D&D NEXT: Infinite Posts of the Abyss

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Shitshow: Jul 25, 2007; We still have not found a machine that can measure the intensity of love. We would all buy it.

Just for fun, are there any house rules that would make martial classes more interesting to play or is 5E broken beyond that?

# ? Oct 27, 2017 23:32

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# ? May 14, 2024 14:33

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

If we consider that the main advantage that casters have over martials is that spells provide an unprecedented level of control over the world and the narrative, what you really want to do is to expand your idea of what a martial class can do with their "skills" without being asked to roll for it, and/or only being asked to roll once, and/or having a low DC for the roll.

What I'm suggesting is really more of a "mindset", because it can be difficult to come up with a formal, rationalized framework for just how legendary/mythical the martial character should be able to behave without having to rip up enough of the game's guts that you should really just play another system anyway.

Goon Magil Zeal did up a document a while back that has some good ideas in this regard.

# ? Oct 27, 2017 23:45

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

Correct. The power of casters lie in magic being able to sidestep the rules of the system (and common sense).

To give equivalency to martials in a narrative sense, you'd have to let them be able to do the same.

Mechanically there is no simple way to do it; Paladins are the best martials by virtue of being full of class abilities and half casting, and Battle Masters and Monks are alright, but for the rest... you could just up and give them Maneuvers and Superiority Die, but that knocks balance around.

# ? Oct 27, 2017 23:54

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

Shitshow posted:

Just for fun, are there any house rules that would make martial classes more interesting to play or is 5E broken beyond that?

I did a fighter archetype that turns you into a team of dudes. It worked OK in play, but you do need to accept a little bit more abstraction than many D&D players will like.

AlphaDog posted:

I made a thing if anyone wants to use it. Please pick it to pieces.

COMMANDER (Fighter Archetype)

The archetypal Commander is the fearless leader of a small team of expert soldiers. Those who follow this path are excellent warriors in personal combat, but their real strength lies in using superior tactics to control the ebb and flow of battle.

A GREAT LEADER
When you choose this archetype at level 3, you gain SOLDIERS as your personal troops, who you can command using special dice called COMMAND DICE.

SOLDIERS
You gain the loyalty of two Soldiers. They wear suitable armor, carry a variety of weapons, are completely loyal to you, and do not need to be paid. You attract an extra soldier at level 7, 10, and 18. Each soldier loyal to you has an artisan's tool skill of your choice, which you may use as if you knew the skill.

FORMATIONS
Your soldiers fight in Formations. You may change the Formation once per round.

ORDERS
You may issue orders to your Soldiers. The available Orders depend on which Formation they are in. Orders expend Command Dice.

COMMAND DICE
You start with 4 Command Dice, which are d8s. Gain an extra Command Die when you gain an extra soldier (you will have 5 Command Dice at level 7, 6 at level 10, and 7 at level 18). You regain all your expended Command Dice when you finish taking a short or long rest.

A PERFECT TEAM
You and your soldiers fight in harmony - you are a perfect team. Attacks made using your soldiers use your attack and damage numbers. Attacks against your soldiers target your defences and reduce your hit points. You and your soldiers still can't be affected twice by any one attack, even if an Area of Effect attack hits 2 or more of your team.

HIGH COMMAND
At 10th level, your Command Dice turn into d10s. At 18th level, they turn into d12s.

UNSTOPPABLE
Starting at 15th level, when you roll initiative and have no command dice remaining, you regain 1 command die.

FORMATIONS and ORDERS

SHIELD WALL (formation): You and your soldiers remain adjacent. You and your soldiers are a contiguous unit, no other creature can move "through" you. You may make any of your Attacks or Opportunity Attacks as if you were in the position of yourself or any of your soldiers. This is the default formation. If you haven't commanded your soldiers to take up another formation, they stay in this one. When you spend your last Command Die, you may also order soldiers to return to this formation, which they do on the next round.

RETALIATION (order, Shield Wall) Whenever you could make an Opportunity Attack from the position of any of your soldiers, expend a Command Die and roll it to deal that much damage to the target. This does not consume your reaction.

FALL BACK (order, Shield Wall) Expend a Command Die, roll it once, and divide that amount of damage among opponents adjacent to your soldiers. Your soldiers then simultaneously disengage and move back from melee combat. They move up to their movement speed and end adjacent to each other. They do not provoke opportunity attacks while doing so. At the end of this order, change the formation to Support.

