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Gumball Gumption posted:I still will never understand this complaint. Geist isn't amazing at spelling it out but you have motivations, threats, ect. It's the thousands of ghosts who are constantly harassing you, bothering you, attacking you, and being a general problem. It's also all of the things out there making more ghosts. It's probably because with the powers at a Sin-Eaters disposal, dealing with ghosts bothering you is a matter of ease. It's like if a regular human is harassing a mage.
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Oct 26, 2017 17:12
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Well, all the other CoD games all have fully developed antagonist factions with their own history, organization, and footprint on the world. Mage would be a much worse game if it just left it at "other mages will cause you problems," but instead it has the Abyss and the Seers in addition to plenty of divisive clashes between the player factions. Werewolf and Vampire could just be Gangs with Fangs, but they're much better with the spirit ecosystem, Strix, VII, Idigam, the Pure Tribes. Etc. Geist just leaves it at "there are ghosts who will cause you problems" and that is not great. There aren't even internal player factions to hang plots on, let alone antagonists. Every game as written has implicit supernatural conflict, only Geist has absolutely nothing else.
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Oct 26, 2017 17:16
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Geist did have a criminal lack of soulforging as the basic problem solving tool. Is it still not out yet? Even Exalted came out and that was everyone's go to example for being totes vaporwear. Who is the dev for Wraith20? What is their preferred edition of D&D?
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Oct 26, 2017 17:21
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Lambo Trillrissian posted:Well, all the other CoD games all have fully developed antagonist factions with their own history, organization, and footprint on the world. Mage would be a much worse game if it just left it at "other mages will cause you problems," but instead it has the Abyss and the Seers in addition to plenty of divisive clashes between the player factions. Werewolf and Vampire could just be Gangs with Fangs, but they're much better with the spirit ecosystem, Strix, VII, Idigam, the Pure Tribes. Etc. Yeah, we're changing that for 2e. Ghosts* aren't even in the Antagonists chapter, for one thing. * Well, except the ones wearing masks.
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Oct 26, 2017 17:22
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Mask ghosts sound cool. Ghosts not being in the antags section makes sense - most ghosts in CofD are barely even people, and the ones that are tend to be are generally capable of, like, making spooky noises and writing bloody letters on walls. Most ghosts are about on par to be a spooky mystery for mortals to investigate and, potentially, a threat to them if the ghost is particularly powerful.
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Oct 26, 2017 17:25
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I hope krewe mechanics are expanded to a similar point to werewolf packs. They were my favorite part of Geist 1e. edit:Ew the trump lover is the new generic AV
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Oct 26, 2017 17:26
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Mors Rattus posted:Mask ghosts sound cool. Ghosts not being in the antags section makes sense - most ghosts in CofD are barely even people, and the ones that are tend to be are generally capable of, like, making spooky noises and writing bloody letters on walls. Most ghosts are about on par to be a spooky mystery for mortals to investigate and, potentially, a threat to them if the ghost is particularly powerful. Right on the power level, but "ghosts are, in fact, people" is kind of the core thesis of Geist 2. JesterOfAmerica posted:I hope krewe mechanics are expanded to a similar point to werewolf packs. They were my favorite part of Geist 1e. Krewes are getting a significant mechanical upgrade that I'm really excited about. GimpInBlack fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 17:31
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I'm really hoping abmortals get like...any focus, since they got named as a Geist antagonist in 1E but not really defined in any sort of consistent way. (Which is why I just liberally stole from Tim Powers for them when I tried to run Geist. People huffing ghosts down to become immortal seemed like exactly the sort of poo poo a Sin-eater would want to look into.)
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Oct 26, 2017 17:31
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unseenlibrarian posted:I'm really hoping abmortals get like...any focus, since they got named as a Geist antagonist in 1E but not really defined in any sort of consistent way. (Which is why I just liberally stole from Tim Powers for them when I tried to run Geist. People huffing ghosts down to become immortal seemed like exactly the sort of poo poo a Sin-eater would want to look into.) You, my friend, have excellent taste.
