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It's not just about what's better for leftists, establishment democrats arent offering what Americans in general think is better, unless your definition is quite literally "a tiny bit better than republicans" (most of the time theyre not even doing that). In which case you're OK with eating the trash the democrats are going to feed you until capitalism runs itself dry or we're all dead, or both. Have fun with that
Fiveace Attorney fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 14:10
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sirtommygunn posted:How the gently caress do you acknowledge that Ossoff was a candidate propped up entirely to try to see if they could win by just being republican lite, thus showing that democrats don't need the left to win, and still blame the left when he loses? His entire existence was meant to show that leftists aren't needed and that they need to shut up and fall in line, and you somehow believe that its the voters who should be blamed, and not the establishment that clearly put in party politics above ACTUALLY WINNING THE loving ELECTIONS. I can see the logic of "well this area is right wing so lets run a right winger because that will appeal to the undecideds" even if it's failed before (and was definitely being used as a test case to see if Trump was toxic enough they could win by default) since it at least makes sense on a theoretical level. What's silly is that if that area is so Republican you have to run a right wing Democrat, how can you blame the nonexistent leftists for staying home? Fiveace Attorney posted:It's not just about what's better for leftists, establishment democrats arent offering what Americans in general thinks is better, unless your definition is quite literally "a tiny bit better than republicans". In which case you're OK with eating the trash the democrats are going to feed you until capitalism runs itself dry or we're all dead, or both. Have fun with that Yeah the Democrats are out of sync with the American people, not just the leftists which is the big problem. If it was just the insignificant leftists not voting they would be winning elections left and right. People may not want FULL COMMUNISM NOW but they sure want something better than what we have now which isn't really being offered. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 14:15
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The lesson of Ossoff is that the dem establishment is so bad at winning elections that they can't even pull it off by going all in in their own chosen battleground where they thought they'd have all the advantages in the age of Trump.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:15
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Making money has always been more important than winning elections Why are people surprised about this
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Oct 27, 2017 14:17
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Radish posted:I can see the logic of "well this area is right wing so lets run a right winger because that will appeal to the undecideds in that area" even if it's failed before (and was definitely being used as a test case to see if Trump was toxic enough they could win by default) since it at least makes sense on a theoretical level. What's silly is that if that area is so Republican you have to run a right wing Democrat, how can you blame the nonexistent leftists for staying home? I don't have an issue with Ossoff existing and running in that district, I do have a problem with him getting practically all the DNC funding during that time despite being the worst of the available candidates. It's about him having been the focus point while other elections were starved for cash, specifically in an attempt to show that the correct strategy was to keep moving right.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:21
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Fiveace Attorney posted:It's not just about what's better for leftists, establishment democrats arent offering what Americans in general think is better, unless your definition is quite literally "a tiny bit better than republicans" (most of the time theyre not even doing that). In which case you're OK with eating the trash the democrats are going to feed you until capitalism runs itself dry or we're all dead, or both. Have fun with that What are you doing to change the conditions to make your goals possible? My attitude is specifically toward you, and people like you. I’ve met people like this, and when I mentioned the type, you and people like you came out to say Actually All Help Is Bad, gently caress You. I suggested that you aren’t doing a thing to achieve your goals and mocking anyone trying to move the bar. The reaction from you and Kilroy (and subsequent revulsion from people who aren’t true believers) makes me think there’s more people who want to change things for the better, even if it’s not enough, under the assumption that we won’t just stop and say “good work everyone” after we achieve a single thing. Radicalizing into stasis is the Right’s ultimate victory. But your posturing looks immaculate, so congratulations on that.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:23
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sirtommygunn posted:I don't have an issue with Ossoff existing and running in that district, I do have a problem with him getting practically all the DNC funding during that time despite being the worst of the available candidates. It's about him having been the focus point while other elections were starved for cash, specifically in an attempt to show that the correct strategy was to keep moving right. Yeah it was ridiculous to see the people here saying ignoring those other elections was fine since they were absolute loses, but this white, Georgia suburb was worth throwing their full weight behind. It's becoming more and more absurd to claim that leftists are the ones putting ideology above results when the people with the actual power to make decisions are the ones doing it. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 14:25
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It really is just astounding to me that anyone wants to give up anything to these morons who couldn't run the most gimme campaign ever, who are still whining about Russia while regular people's livelihoods are constantly being threatened, who are still keeping progressives out of the party while shitheels like Pelosi and Clinton still do the media rounds. The people who not only cannot fathom but also actively loathe the reality that Bernard Sanders Would Have Won. Why would you place any trust in these milquetoast failures. They stopped working for anyone in the country who isn't a conservative eons ago so what are you hoping to get from giving them anything, some modicum of their worthless power in their crap party? If you're a progressive it has been shown over and over, they will not give it to you. You have to take it from them
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Oct 27, 2017 14:27
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If your idea of moving the bar is Ossoff, and other Republican hanger-ons, you deserve all the mockery you can get - even if you take the Ossoffs as "just" a tactical compromise, it still shows you just don't get anything at all. Also deal with the fact that in representative democracy 99% of people are not going to be directly involved in political activities, not as a dysfunction, but by design. Dismissing those people as lazy good for nothings who deserve no say in agenda setting is just a way to turn the structural reality of the political system into a bludgeon against inconvenient ideological opponents.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:27
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Your Boy Fancy posted:What are you doing to change the conditions to make your goals possible? Have you ever stopped to consider that a) you don't actually know what people are doing or not doing IRL based on forums posts, and b) it's ultimately the job of a political party to attract activists rather than some sort of duty of politically aware people to go work for said party?