SUPPORT (formation): Your Soldiers stay back from melee combat, but remain close. They stay adjacent to each other, but don't have to stay adjacent to you. You save with Advantage on any Area Of Effect attack that targets your soldiers (but not you) in this formation. Each round, you may make ONE of your attacks as if you were in the position of any of your soldiers.

FIGHT IN THE SHADE (order, support) Use an Attack Action to expend a Command Die and designate a number of creatures (squares) equal to the number of soldiers you command, as targets. Roll the Command Die. Those targets take that amount of damage. You may target the same creature (square) more than once.

TO ME! (order, support) Use an Attack Action to expend a Command Die. Your Soldiers move up to twice their movement, ending adjacent to you. Roll the Command Die once, each soldier deals that much damage to an adjacent opponent. At the end of this order, change the formation to Shield Wall.

BODYGUARD (formation): Pick a number of allies (including yourself) equal to the number of Soldiers you command. Each of your soldiers stays adjacent to their ally, guarding them. The soldier and ally form a contiguous unit, no other creature may move "through" them. An ally adjacent to a soldier gains a +1 bonus to their AC while you use this formation. You may make any of your attacks or opportunity attacks as if you occupied the position of a soldier adjacent to you. You may make ONE of your attacks each round (but not an opportunity attack) as though you occupied the position of any of your soldiers.

NOOOOOOOOO! (order, Bodyguard) Expend a Command Die. Every ally adjacent to a soldier (this can include yourself) has Advantage on all saving throws until the start of your next turn.

COMBAT MEDICS (order, Bodyguard) Expend a Command Die and roll it. Any ally next to a soldier (this can include yourself) is healed that many hit points.

THE BEST DEFENCE... (order, Bodyguard) Expend a Command Die and roll it. Any enemy adjacent to a soldier or adjacent to an ally with an adjacent soldier takes that much damage if they attack a soldier or an ally with an adjacent soldier until the start of your next turn.

Alternatively, replace spellcasters with the Simple Wizard (roughly based on the champion fighter, never playtested for various reasons, one of which is that it's sort of just a joke):

AlphaDog posted:

Simple Wizard

You know the cantrip Fire Bolt. You can cast it once per round.

You learn one extra cantrip from this list (Chill Touch, Ray of Frost, Shocking Grasp) at levels 5, 11, and 17, the same levels at which your cantrip damage increases.

From level 3 onward, when you roll an 19 or 20 to hit, roll all your damage dice twice and add them together before adding any other damage modifiers.

Starting at level 7, you can add half your proficiency bonus to any Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma check that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus. You also gain the ability to levitate along an extra number of feet equal to your intelligence modifier whenever you make a running jump

At 10th level, you cast a cool magic spell that grants you a permanent bonus, choose from the following: <+1 to cantrip attacks> <+1 to AC when you aren't wearing any armour> <use your reaction to cast a magic shield which inflicts Disadvantage on one attack roll on an ally within 5 feet of you> <+2 to cantrip damage as long as you're not holding a weapon>

From 15th level onward, when you roll an 18, 19, or 20 to hit, roll all your damage dice twice and add them together before adding any other damage modifiers.

At 18th level, you can cast a magic boon of resilience on yourself. At the start of your turn, gain 5 + conmod hit points if you're at less than half your hit point total, but not if you've got 0 or fewer hit points.

e: I should probably rework the wizard into something that's a bit less of a joke, I might actually have a use for it coming up.

e2: If it's not clear, for the fighter archetype, one of the unwritten parts is that you vastly increase your out-of-combat roleplay/explore/utility options if you have 4+ dudes. Plenty of stuff that'd be over-the-top if "1 character" was doing it looks pretty normal if it's actually 4 dudes collaborating.

Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Oct 28, 2017

# ? Oct 28, 2017 01:53

Ever Disappointing: May 4, 2004

AlphaDog, that Fighter archeytype seems really loving neat. I might use that in my game.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 02:05

gizmojumpjet: Feb 21, 2006; Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt.; Grimey Drawer

AlphaDog posted:

e2: If it's not clear, for the fighter archetype, one of the unwritten parts is that you vastly increase your out-of-combat roleplay/explore/utility options if you have 4+ dudes. Plenty of stuff that'd be over-the-top if "1 character" was doing it looks pretty normal if it's actually 4 dudes collaborating.

Like, a party of adventurers?

# ? Oct 28, 2017 02:06

Name Change: Oct 9, 2005

I suppose adapting the weaboo fightan magic from the 3E book written to create such a thing, Book of Nine Swords, would solve a lot of issues.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 02:11

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

gizmojumpjet posted:

Like, a party of adventurers?