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Oct 26, 2017 17:36
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GimpInBlack posted:Right on the power level, but "ghosts are, in fact, people" is kind of the core thesis of Geist 2. Even the ones that are repeating the same events on loop forever?
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Oct 26, 2017 17:45
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Deathlords are still a thing in Chronicles, right? Not exactly the same as their oWoD counterparts but I like the idea of outrageously ancient ghosts who've gone all weird from their accumulated power and proximity to oblivion. (Whether that's with a small or large O.)
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Oct 26, 2017 17:48
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Mors Rattus posted:Even the ones that are repeating the same events on loop forever? Yeah. That's why it's hosed up and sad.
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Oct 26, 2017 17:51
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Deathlords are still a thing in Chronicles, right? Not exactly the same as their oWoD counterparts but I like the idea of outrageously ancient ghosts who've gone all weird from their accumulated power and proximity to oblivion. (Whether that's with a small or large O.) Sort of. The Underworld - a piece of the universe that really shouldn't exist and is a sign of something being very broken - has superghosts, generally in the form of either geister (who give up individuality to become powerful incarnations of a form of death) or kerberoi (who...may or may not be human, and enforce the Laws of the Dead Dominions), and is also home to its own native creatures, which were never alive and are very strange and, potentially, extremely powerful but which rarely leave the deep Underworld, because why would they? As for Oblivion...well, the Great Sea at the bottom of the Underworld washes away what makes you you, it washes away your memories and selfhood, but that may or may not be Oblivion as we choose to define it. E: all this said, I really want Geist 2e to give you an actual reason to visit the Underworld because there literally is not even one, back in 1e, and many reasons to never ever go near a Dead Dominion ever. Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 17:52
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Mors Rattus posted:Even the ones that are repeating the same events on loop forever? Yep. Even them. Being trapped in a never ending time loop sucks, and it wears on the mind, but it doesn't make you not a person. (There are Rank 0 ghosts, which are generally your "phantom noises in the murder house" or "painting that weeps blood" type apparitions, most ephemeral objects, etc., but Rank 1 and up? Those are people.) Mors Rattus posted:E: all this said, I really want Geist 2e to give you an actual reason to visit the Underworld because there literally is not even one, back in 1e, and many reasons to never ever go near a Dead Dominion ever. I can think of at least four off the top of my head, and that's before you start planning how to tear the drat place down. GimpInBlack fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 17:59
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That's pretty cool and I look forward to seeing how you handle it. And also the inevitable friction between this viewpoint and that of Mages, which can be summarized as 'ghosts are definitively not people, now shut up while I shove this one into a pokeball.'
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Oct 26, 2017 18:00
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Mors Rattus posted:E: all this said, I really want Geist 2e to give you an actual reason to visit the Underworld because there literally is not even one, back in 1e, and many reasons to never ever go near a Dead Dominion ever. I like how you say that after describing a place that can literally remove troubling aspects of your existence like, I don't know, "I am a vampire". Or can just as easily add other aspects to your existence without any limitation. That's a pretty great reason to go there for literally any occult scholar that hears of it. Just bring a net to hold your memories and go forth and indulge in some complete rewriting of your selfhood.
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Oct 26, 2017 18:05
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Mulva posted:I like how you say that after describing a place that can literally remove troubling aspects of your existence like, I don't know, "I am a vampire". Or can just as easily add other aspects to your existence without any limitation. That's a pretty great reason to go there for literally any occult scholar that hears of it. Just bring a net to hold your memories and go forth and indulge in some complete rewriting of your selfhood. yeah but to get there you have to go through several places that are just the worst, have no redeeming values, and have massive threats that enforce arbitrary rules like, sure, in theory that place is useful but the trip there is not a fun adventure, even OOCly.
