i've been watching since s2 but i'm still incredibly stupid and don't understand anything, so it's just fun to chat about with my buds here. which also makes me appreciate people like strong, squid, ulio, firebert and so on who are smart and generally have good knowledge of what they're talking about.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:21
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I always try to be smart about my poo poo because I'm much better at observing this garbage game than I am at playing it 
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Oct 24, 2017 15:37
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People who post analysis in the League of Legends Competitive Thread : Not interacting with the game in an analytical manner Normies: Rick and Morty fans
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Oct 24, 2017 15:40
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While we're on the subject of dumb coaching decisions, Schalke 04 have a new coach. Krepo's back. https://twitter.com/JacobNWolf/status/922825497544921088
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Oct 24, 2017 15:40
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I'm sad we wasted those first blood jokes a few pages back.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:45
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AttackBacon posted:They are right (as much as it pains me to align myself with the most obnoxious duo in esports) in that 99% of pick/ban criticism is completely asinine. The vast, vast majority of it is purely reactionary and can basically be summed up as "the other team won with that, so clearly you should have banned it." If you're lucky they might throw in some bargain basement insight like "xyz champ has a high winrate!" It's a bunch of masturbatory armchair coaching, although that could of course summarize the majority of esports discussion. AttackBacon posted:I personally vastly prefer Kevin-esque shitposting and memes to the dreck that this thread and others come up with as "insightful commentary". Agreed.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:49
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Thorin is a jackwagon and I can't believe anyone still listens to his opinions on anything. Most people in here who have watched the entire worlds tournament have a pretty consistent and aligned opinion about what champions are power picks because they are in like every game and having a huge impact on every game. When you concede a bunch of those in a draft in order to ban things that aren't anywhere near that level of impact even if they are a super focused target ban on someone who could play them to absolute optimal level I think that's fair criticism.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:53
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Elentor posted:Thorin is also notorious for not actually ever talking about the game, or even the meta of the game, only about the meta of the competitive scene - from someone dedicated to making hundreds of hours of talking about a game, he's as removed from what's happening in the game as possible.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:03
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Libertine posted:Thorin is a jackwagon and I can't believe anyone still listens to his opinions on anything. I think it was game four that C9 left Xayah open, and WE went for Kog anyway, which *hot draft take alert* might have been a sign that their ban priority on Xayah was a bit misguided
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Oct 24, 2017 16:05
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njsykora posted:While we're on the subject of dumb coaching decisions, Schalke 04 have a new coach. Krepo's back. He worked for Splyce behind the scenes so he wasn't really gone. Also, he said he enjoyed coaching younger players when he wrote about it but we all know really he meant coaxing
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Oct 24, 2017 16:16
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kingcobweb posted:I think it was game four that C9 left Xayah open, and WE went for Kog anyway, which *hot draft take alert* might have been a sign that their ban priority on Xayah was a bit misguided I've thought about it some more and watched a few analyses on game 5, and I genuinely think C9's biggest problem was not playing to their win conditions. The fight they picked in mid was an awful decision, because it was at the point where WE's comp was at its strongest. Despite the common perception of Kog as this late game hyperscaling carry, he actually power spikes very early in the game, especially on the Worlds patch, due to Rageblade's interactions with his abilities and Ardent. When C9 pick a fight at mid, Kog's finished Rageblade, Janna's finished Ardent, and Galio's finished Locket and Mask (meaning Kog will do even more damage). Lulu's finished Ardent, but Cait is only sitting on a Statikk and 2/3rds of an IE. Gnar has Cleaver versus Shen's Hydra, meaning that WE have a way to cut through C9's frontline (especially with a powerspiking Kog), while C9 have zero ways to deal with Gragas and Galio. There's just no universe where they win this fight unless everyone in WE falls asleep at the same time. They really needed to stall out that game until Void and LW were finished and Contractz had time to get his own Locket. Taking a really bad engage that gave away Baron for free meant that WE could take whatever they wanted with their spiking comp and C9 couldn't do anything about it.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:46
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Libertine posted:When you concede a bunch of those in a draft in order to ban things that aren't anywhere near that level of impact even if they are a super focused target ban on someone who could play them to absolute optimal level I think that's fair criticism. Pretty much. That C9 game, for instance: I get giving up Janna, or giving up Galio. There are strategies against them. But DON'T GIVE UP BOTH OF THEM IN THE SAME DRAFT. It's just bad pick/ban. There are five positions in the game and you're giving away arguably the best picks in two of them when you could easily just ban them or pick them away.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:50
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Or maybe don't spend a ban on a champion that you know the enemy won't pick since he just keeps picking kogmaw
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Oct 24, 2017 17:43
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Or maybe don't spend a ban on a champion that you know the enemy won't pick since he just keeps picking kogmaw eh, I think the xayah ban was fine honestly
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Oct 24, 2017 17:45
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njsykora posted:While we're on the subject of dumb coaching decisions, Schalke 04 have a new coach. Krepo's back.