Sure, but it's one player. Instead of the player having narrative agency beyond what's believable for a single character because they can cast spells, the have it because they are playing as 3-6 people.

Tir McDohl posted:

AlphaDog, that Fighter archeytype seems really loving neat. I might use that in my game.

If you do, let me know how it works for you!

To reiterate, there's a lot more "abstraction" (or however you want to phrase it) than you generally find in D&D, and some people will object to it just on those grounds. They're not necessarily wrong - it is a step away from they way PCs are generally thought of.

The original version was "The Squad" - a "character" that was made up of 4-10 soldiers with no actual "this is my PC, the hero" leader in there. Mechanically, it worked well (maybe even better) in play, but it was way too far from the D&D thing for anyone to feel like the concept fit in. I just liked the idea of "Mutal Support Class" as a single "character" - several regular people who between them can equal any so-called Hero.

Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Oct 28, 2017

# ? Oct 28, 2017 02:18

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

dont even fink about it posted:

I suppose adapting the weaboo fightan magic from the 3E book written to create such a thing, Book of Nine Swords, would solve a lot of issues.

An adaptation of the Tome of Battle would solve the "in-combat interactivity and options" problem, and would also help with actual damage (that I've been told isn't really a problem in 5e?), but it wouldn't completely alleviate the "narrative control" problem, since the Wizard still has mind-affecting spells, flight, conjuration, and transmutation.

Ultimately, fixing the disparity in 4e didn't just mean giving the Fighter more toys to play with, it also meant limiting the toys of the casters.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 03:00

Name Change: Oct 9, 2005

gradenko_2000 posted:

An adaptation of the Tome of Battle would solve the "in-combat interactivity and options" problem, and would also help with actual damage (that I've been told isn't really a problem in 5e?), but it wouldn't completely alleviate the "narrative control" problem, since the Wizard still has mind-affecting spells, flight, conjuration, and transmutation.

Ultimately, fixing the disparity in 4e didn't just mean giving the Fighter more toys to play with, it also meant limiting the toys of the casters.

Yes but as this began, you can only do so much before realizing that you should just be playing a different game (adapting hundreds of ToB things into "fighter spells" is already too much)

# ? Oct 28, 2017 03:04

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

Kinda wish I could be bothered doing a similar "...with followers" for other classes, because a thief with a team would be cool, and so would a barbarian with a mini horde. Or monks that follow the law of conservation of ninjitsu.

Or a whole summoner class that works on a similar frame and thus doesn't gently caress with the action economy or require 10+ attack rolls on an average turn. Archetypes for that could be Elemental, Demonic, and Undead?

Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Oct 28, 2017

# ? Oct 28, 2017 03:21

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

gradenko_2000 posted:

An adaptation of the Tome of Battle would solve the "in-combat interactivity and options" problem, and would also help with actual damage (that I've been told isn't really a problem in 5e?), but it wouldn't completely alleviate the "narrative control" problem, since the Wizard still has mind-affecting spells, flight, conjuration, and transmutation.

Ultimately, fixing the disparity in 4e didn't just mean giving the Fighter more toys to play with, it also meant limiting the toys of the casters.

Non-casters can do plenty sufficient amount of damage if they have access to feats and use polearms or hand crossbows. Without those feats, their damage would absolutely plummet.

Feats, of course, are meant to be optional.

This conversation is entirely academic - 5e fighters will never be "fixed" because they are working according to design.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 03:49

Wrestlepig: Feb 25, 2011; my mum says im cool; Toilet Rascal

Shitshow posted:

Just for fun, are there any house rules that would make martial classes more interesting to play or is 5E broken beyond that?

Strip out the entire skill system, replace it with d20 roll under a stat and require checks for casting out of combat spells under pressure

# ? Oct 28, 2017 04:56

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

rumble in the bunghole posted:

...require checks for casting out of combat spells under pressure

That's genuinely great. Just need to keyword spells for it, which doesn't seem like it'd be that hard.

Edit to avoid double post: Would anyone be interested in a non caster summoner class? I mean that they'd do "magic", but it's not spell-list spells. Instead, it's about summoning and controlling elementals (archetype 1) or demons (archetype 2). Demonology is what you'd expect - you get a pet and later get more/bigger pets, you have "control dice", it works a bit like the fighter archetype I posted and will play like a tank/controller. Elementalism is about summoning (choose your element) into yourself, works closer to a druid's wildshaping, and will play more like melee or short-range striker. I've got a couple ideas in mind in this direction and I'll probably post about it once they're a bit more developed, but is the idea way off base? Any suggestions for stuff you'd like to see in such a character? Thinking about making Con primary for the abilities, but I can't think of another con-primary class and I wonder if there's a reason I missed.

e2: I like the idea of a "magic" class that isn't a spellcaster, want to play with that a bit, and can't see an obvious problem with the general concept.

Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Oct 28, 2017

# ? Oct 28, 2017 05:22

clusterfuck: Feb 6, 2004

gradenko_2000 posted:

What I'm suggesting is really more of a "mindset", because it can be difficult to come up with a formal, rationalized framework for just how legendary/mythical the martial character should be able to behave without having to rip up enough of the game's guts that you should really just play another system anyway.

Goon Magil Zeal did up a document a while back that has some good ideas in this regard.

This is excellent, even if you're nervous to unleash such powerful fighters it's a ready to roll framework for a unique divine champion. Thanks for reposting.

AlphaDog posted:

Edit to avoid double post: Would anyone be interested in a non caster summoner class? I mean that they'd do "magic", but it's not spell-list spells. Instead, it's about summoning and controlling elementals (archetype 1) or demons (archetype 2). Demonology is what you'd expect - you get a pet and later get more/bigger pets, you have "control dice", it works a bit like the fighter archetype I posted and will play like a tank/controller. Elementalism is about summoning (choose your element) into yourself, works closer to a druid's wildshaping, and will play more like melee or short-range striker. I've got a couple ideas in mind in this direction and I'll probably post about it once they're a bit more developed, but is the idea way off base? Any suggestions for stuff you'd like to see in such a character? Thinking about making Con primary for the abilities, but I can't think of another con-primary class and I wonder if there's a reason I missed.

e2: I like the idea of a "magic" class that isn't a spellcaster, want to play with that a bit, and can't see an obvious problem with the general concept.

Yes, especially the demonology archetype.

While we're sharing house rules, I modified the UA arcane archer as a Ranger conclave with a new 7th level ability to infuse arcane scrolls into arrows. The arcane archer as presented just wasn't arcane enough IMO.

It works in two steps, first the Archer creates a rune arrow from combining a spell scroll and non magical arrow in a ritual, this is intended as a downtime activity. Then in combat the archer primes the rune arrow by expending an Arcane Arrow which as per the UA the Arcane Archer may use twice per short rest.

To make a rune arrow, the Archer must source an arcane scroll which they decipher using an Arcana check.

At 7th level the Arcane Ranger also gains woodcarving skill to carve runes into the arrow shaft. The AR then casts a ritual whereby the runes magically transfer the spells effects from the scroll into the runes of the arrow and readies the spell to be delivered via the arrow head. The scroll is absorbed into the rune arrow as part of the ritual.

The ranger may only create rune arrows of spell level equivalent to their own ranger spell casting ability. So at 7th level the Arcana Ranger can create rune arrows of 1st or 2nd level, then 3rd level opens up at 9th AR level, etc.

While the AR uses an Arcane Arrow �slot� to prime the rune arrow for firing, the AR can not apply either the force damage or the Arcane Shot feature to a rune arrow. Only the magical energy is transferred to the rune arrow and the energy dissipates at the end of the turn or until it strikes a target or surface, triggering the spell.

The spell save DC and level of the spell should be at the Ranger level, as though the Ranger cast it.

In terms of material expense, I�m thinking the scroll manufacture is the expensive part (50gp for a 1st level scroll and up to 2500gp for a 5th level scroll). Once the Ranger has the scroll they can perform the rune arrow ritual anywhere in the wilderness, as fits their theme.

I'm still tweaking the idea and we haven't run it yet, the ranger in question is still only 4th level. If it looks like a stupid idea let me know, it seems balanced to me and a good way to give the Ranger more bang for their buck.

clusterfuck fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Oct 28, 2017

# ? Oct 28, 2017 08:54

Angrymog: Jan 30, 2012; Really Madcats

A little while ago someone posted a list of new Battle master manoeuvrers that they'd written - does anyone have the link? It's not the new archetypes just posted above.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 10:16

mastershakeman: Oct 28, 2008; by vyelkin

Even if you return to the 2e and earlier paradigm - martial classes do vastly more damage, have vastly more options, have vastly more survivability than casters , and casters can be interrupted, don't learn spells right away and are super limited on what they can know, as well as limited by spell components, and add constant time pressure so they're never at full spell loadouts - add all that up and late game wizards and whatever else are still narratively more important. stuff like teleport is game breaking.