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Oct 26, 2017 18:07
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I'm gonna start sounding like a broken record saying "we're fixing that in Geist 2e," but...
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Oct 26, 2017 18:15
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No, no, it's a reassuring repetition, keep doing it. Now tell us about if you're going to fix the nigh-maddening layout of the rules.
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Oct 26, 2017 18:17
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GimpInBlack posted:Yep. Even them. Being trapped in a never ending time loop sucks, and it wears on the mind, but it doesn't make you not a person. I think the question arises because of this: Chronicles of Darkness Revised Core Rulebook, pg. 126 posted:Nonsapient "recording" type ghosts are Rank 1, while those that retain most of their living memories are Rank 2. Ghosts summoned back from the Underworld, however, may be of any rank.
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Oct 26, 2017 18:28
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As it happens, we are trying something a little different with how we write mechanics text that I think makes it a lot easier to pick out and absorb.
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Oct 26, 2017 18:31
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Gumball Gumption posted:I still will never understand this complaint. Geist isn't amazing at spelling it out but you have motivations, threats, ect. It's the thousands of ghosts who are constantly harassing you, bothering you, attacking you, and being a general problem. It's also all of the things out there making more ghosts. He could have, and he didn't even have a grip of superpowers. But, fundamentally, "guy who is harassed by a monster type" is just not as good, or even consistent with the basic premise of a World of Darkness game, as "guy who is a monster." It'd be like if Demon were the game for playing a pact-making infernalist, or Vampire about ghouls. Tuxedo Catfish posted:I think the question arises because of this: Yeah, I thought the same thing. I like the consistency of Rank 1 being basically for animals and automatons while Rank 2 and up is something that you could have a talk with, since that's also how spirits work. Although I guess Rank 0 for an automaton, Rank 1 for a person who's basically imprisoned in a nightmare, and Rank 2 for a person who's more or less free to act is perfectly consistent.
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Oct 26, 2017 18:49
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Ferrinus posted:It has always been an extremely cogent and to the point complaint, actually. If you were actually a weird ghost rather than someone with a weird ghost in their pocket you'd probably have actual motivations, threats, etc. Thought that doesn't instantly make it bad. Werewolf's pitch of "policing the spirit world" didn't grab me, but I wound up enjoying a short-lived campaign of it.
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Oct 26, 2017 18:50
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Well the actual werewolf pitch does mention that you are a werewolf. Same way there's a difference between "vampire gangsters" and "gangsters".
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Oct 26, 2017 18:51
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Geists wouldn't be any fun to play.
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Oct 26, 2017 18:53
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I think the question arises because of this: Yeah, that's sort of an oversimplification borne of the compressed ghost rules in the CofD core and the fact that Geist wasn't pitched yet when that went to press. Certainly they look like non-sapient recordings from an outside perspective, because it's hard or impossible to intrude on their time loop--from their perspective, though, they're just reliving the experience as it happened, like everyone who isn't Bill Murray in Groundhog Day.
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Oct 26, 2017 18:53
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Halloween Jack posted:Thought that doesn't instantly make it bad. Werewolf's pitch of "policing the spirit world" didn't grab me, but I wound up enjoying a short-lived campaign of it. I thought the powers were neat. It cribbed a lot off of werewolf, though. Instead of policing spirit world, you were policing death world and were way, way powerful for it. Now that werewolf's shifted to 'the wolf must hunt,' I'm curious where Sin-Eater is headed. It seems like you're still policing death world but that's just a feeling I get off the very little we've had confirmed, and I'm imagining the masked ghosts are something like Magath (ghosts who eat other ghosts) or wounded spirits (ghosts tainted by demon).
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Oct 26, 2017 19:00
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The guys who police death world, now they go in the Antagonists chapter.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:08
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See, if it was just called DEATH POLICE...
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Oct 26, 2017 19:09
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I'd play a game of Geist that was basically just Inferno Cop.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:10
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Is Geist 2e going to supplant the Book of the Dead? I'm considering picking it up on the Halloween sale.
