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Having watched episodes 1 and 2 now, the entire time I spent watching this I had a dubious look on my face. I have to say I don't like this show. Despite people saying that Elias has a very alien view about the world, that doesn't mean I should justify his literal slavery of this girl, anymore then an audience member should be okay with characters being enslaved in a Sci-Fi show by actual aliens. Whether he is nice to her or not doesn't justify the slavery. I'm sorry, whether he understands what he's doing is wrong or not, every moment he's on screen I want him to die, the goofy moments he has with Chise seem so outlandishly out of touch and tone deaf that they are eyebrow raising.
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Oct 26, 2017 18:54
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Nitrousoxide posted:Having watched episodes 1 and 2 now, the entire time I spent watching this I had a dubious look on my face.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:01
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Nitrousoxide posted:Having watched episodes 1 and 2 now, the entire time I spent watching this I had a dubious look on my face. At what point does anything he's doing seem coercive? She's clearly extremely traumatized and this appears to be a healthier environment than whatever else she would have been sold into. Do you think an ancient creature is going to drop her off at a mental health facility or something? He's clearly functioning as a bodyguard to some degree as well.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:05
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There Bias Two posted:At what point does anything he's doing seem coercive? She's clearly extremely traumatized and this appears to be a healthier environment than whatever else she would have been sold into. Do you think an ancient creature is going to drop her off at a mental health facility or something? He's clearly functioning as a bodyguard to some degree as well. Is slavery okay when the slave holder is nicer than average? Should slavery in the South been abolished except for the nice slave holders?
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Oct 26, 2017 19:09
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did yall miss when Elias got punched in the gut over this?
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Oct 26, 2017 19:11
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an actual dog posted:did yall miss when Elias got punched in the gut over this? And still keeps her as a slave.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:12
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Functionally it's more like an adoption. And the proceeds of the auction went to Chise herself, minus the fee paid to the auction house. Yeah it's still hosed up, but it's not chattel slavery.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:15
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Nitrousoxide posted:And still keeps her as a slave. What is the alternative? Okay, you can leave now and proceed to sell yourself back into slavery?
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Oct 26, 2017 19:20
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Tarezax posted:Functionally it's more like an adoption. And the proceeds of the auction went to Chise herself, minus the fee paid to the auction house. Yeah it's still hosed up, but it's not chattel slavery. So it's okay if you're giving the slave a better life than they had before? Start picking the homeless up of the street and selling them to eccentric millionaires.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:20
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Didn't Elias technically set her free in the first episode? Broke her chains, said "I'd like you to be my apprentice/bride, but you're welcome to leave if you want?" or something like that? I seem to remember it that way. I mean it's still a ~problematic~ dynamic, but I got the impression that Elias genuinely wasn't trying to be coercive.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:23
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Spiritus Nox posted:Didn't Elias technically set her free in the first episode? Broke her chains, said "I'd like you to be my apprentice/bride, but you're welcome to leave if you want?" or something like that? I seem to remember it that way. She says to him "but I suppose I can't refuse" and he says "nope" after that. I honestly cannot understand why people are trying to justify this slavery.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:25
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actually you're right Nitrousoxide, I'm pro-The Ancient Magus' Bride and pro-slavery. it's good
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Oct 26, 2017 19:25
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Nitrousoxide posted:So it's okay if you're giving the slave a better life than they had before? Start picking the homeless up of the street and selling them to eccentric millionaires. This comparison might be apt if we had thousand year old inhuman mages walking the Earth but uh...we don't, so it's kind of silly.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:29
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Nitrousoxide posted:She says to him "but I suppose I can't refuse" and he says "nope" after that. He sure is restricting her freedom to...sell herself back into slavery and apparently be cut up for parts or something.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:29
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There Bias Two posted:He sure is restricting her freedom to...sell herself back into slavery and apparently be cut up for parts or something. That's silly. They'd never do that. Sleigh Beggys are far more useful intact so they can be used as magic batteries.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:32
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Elias should return her to the slave store
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Oct 26, 2017 19:35
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Let’s be real here, though - at this point, he’s basically confining her on suicide watch.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:38
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an actual dog posted:actually you're right Nitrousoxide, I'm pro-The Ancient Magus' Bride and pro-slavery. it's good You joke but that would be more honest. There Bias Two posted:He sure is restricting her freedom to...sell herself back into slavery and apparently be cut up for parts or something. Oh please,. He was doing nothing of the sort. He didn't buy her out of some noble scheme to immediately free her. He talks about how she's not free to resist and says he paid good money for her and wants to see a return. The nicest slave holder in the world is still a slavery.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:39
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this seems in bad faith and you should probably gently caress off
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Oct 26, 2017 19:40
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Darth Walrus posted:Let’s be real here, though - at this point, he’s basically confining her on suicide watch. How noble, I'll head on down to my local asylum and pick up a specimen or two.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:40
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Is adoption also slavery?