The solution my dm uses that I really enjoy is having very powerful martials (fighters are even better than in 2e, rogues all have the assassinate ability and can kill any human/demihuman near automatically) , even more powerful casters once they get up to 10th level or so, and using world and social structures to reign in the freedom of the casters. Mandatory organizations controlling all magic, rules to obey within that and all that jazz. works out pretty well and almost every party we've had has had minimal caster narrative domination because of this.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 14:06

Nickoten: Oct 16, 2005; Now there'll be some quiet in this town.

A fighter should be able to throw a spear and ride it to fly: Cu Chulain could do it, after all.

Similarly, Fighter should be able to barrel through walls, Monks should be able to glide their move speed while falling like ~5 ft. per round, and Rogues should be able to dive through occupied enemy spaces, contorting themselves as they dodge enemy blows.

In a D&D world, you can accomplish this by having a separate chart for all those skill checks. A Wizard who gets a 24 on a jump check should mean something different from a Fighter who gets a 24 on a jump check. Alternatively, just let the Fighter never again roll for certain things, or make it always fail forward ala PbtA.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 15:37

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

Alternatively, force magic to adhere to the system rather than having everything devolve into freeform nonsense.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 15:42

mastershakeman: Oct 28, 2008; by vyelkin

The biggest question to answer is whether martials and nonmartials should have similar resource management. In a lot of newer games the answer seems to be yes, as with 4e, but in 3/5/pf the answer is no. You need to resolve that and if you're going to house rule 5e to have martials with the same management as casters you probably shouldn't even be playing 5e.

Throwing a spear to fly is a good example. Thor and mjolnir is the other obvious one we've all seen. Can fighting man do this 1/day? 10/day? every round, forever, no limits? Does he have a movement rate or is it whatever he wants it to be? etc

mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Oct 28, 2017

# ? Oct 28, 2017 15:53

kingcom: Jun 23, 2012

Conspiratiorist posted:

Alternatively, force magic to adhere to the system rather than having everything devolve into freeform nonsense.

Yeah imagine if there was an ability that lets you just have whatever you want or can think of can happen. Like some kind of wish coming true.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 15:55

Nickoten: Oct 16, 2005; Now there'll be some quiet in this town.

mastershakeman posted:

The biggest question to answer is whether martials and nonmartials should have similar resource management. In a lot of newer games the answer seems to be yes, as with 4e, but in 3/5/pf the answer is no. You need to resolve that and if you're going to house rule 5e to have martials with the same management as casters you probably shouldn't even be playing 5e.

Throwing a spear to fly is a good example. Thor and mjolnir is the other obvious one we've all seen. Can fighting man do this 1/day? 10/day? every round, forever, no limits? Does he have a movement rate or is it whatever he wants it to be? etc

I bet this could partially be solved by reexamining how HP works. If HP actually in practice did what Gygax wrote it was supposed to represent in the 70s, we should be able to use it to power limited resource "exertion" abilities.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 16:18

Polo-Rican: Jul 4, 2004; emptyquote my posts or die

Shitshow posted:

Just for fun, are there any house rules that would make martial classes more interesting to play or is 5E broken beyond that?

Imho letting martials attempt aimed attacks makes a big difference: they can try to chop at the weapon hand specifically to disarm the enemy, the eyes to blind, a leg to slow it down, etc. There's nothing in the rules about this.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 16:26

Reene: Aug 26, 2005

Martials in 5E are pretty effective in combat. You could give them the ability to inflict status effects too I guess, but that doesn't address the issue of them not being able to really alter or contribute to a narrative in the same way a Wizard can short of "stick a sword in it."

Martials should be able to do poo poo like effectively teleport like some kind of ninja, run up walls, bash through walls/doors, glower at someone so frighteningly that they are compelled to do what the big scary woman with the sword wants, use a combination of shadow puppets and throwing their voice to trick enemies into thinking they're somewhere else, make an actual weapon out of literally anything lying around, leap so high and far it's like they're flying, holler at someone so hard they faint or run away, tell someone if they don't do X you'll find them and their whole family so they better do it, and so on. None of that has to be magic, it's just stuff they can do because they're just that good. They're the sneakiest or the strongest or the scariest dude around and that should come with all the accompanying perks.

Other games manage to do poo poo like this, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to do it in D&D beyond extremely antiquated notions about fundamental game design.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 17:06

OutsideAngel: May 4, 2008

It's not like it's hard to allow strong heroes to achieve fantastic feats on par with what magicians can do.

quote:

The Challenge: "You must clean out a hundred stables before sundown."