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Oct 27, 2017 14:28
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It's rich to accuse people of not being engaged with Democrats when they don't even bother maintaining offices in many regions and regularly turn away volunteers.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:31
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Your Boy Fancy posted:What are you doing to change the conditions to make your goals possible? I became a Democratic Socialist 
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Oct 27, 2017 14:31
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Your Boy Fancy posted:What are you doing to change the conditions to make your goals possible? Come on dude. You're acting like I'm a loving tankie because I have the merest of leftist principles. Get real. There are all kinds of people in this country who are tired of suffering under these horrible political parties but apparently you somehow haven't met any of them Fiveace Attorney fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 14:31
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It’s darkly hilarious that the best possible outcome for democrats currently is that their dead cat bounce lasts until 2020 and then in 2024 Richard spencer will be elected president
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Oct 27, 2017 14:34
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I'm a member of a radical socialist collective with communal ownership and communal child-rearing.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:35
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EugeneJ posted:I became a Democratic Socialist Neat! What’s your chapter up to? DC one is mainly pushing affordable housing, which the 99% Democratic government in the city hasn’t done much to work with. They’re awesome. DSA is awesome. Fiveace Attorney posted:I do what I can in the DSA and I know plenty of other people who do the same without advocating for giving up their principles to these nimrods. Your assumption that anyone attacking your whinging position isn't Doing Their Part Like Me, The Activist Hero is really some bad projection. The people I work with aren't interested in bragging about what they do or assuming that everyone else isn't doing enough “The merest of leftist principles” apparently involves “mocking people who work to improve a situation you don’t like.” My assumption has been essentially unchallenged until I ask the question. You’re acting like I’m a centrist because I’m advocating the labor movement GOTV, so if I’m shouting past you toward a soundalike, it’s likely mutual. What Are You Doing is a more productive conversation than This Sucks, Everything Sucks. Is that a fair statement?