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Oct 26, 2017 19:42
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Nitrousoxide posted:You joke but that would be more honest. Would you let someone go off alone who you know would immediately put themselves in harm's way?
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Oct 26, 2017 19:43
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HellCopter posted:Is adoption also slavery? Do adoptive parents typically pay money for their future bride and worker for life?
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Oct 26, 2017 19:44
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From the Doylist perspective, the selling into slavery thing establishes three important plot points: 1. Selling one's self into slavery is hosed up. Chise is exactly the level of hosed up that she would sell herself into slavery just so she could feel that she is of value to someone for once. 2. Elias' mindset and emotional development is sufficiently alien that he can go 'I wish to acquire a human female. The human female here is allowing herself to be acquired. I see no problems with this.' This is partly because he is a fae and partly because 3. The magic community at large sees no real issue with buying and selling magic poo poo up to and including living, sapient beings. All three are vitally important to the story progressing, the first point in particularly forming the entire backbone of the story's development.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:44
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Clearly you guys aren't going to convince each other.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:45
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Nitrousoxide posted:Do adoptive parents typically pay money for their future bride and worker for life? I'm gonna be honest here: you're making assumptions based on incomplete knowledge. If you're not going to keep watching, fine, whatever, that's your prerogative, but you're not going to get anyone else to stop because you're not making a great revelation that everyone who consumes Ancient Magus' Bride in any form and enjoys it is clearly 100% okay with slavery.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:47
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Nitrousoxide posted:Do adoptive parents typically pay money for their future bride and worker for life? You have to pay money to adopt a child, yes, and the parent typically makes some decisions about the child's future. Like you're getting super caught up in the specific language used but it's pretty clear that the two characters' relationship is not as coercive as you seem to think.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:50
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Nitrousoxide posted:Do adoptive parents typically pay money for their future bride and worker for life?  Edit: So maybe read the manga that develops the world and relationship or stop crying about it. vv Alien Sex Manual fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 19:51
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Pureauthor posted:From the Doylist perspective, the selling into slavery thing establishes three important plot points: And these are all fine elements to have. You can even tell a story where good doesn't win in this world. But the tone the show is setting is that the sorts of things going on are okay and should be treated light-heartedly when this is really a dark story where ultimately (and I haven't read the manga so I'm assuming here) Chisa remains a slave for the rest of her days.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:51
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Nitrousoxide posted:She says to him "but I suppose I can't refuse" and he says "nope" after that. Actually: "You'll surely become a great mage. That doesn't mean I'll be ordering you around though." "But I don't have any right to refuse, do I?" "Well, no. You're free to reconsider, though." Which is a weird sentence, but reads to me as her saying "I don't have any (legal) right to refuse," and him saying "That's true, but as far as I'm concerned you can." Also, there's literally no point at which she's tried to leave or suggest that she doesn't want to stay there, nor any point where he's tried to keep her against her will, so *shrugs* Edit: Also, what would Elias have to do for you to think his behaviour was ethical? I mean, given that he knew she was being sold, what should he have done? And don't just say "set her free", give me some kind of concrete statement as to what that actually entails, in your mind. The_White_Crane fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 19:53
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Nitrousoxide posted:this is really a dark story where ultimately (and I haven't read the manga so I'm assuming here) Chisa remains a slave for the rest of her days. Maybe before you decide what a show is saying you should let it actually finish saying its piece
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Oct 26, 2017 19:56
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dogsicle posted:this seems in bad faith and you should probably gently caress off
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Oct 26, 2017 19:58
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I want to be clear, my problem isn't with there being a story about a slaveholder and his slave. That's fine. My problem is with the tone this show has about the slavery, and the viewers who want to justify Elias's slavery of Chise and ascribe noble motives not even hinted at to him.The_White_Crane posted:Actually: I took that to mean, "you have some flexibility in what exactly you'll be doing, but you have to do what I say ultimately" The_White_Crane posted:Also, there's literally no point at which she's tried to leave or suggest that she doesn't want to stay there, nor any point where he's tried to keep her against her will, so *shrugs* Actually he did stop her from leaving to go to the fairy kingdom. now maybe they were going to eat her or something but that's not even what he said to her when he stopped her. He said she's his apprentice like that was all the reason he needed to have to stop her. The_White_Crane posted:Edit: Also, what would Elias have to do for you to think his behaviour was ethical? I mean, given that he knew she was being sold, what should he have done? And don't just say "set her free", give me some kind of concrete statement as to what that actually entails, in your mind. He could 100% set her free and then adopted her. He had the money to do so.