The Wizard: "I summon dozens of Unseen Servants to mop and scrub."

The Fighter: "I move a loving river and use it as a hose."

It's just the that the people who make D&D don't want to.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 17:25

mastershakeman: Oct 28, 2008; by vyelkin

Right, because at that point you can just have one class and reflavor how you're solving problems by having the player describe how it's done. It's a different game.

Using HP as stamina to power abilities would be cool but also super fiddly and probably better suited for a video game although I really like the idea.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 17:39

Reene: Aug 26, 2005

They're distinct classes for the same reason that wizards and sorcerers are distinct classes despite drawing from almost the exact same pool of potential powers.

Wizards et al don't use mana, why would martials need to keep track of something like stamina? Just limit it to X number of uses per day based on level ala spell slots. I mean you could also have it work like Chi or Psi points I guess, depending on what kind of system you want.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 17:44

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

mastershakeman posted:

Right, because at that point you can just have one class and reflavor how you're solving problems by having the player describe how it's done. It's a different game.

D&D already largely does this and yet justifies itself all the same

# ? Oct 28, 2017 18:04

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Fighters don't even need anything like a wizard's versatility or travel power or whatever. They just need to be able to do something so consequential that it'd be broken if it was on any shorter of a cooldown than "per long rest".

Oh, and they need to unlock more powerful daily powers as they level.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 18:09

OutsideAngel: May 4, 2008

mastershakeman posted:

Right, because at that point you can just have one class and reflavor how you're solving problems by having the player describe how it's done. It's a different game.

So in your strawman boogeymonster game, every player at the table can engage in every part of the action but has to approach each challenge in a way that is unique to their character?

Is that supposed to sound like a bad thing?

# ? Oct 28, 2017 18:19

Ambi: Dec 30, 2011; Leave it to me

AlphaDog posted:

Kinda wish I could be bothered doing a similar "...with followers" for other classes, because a thief with a team would be cool, and so would a barbarian with a mini horde. Or monks that follow the law of conservation of ninjitsu.

Or a whole summoner class that works on a similar frame and thus doesn't gently caress with the action economy or require 10+ attack rolls on an average turn. Archetypes for that could be Elemental, Demonic, and Undead?

Those sound real rad, and I might do something around those, if you're comfortable with me stealing the idea?

I also made a Fighter+Companions subclass, but more Minion-focused. Less formations and more specialised minion roles.

Since I'm linking it, that's also my big dumpster of Homebrew stuff - anything marked TBC in the table of contents is in some stage of incompletion, from "just an idea" or "half-finished mechanics", to "just missing representative art".
Most complete sections are: Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Warlock, Artificer.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 18:30

Raar_Im_A_Dinosaur: Mar 16, 2006; GOOD LUCK!!

AlphaDog posted:

That's genuinely great. Just need to keyword spells for it, which doesn't seem like it'd be that hard.

Edit to avoid double post: Would anyone be interested in a non caster summoner class? I mean that they'd do "magic", but it's not spell-list spells. Instead, it's about summoning and controlling elementals (archetype 1) or demons (archetype 2). Demonology is what you'd expect - you get a pet and later get more/bigger pets, you have "control dice", it works a bit like the fighter archetype I posted and will play like a tank/controller. Elementalism is about summoning (choose your element) into yourself, works closer to a druid's wildshaping, and will play more like melee or short-range striker. I've got a couple ideas in mind in this direction and I'll probably post about it once they're a bit more developed, but is the idea way off base? Any suggestions for stuff you'd like to see in such a character? Thinking about making Con primary for the abilities, but I can't think of another con-primary class and I wonder if there's a reason I missed.

e2: I like the idea of a "magic" class that isn't a spellcaster, want to play with that a bit, and can't see an obvious problem with the general concept.

Those both sound awesome and I totally dig the idea of non-magic magic.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 18:36

Traveller: Jan 6, 2012; WHIM AND FOPPERY

OutsideAngel posted:

So in your strawman boogeymonster game, every player at the table can engage in every part of the action but has to approach each challenge in a way that is unique to their character?

Is that supposed to sound like a bad thing?