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Oct 27, 2017 14:39
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Your Boy Fancy posted:
This isn't a thing, "radicalizing" worked for the Tea Party and the republicans. Libs wonder why conservatives are so loyal and it's because they give their constituents what they want, even if it's something horrible like banning abortions and standing against gay rights.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:42
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Your Boy Fancy posted:What Are You Doing is a more productive conversation than This Sucks, Everything Sucks. Is that a fair statement? Not if things actually suck and people refuse to either acknowledge it or that you need to change the poo poo that led to the suckage.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:43
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Your Boy Fancy posted:What Are You Doing is a more productive conversation than This Sucks, Everything Sucks. Is that a fair statement? If a liberal asks "What Are You Doing" I'm assuming they're a stooge and kicking them out of the conversation We have different goals
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Oct 27, 2017 14:44
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Republicans in blue states are toast if this tax reform bill passes without the SALT exemption.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:44
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Your Boy Fancy posted:Neat! What’s your chapter up to? DC one is mainly pushing affordable housing, which the 99% Democratic government in the city hasn’t done much to work with. They’re awesome. DSA is awesome. Your Boy Fancy posted:What Are You Doing is a more productive conversation than This Sucks, Everything Sucks. Is that a fair statement? Fiveace Attorney fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 14:46
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People on SA are so quick to declare the death of a political party. It's 2008 and the Republicans all over again. Ossoff was definitely an attempt to try to turn the party into more of a suburban party than it was previously. While that may have been for benign reasons (Clinton did perform better in the suburbs than Democrats historically have), the results of that change almost certainly would have been catastrophic in the medium term, as suburban voters have no inherent reason to support Democrats over Republicans. The chase for national security Republicans is building a house on sand.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:54
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Tiberius Christ posted:This isn't a thing, "radicalizing" worked for the Tea Party and the republicans. Libs wonder why conservatives are so loyal and it's because they give their constituents what they want, even if it's something horrible like banning abortions and standing against gay rights. I don’t wonder. It’s easier to mobilize around “keep what you have” when you have things. And using your own example, considering gay marriage came through less than five years ago, and the reaction in 2016 was “not enough, do better” instead of “okay, bonafides proven” that says a lot about the different mindsets. The left wants perpetual change. And we should! More Perfect Union and that. But, and this is was my point yesterday, there’s always that proclivity to identify out. If there’s something that doesn’t work, if there’s an article of faith violated, real or imagined (the Fairfax lit is my example here), then everything has to burn and people seem to retroactively BECOME centrists. It’s not too different from Tea Party RIŃO purges. I don’t know why the tilde went in there but gently caress it. And when people get exhausted from it all, allies grind to a halt. It’s a thing because I’ve watched it happen. Lifelong fighters for causes get burnt out. Moving people from a dead stop is, exhausting work, especially in places like DC where the fight never ends, and VA where there’s another election every few months. And there’s always some new reason as to why Actually gently caress Y’All. Radicalizing into stasis is a story of the last year - call it fatigue, call it what you like.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:54
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Im Ready for DEATH posted:Republicans in blue states are toast if this tax reform bill passes without the SALT exemption. i wasn't aware the average republican in a blue state had access to Minuteman III missiles
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Oct 27, 2017 14:56
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Your argument is literally 'We just started grudgingly treating the gays as humans, things are going TOO FAST' when people are literally dying because the change isn't coming fast enough. They're not tired of change. They're tired of the same old status quo beating them down every day while you lie to them.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:56
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Your Boy Fancy posted:I don’t wonder. It’s easier to mobilize around “keep what you have” when you have things. And using your own example, considering gay marriage came through less than five years ago, and the reaction in 2016 was “not enough, do better” instead of “okay, bonafides proven” that says a lot about the different mindsets. Both parties re-wrote themselves to only serve the rich, people noticed. Until you purge he wealthy from the party you're just gonna keep failing to gain any traction with anyone who isn't a six-figgie fucktard
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Oct 27, 2017 14:57
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Tiberius Christ posted:This isn't a thing, "radicalizing" worked for the Tea Party and the republicans. Libs wonder why conservatives are so loyal and it's because they give their constituents what they want, even if it's something horrible like banning abortions and standing against gay rights. If I were a Tea Party Republican, I would be bemoaning about how the Democrats could do healthcare, banking and a stimulus in the time that Republicans have had repeated failures. I don't think I would be very happy if I were a Republican right now.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:58
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Inescapable Duck posted:Your argument is literally 'We just started grudgingly treating the gays as humans, things are going TOO FAST' when people are literally dying because the change isn't coming fast enough. "B-b-but just reframe the narrative and we won't have to actually offer them anything!"
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Oct 27, 2017 14:59
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Your Boy Fancy posted:I don’t wonder. It’s easier to mobilize around “keep what you have” when you have things. And using your own example, considering gay marriage came through less than five years ago, and the reaction in 2016 was “not enough, do better” instead of “okay, bonafides proven” that says a lot about the different mindsets. Hey, pop quiz, what do the Democrats have right now? And how do you think that affects the phenomenon you described in the laat paragraph? And most importantly, will this revelation cause you to reconsider being a condescending prick towards people who burn out from supporting a bunch of inompetent losers and recieving only scorn in return?
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Oct 27, 2017 15:00
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100 years of republican darkness isn't in our future and the nihilism is real is you think people won't look for an alternative. Leftists where told for years they had no where else to go, but Trump popped that bubble. Either Dems change or they never win again, doesn't mean Republicans win by default.