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Oct 26, 2017 20:13
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Nitrousoxide posted:Actually he did stop her from leaving to go to the fairy kingdom. now maybe they were going to eat her or something but that's not even what he said to her when he stopped her. He said she's his apprentice like that was all the reason he needed to have to stop her. Sorry but fairies in folklore are not nice creatures and do kidnap people. Her being his apprentice is more than enough reason to stop that. Are you saying kidnapping is okay 
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Oct 26, 2017 20:18
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the slavery stuff sets up the story and then promptly creases to be relevant or referenced in regards to Elias and Chise's relationship
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Oct 26, 2017 20:22
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gwrtheyrn posted:Sorry but fairies in folklore are not nice creatures and do kidnap people. Her being his apprentice is more than enough reason to stop that. Are you saying kidnapping is okay I literally said they might have wanted to eat her (or whatever) in my post. But if he was looking out for her health he could have said so. The thing he followed her to teach her wasn't that "yo these guys are dangerous," it's that "you're my property and you're not going anywhere."
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Oct 26, 2017 20:22
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Nitrousoxide posted:I literally said they might have wanted to eat her (or whatever) in my post. But if he was looking out for her health he could have said so. The thing he followed her to teach her wasn't that "yo these guys are dangerous," it's that "you're my property and you're not going anywhere." Elias has a bad habit of not explaining himself and it will come up later
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Oct 26, 2017 20:24
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Nitrousoxide posted:I literally said they might have wanted to eat her (or whatever) in my post. But if he was looking out for her health he could have said so. The thing he followed her to teach her wasn't that "yo these guys are dangerous," it's that "you're my property and you're not going anywhere." Spoiler alert but he does explain this in the manga. literally chapter one, so not much of a spoiler I can't go rewatch ep1 right now to see if he did in the anime
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Oct 26, 2017 20:25
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Nitrousoxide posted:You joke but that would be more honest. It's okay to not like TAMB but gently caress off with this.
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Oct 26, 2017 20:32
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Nitrousoxide posted:Actually he did stop her from leaving to go to the fairy kingdom. now maybe they were going to eat her or something but that's not even what he said to her when he stopped her. He said she's his apprentice like that was all the reason he needed to have to stop her. Chise hesitates and stops before the portal. "I can't. I have to go home." "Why? There's no reason you have to go back to that house." "No one ever told me that I could be there. But that man told me... Even if I'm just a toy, even if he'll throw me out when he's bored of me, he told me I was family, even if it was just that once. So..." She wanted to stay. I admit, she wanted to stay largely because she's psychologically damaged and clings desperately to the simple fact that he referred to her as 'family', but even so. Nitrousoxide posted:He could 100% set her free and then adopted her. He had the money to do so. As opposed to what he's done, which is taking off her chains, saying she has the right to reconsider, and calling her family? Like, your complaint literally seems to boil down to "he didn't take her to a courthouse and get a bunch of papers drawn up".
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Oct 26, 2017 20:57
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