This is just Encounter Critical, isn't it? Where everyone has Invisibility as a skill, but the Wizards actually become invisible while Criminals hide behind something and Warriors go "actually, you didn't see me" at the poor scared guards.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 19:23

Nihilarian: Oct 2, 2013

3.5 had a few non-caster magic classes, like the Incarnum classes or the Binder

Edit: And I believe a non-caster shapeshifter is being released for Pathfinder

Nihilarian fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Oct 28, 2017

# ? Oct 28, 2017 20:31

Slippery42: Nov 10, 2011

Reene posted:

Martials in 5E are pretty effective in combat. You could give them the ability to inflict status effects too I guess, but that doesn't address the issue of them not being able to really alter or contribute to a narrative in the same way a Wizard can short of "stick a sword in it."

Martials should be able to do poo poo like effectively teleport like some kind of ninja, run up walls, bash through walls/doors, glower at someone so frighteningly that they are compelled to do what the big scary woman with the sword wants, use a combination of shadow puppets and throwing their voice to trick enemies into thinking they're somewhere else, make an actual weapon out of literally anything lying around, leap so high and far it's like they're flying, holler at someone so hard they faint or run away, tell someone if they don't do X you'll find them and their whole family so they better do it, and so on. None of that has to be magic, it's just stuff they can do because they're just that good. They're the sneakiest or the strongest or the scariest dude around and that should come with all the accompanying perks.

Other games manage to do poo poo like this, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to do it in D&D beyond extremely antiquated notions about fundamental game design.

Bolded what Shadow Monks can already do without a skill check or resource expenditure required. Most of the remainder could be argued as skill checks, so Barbarians and Rogues can ensure success at them at-will with Indomitable Might or Reliable Talent once they hit high enough level. Totem barbarians can fly to some extent, and Wo4E monks can fly to a much fuller extent (but then you'd have to play a Wo4E monk).

# ? Oct 28, 2017 21:12

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

Ambi posted:

Those sound real rad, and I might do something around those, if you're comfortable with me stealing the idea?

The concept of "stealing ideas" isn't really something I believe in, so yeah, go crazy on those single sentence original-character-classes-do-not-steal, I'll be happy if they actually get made .

If you end up using something I actually wrote (eg, you re-write the Commander archetype with some minor changes) in something you sell, it'd be cool if you attributed me.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 21:55

The Crotch: Oct 16, 2012; by Nyc_Tattoo

I love that barbarians explicitly get "sorcerer flight, but worse" at the same level as sorcerers.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 21:57

Magil Zeal: Nov 24, 2008

Angrymog posted:

A little while ago someone posted a list of new Battle master manoeuvrers that they'd written - does anyone have the link? It's not the new archetypes just posted above.

If you're referring to mine, it's a bit of a toned-down version of the material that was posted by gradenko: here. I basically reworked most of the exploit concepts into battle master maneuvers.

# ? Oct 28, 2017 22:08

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

Here's a a sketch of the first 5 levels of Demonologist. There's only one archetype available, and I haven't written the "additional bindings" for that archetype yet. Right track? Wrong track entirely? Obviously I haven't playtested anything. Criticism and suggestions welcome.

quote:

DEMONOLOGIST

CLASS FEATURES

Hit points: 1d8 per Demonologist level
Hit points at first level: 8 + your Constitution modifier
Hit points at hihger levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per demonologist level after 1st.

PROFICIENCIES

Armor: Light armor
Weapons: Simple weapons, Whip, Net.
Tools: Calligrapher's tools
Saving throws: Constitution, Charisma
Skills: Choose two skills from Arcana, History, Religion, Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation

EQUIPMENT

You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:

* (a) a whip or (b) a net
* (a) 5 javelins or (b) any simple ranged weapon with 20 ammunition
* (a) a Scholar's pack or (b) a Dungeoneer's pack.
* Leather armor, two daggers, and calligrapher's tools

DEMONOLOGY

You know the secrets of summoning otherworldly creatures and binding them to your will with a magical contract. Starting from first level, you gain the ability to create one contract, allowing you to summon and bind one creature, who you control using special dice called CONTRACT DICE. You create an additional contract at levels 3, 9, and 15. A contract binds one otherworldly creature to your will, intertwining its fate with your own. You can summon the creature into physical existance at will, but need a short rest before you can do so again. You cannot usually dismiss or banish a creature once it is summoned (but see "banishment"). Your contracted creatures act on your turn.