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Oct 24, 2017 18:08
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kingcobweb posted:I think it was game four that C9 left Xayah open, and WE went for Kog anyway, which *hot draft take alert* might have been a sign that their ban priority on Xayah was a bit misguided C9 first picked Xayah in game 4. The rumble ban was a lot stranger.
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Oct 25, 2017 03:53
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i know you're just going to have to take my word for it but Mystic is legitimately the best Xayah player in the world (unless there's some ridiculous Xayah one trick hanging out in a small region which who knows but thats not entirely relevant) and letting him on Xayah would have changed the complexion of pick ban quite a bit but i am SKEPTICAL that WE would have been super confused and unable to pivot towards a comp more Xayah centric edit: also Elentor i very much appreciate that really thoughtful feedback on the subject of "armchar analysis" that was some good posting
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Oct 25, 2017 09:49
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I know that the Xayah thing has been mentioned as a bad ban and retract that. I still don't see how giving up Janna and galio to pick trist and j4 is worth it. You know they're almost certainly not picking Tristana since he's been slam picking kogmaw any time its up.
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Oct 25, 2017 11:04
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They didn't take Trist game 5, it was banned. They took Cait which I guess was to deny Cait/Janna but felt like a huge mistake.
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Oct 25, 2017 11:20
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:I know that the Xayah thing has been mentioned as a bad ban and retract that. I still don't see how giving up Janna and galio to pick trist and j4 is worth it. You know they're almost certainly not picking Tristana since he's been slam picking kogmaw any time its up. Totally agree. Giving up janna AND galio is just a mistake in this meta
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Oct 25, 2017 11:20
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Taciturn Tactician posted:They didn't take Trist game 5, it was banned. They took Cait which I guess was to deny Cait/Janna but felt like a huge mistake. Ah. Well I knew they took adc there. Oh well. Maybe next year.
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Oct 25, 2017 11:49
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rabidsquid posted:i know you're just going to have to take my word for it but Mystic is legitimately the best Xayah player in the world Really hoping to see this vs SSG.
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Oct 25, 2017 14:04
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rabidsquid posted:i know you're just going to have to take my word for it but Mystic is legitimately the best Xayah player in the world (unless there's some ridiculous Xayah one trick hanging out in a small region which who knows but thats not entirely relevant) and letting him on Xayah would have changed the complexion of pick ban quite a bit but i am SKEPTICAL that WE would have been super confused and unable to pivot towards a comp more Xayah centric You said this before but Kramer has double his KDA and a higher winrate on Xayah over a comparable number of games in a much better region. Even Sneaky has a better KDA on her than Mystic. If I was C9 I would have honestly taken the risk because it's a lot harder for Xayah to get her damage off as a short ranged ADC that it is for Kogmaw Firebert fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 14:12
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according to KDA and win rate Jensen is a very strong Galio player so i concede to you
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Oct 25, 2017 14:17
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kramer? drat near killed 'er
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Oct 25, 2017 14:24
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Firebert posted:You said this before but Kramer has double his KDA and a higher winrate on Xayah over a comparable number of games in a much better region. Even Sneaky has a better KDA on her than Mystic. Xayah also doesn't powerspike quite as hard by midgame, and her short range would've made it hard for them to siege against C9's Cait/Ori. The downside is that eventually Xayah becomes invincible due to her disengage and that rest of the comp backing her up. I still think farming it out for late versus Kog would've been their "best" option with that specific draft.
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Oct 25, 2017 14:27
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In not so light news, Vasilli just got taken away by the police for beating his girlfriend on stream
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Oct 26, 2017 17:36
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Killed By Death posted:In not so light news, Vasilli just got taken away by the police for beating his girlfriend on stream What a piece of poo poo. At least he was dumb enough to do it on stream this time.
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Oct 26, 2017 17:48
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HJSiPDUKss New Breakdown on the SKT/Misfits game 4 tower dive, or why 1 Braum shield kept SKT in the tournament. If he hadn't intercepted Sej's stun, Huni dies on that dive, Misfits probably ace SKT and go to semis.
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Oct 26, 2017 18:08
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