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Oct 26, 2017 20:11
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'd play a game of Geist that was basically just Inferno Cop.
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Oct 26, 2017 20:19
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neaden posted:Is Geist 2e going to supplant the Book of the Dead? I'm considering picking it up on the Halloween sale. The Underworld is getting a pretty major makeover, and a decent chunk of the mechanics from Book of the Dead are getting folded in, but you could probably still get some use out of the example Dominions--and Geist 2e won't be spending any word count on other splats' interactions with the Underworld, so if that's something you're interested in it might be useful.
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Oct 26, 2017 20:34
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Here's the real question: how easily can we use Geist 2e to play Beetlejuice?
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Oct 26, 2017 20:42
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unseenlibrarian posted:I'm really hoping abmortals get like...any focus, since they got named as a Geist antagonist in 1E but not really defined in any sort of consistent way. (Which is why I just liberally stole from Tim Powers for them when I tried to run Geist. People huffing ghosts down to become immortal seemed like exactly the sort of poo poo a Sin-eater would want to look into.) That book slaps, good choice
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Oct 26, 2017 20:42
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Geist 1e has all kinds of problems. The antagonist space is basically what Vampire or Mage would be if you didn't have Belial's Brood/VII/the Stryx/Vampire hunters, or Banishers/Seers/The Abyss respectively. You can build an antagonist out of just 'other Vampires' or 'other Mages' but requires a degree of worldbuilding the other lines don't require out of the gate. There's the problem that Geist powers are broken and inconsistent, which is totally at odds with their horror genre. Guy Who Sees Ghosts is scary because he can see into a world that can hurt him but lacks the tools to deal with it. Geist 1e is almost the other way around; you can deal with all but the most determined/rare ghosts easily but they can't meaningfully hurt you. This is aside from the the fact that the tools themselves are also absurdly powerful. Then there's the problem with the Geist, a malevolent symbiot at best and a power-hungry parasite at worst. That lives in your soul. Represented mechanically by... never doing anything. I think Geist was hurt by trying to shove the Hunter tier system into it, and then was further diluted by forcing the 'build your own faction' stuff into it. Being able to see what the 'standard' ghost hunting orgs look like would have been incredibly useful for a game with so little focus. In many ways having some kind of social structure would have been more important in Geist than it is in say, Mage. I like Mage's Orders, don't get me wrong, but I'm pretty sure I could have invented them on my own with little difficulty. What do Tier 2 Geist organizations look like? Just give me five 'standard' ones and maybe some tools to build my own in the Storytelling chapter.
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Oct 26, 2017 20:58
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In fairness, Belial's Brood are loving awful as written (mostly, they're boring as gently caress), but your point is otherwise totally valid.
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Oct 26, 2017 21:02
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Mors Rattus posted:In fairness, Belial's Brood are loving awful as written (mostly, they're boring as gently caress), but your point is otherwise totally valid. They're portrayed poorly in the core book but fantastically in their own. Mendrian posted:Geist 1e has all kinds of problems. The developer and writers seem to appreciate them, though. It looks like they're shoring up or outright changing the problems from first edition. nofather fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 21:05
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nofather posted:The developer and writers seem to appreciate them, though. It looks like they're shoring up or outright changing the problems from first edition. I'm pretty confident in saying that Geist 2e is changing the most compared to its first edition out of all the CofD games, on both a thematic and mechanical level. I'll be putting up the first preview blog soon with a high-level overview of what's changing and why, but we definitely went into the project with eyes wide open to 1e's flaws.
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Oct 26, 2017 21:16
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I'll be honest, I frequently forget that Belial's Brood or the VII exist. Like if I was planning a vampire game and not flipping through the book the idea to include them would never even occur to me. I like the Strix, mortal hunters, and random one off weirdness a lot though.
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Oct 26, 2017 21:59
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