LINKED DESTINIES

You and your contracted creatures are inextricably linked by the contract. Attacks made by your contracted creatures use your attack and damage numbers. Attacks made against your contracted creatures target your defenses and reduce your hit points. You and your summoned creatures cannot be affected twice by any one attack, even if an area of effect would affect two or more of you. Your contracted creatures use your movement rate(s) unless specified. You may make your attacks as if you were in the position of yourself or any of your contracted creatures. Controlling contracted creatures might take a terrible toll on your body if you were not physically tough. If a contracted creature's ability calls on you to make an attack roll, add your CON modifier to the roll rather than another stat. This does not apply to attacks made by you, which work as normal. Unless otherwise specified, add your CON mod to a damage roll for a contracted creature's ability.

BINDINGS

A Binding specifies the duties of a contracted creature. Each contract includes two basic bindings (see contract list) You are capable of including two additional bindings per contract, choose these when you gain the contract. When you gain a new contract, you may renegotiate (switch) any one of the additional bindings on any existing contract. You may not renegotiate basic bindings.

CONTROL DICE

Some of your contracted creatures' abilities require you to use a Control Dice. You gain 2 Control Dice at level 3, and additional Control Dice at levels 5, (7, 11, 13, 17)**. Your control dice are d12s. You regain all your control dice at the end of a (short or)** long rest.

PRENTICE CONTRACT

At level 1, you gain the PRENTICE contract. The creature takes the form of an unnatural, horrible looking monkey with small horns and vesitgial bat wings. Attacks directed at the Prentice (and not at you) target an AC equal to your AC + 2.

Basic Bindings:
Claw: As an attack action, make a melee attack against one target. Damage 1d8.
Help: As a bonus action, Prentice can Help an adjacent ally.

ADDITIONAL BINDINGS

Level 1
Shieldbearer: The contracted creature appears to bear a ghostly shield. The contracted creature provides a +1 bonus to AC for any one adjacent ally.
Bodyguard: When a creature attacks an ally adjacent to the contracted creature, use your reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll.
Fleshmould: The creature can heal an adjacent ally an amount of hit points equal to (your CON mod +2)**. You need to complete a long rest before you can use this binding again.
Spear: The creature summons a ghostly spear and attacks with it. Make a ranged attack roll. Damage 1d8, range 40 feet.
(Level 3, 9, 15 for more legion-nonspecific bindings)**

LEGION

At 3rd level, choose a LEGION of otherwordly creatures to specialise in. (Flame, Shadow, Flesh)** Your archetype determines which contracts are available to you, and allows you to choose extra Additional Bindings (new summon at levels 3, 9, 15)**.

LEGION OF FLAME

LEVEL 3: YMP

Ymp is a thorny looking humanoid with fiery red eyes and leathery skin with patches of fine brown fur, standing about 4 feet tall. When Ymp is summoned and any Binding calls for a ranged attack, the attack roll is made with a +2 bonus.

Basic Bindings:
Flame Spear: Ymp summons and throws a spear of dark flame. As an attack action, target one creature within 120 feet. Make a ranged attack. 1d10 Fire damage. The ability's damage increases to 2d10 at level 5.
Fiery Rebuttal: When you or Ymp could make an opportunity attack (or are struck with a melee attack)**, use your reaction to expend a control die and roll it. Any opponents adjacent to you or Ymp take that much fire damage (dex save for half).

(additional bindings for Legion of Flame)**

Anything marked ** isn't even close to done, and in most cases means "I don't know what exactly will go there yet".

e: Various edits for typos I missed in notepad etc.

Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Oct 28, 2017

# ? Oct 28, 2017 23:03

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# ? May 14, 2024 14:33

clusterfuck: Feb 6, 2004

AlphaDog posted:

a sketch of the first 5 levels of Demonologist.

That's very promising, I like the idea of a character that's a puppetmaster behind the curtain.

I kinda want to see this as a monster but crossed with a harvester from SotDL. The idea is it's a being whose multiple deals with devils and demons means it refuses to die and consign it's soul to eternal torment so it replaces it's own body parts to put off death indefinitely, perhaps by taking on the 'Harvester" contract with yet another devil. It's patchwork body has copies of the multiple contracts embedded in various gory nooks. It may end up being a mentor to a PC demonologist who reckons they can handle the power and not end up like their mentor. I quite like the idea of character who has replaced every part of their body but is still legally bound by the contracts - there ends up nothing left but a scheming and binding contractual obligation in roughly human form.

For example I might adapt this idea in my Out of the Abyss and set up Ilvara as so disgraced by the PCs she refuses to die and face Lolths scorn and so cuts a harvester deal with the demon about to slay her. She can still redeem the contract with the demon and in the eyes of Lolth if she can recapture the PCs.

# ? Oct 29, 2017 02:07

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