Tiberius Christ fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 15:02
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Inescapable Duck posted:Your argument is literally 'We just started grudgingly treating the gays as humans, things are going TOO FAST' when people are literally dying because the change isn't coming fast enough. Essentially a million times this. That anyone can look at a world that is constantly self-destructing and decide "incrementalism, that's what the doctor ordered here" is loving galling. There seems to be a fundamental inability for people to understand that the desire for radical change at this point is built on a foundation of "we either make a hard loving turn in a better direction, or we loving explode."
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Oct 27, 2017 15:02
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EugeneJ posted:If a liberal asks "What Are You Doing" I'm assuming they're a stooge and kicking them out of the conversation This isn’t meant as a personal attack - do you have goals that have achievable metrics in your lifetime? My worry is that in the process of purity, we lose things that save lives and improve lives. Cerebral Bore posted:Not if things actually suck and people refuse to either acknowledge it or that you need to change the poo poo that led to the suckage. This Is Fine Dems are going to be the ones who lose, honestly. They have since ‘09. That’s why I like the labor end - they promote who runs FOR people, not against. And DSA has been pushing those people into the lower level fights. Change is happening. And it’s annoyingly slow, and some of that is on me to accept that the fight is working. Slowly. (Please retire, bad leaders.) Fiveace Attorney posted:Not if we quite obviously disagree on what sucks and what needs to get fixed, which we do Short of wholesale Revolution / Civil War, I’m not sure how what we mutually want is compatible with what is peacefully achievable. The DNC can circle their wagons, but to me, that’s the crouch of a last stand. The electorate is changing, so they either get taken over by the DSA crowd or replaced Whig-style. My thing is always “fine, I’ll gather up a majority and outnumber you then.” It’s worked for centuries, from a town hall to a union hall to a state wide election. If your idea is that moving separately is better, then yeah, incompatible and I’ve got nothing for ya. Inescapable Duck posted:Your argument is literally 'We just started grudgingly treating the gays as humans, things are going TOO FAST' when people are literally dying because the change isn't coming fast enough. Not at all what I said. Sheesh.
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Oct 27, 2017 15:05
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Oh Snapple! posted:Essentially a million times this. What about *pragmatic* incrementalism
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Oct 27, 2017 15:07
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Raskolnikov38 posted:i wasn't aware the average republican in a blue state had access to Minuteman III missiles I think I get this reference
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Oct 27, 2017 15:08
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Your Boy Fancy posted:And using your own example, considering gay marriage came through less than five years ago, and the reaction in 2016 was “not enough, do better” instead of “okay, bonafides proven” that says a lot about the different mindsets. Who gets credit for that, by the way? The Log Cabin Republicans, or the Supreme Court? Cause it certainly wasn't the Dems pushing for it: 
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Oct 27, 2017 15:09
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Your Boy Fancy posted:This isn’t meant as a personal attack - do you have goals that have achievable metrics in your lifetime? My goal is to overpay for healthcare and kill myself before dying a painful death in poverty It's super achievable - thanks Dems
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Oct 27, 2017 15:09
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Just take the L democrats, just take the L
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Oct 27, 2017 15:11
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Your Boy Fancy posted:This isn’t meant as a personal attack - do you have goals that have achievable metrics in your lifetime? Limiting your political goals to what momentarily seems achievable is both political cowardice and malpractise. The second point is correct though, through insisting on political purity and not ever compromising with the left, the centrists have destroyed a lot of things that save and improve lives. Your Boy Fancy posted:This Is Fine Dems are going to be the ones who lose, honestly. They have since ‘09. That’s why I like the labor end - they promote who runs FOR people, not against. And DSA has been pushing those people into the lower level fights. Change is happening. And it’s annoyingly slow, and some of that is on me to accept that the fight is working. Slowly. (Please retire, bad leaders.) Yeah, see, they don't. And they're doing their damndnest to keep anybody else from aquiring the kind of power that could force them out. In light of this, I'd like to ask you whay you, personally, have done towards the goal of throwing the aforementioned clowns out?
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Oct 27, 2017 15:11
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I love that the ask of “let’s elect better candidates” is met by “gently caress the current Dems.”
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Oct 27, 2017 15:12
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Your Boy Fancy posted:I love that the ask of “let’s elect better candidates” is met by “gently caress the current Dems.” they're all bad your heroes are objectively pieces of poo poo, sorry fam
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Oct 27, 2017 15:13
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