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Pissflaps posted:Apparently this tweet Delicious delicious irony if true (there's nothing decided yet), and the Catalan government can't even object to this because they gave Aran the right to decide for themselves in 2015 just to shut them up.
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Oct 28, 2017 10:49
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Surprise Giraffe posted:I don't see how the EU isn't hosed now. No matter which way they side, unless they persuade everyone to reset back three months or something, they have to stand to one side either for separatism or anti-democracy. Plenty of people don't consider the referendum democratic because it wasn't officially sanctioned and had a relatively low turn-out. Whatever Spain did to sabotage it worked in regards to the international community.
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Oct 28, 2017 11:24
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Pissflaps posted:Apparently this tweet English article: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...n-idUSKBN1CE1D9
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Oct 28, 2017 11:37
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So are there going to be tanks in the street? Or are they just going to successfully arrest the Catalan president and his cabinet and face no real public resistance from the Barcelona public?
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Oct 28, 2017 11:57
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icantfindaname posted:So are there going to be tanks in the street? Or are they just going to successfully arrest the Catalan president and his cabinet and face no real public resistance from the Barcelona public? At the moment it seems more like Madrid can just send them a message "please come to this police station to get arrested" and the Catalan administration would follow that order. They are not really doing anything that you would expect a new sovereign country to do, like printing passports, closing the border, seizing assets or really anything. It's kabuki theater and nothing more.
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Oct 28, 2017 12:03
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Pissflaps posted:Apparently this tweet The general council of Vall d'Aran denies this.The meeting instead is to discuss the legal consequences of the article 155 application for the Vall d'Aran, since it has a special status within Catalonia as a result of a 2015 Catalan law. icantfindaname posted:So are there going to be tanks in the street? Or are they just going to successfully arrest the Catalan president and his cabinet and face no real public resistance from the Barcelona public? Catalonia is not Chile, September 1973, or Beijjing, June 1989. Don't get too excited. There aren't going to be any tanks; courts and bank accounts will be weapon enough. People will be hurt in all sorts of ways (socially and economically) even without violence and we should remember that. Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Oct 28, 2017 |
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Oct 28, 2017 12:05
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Pluskut Tukker posted:The general council of Vall d'Aran denies this.The meeting instead is to discuss the legal consequences of the article 155 application for the Vall d'Aran, since it has a special status within Catalonia as a result of a 2015 Catalan law. That's good to know, thanks for looking it up! Pluskut Tukker posted:Catalonia is not Chile, September 1973, or Beijjing, June 1989. Don't get too excited. There aren't going to be any tanks; courts and bank accounts will be weapon enough. People will be hurt in all sorts of ways (socially and economically) even without violence and we should remember that. Yeah, this fixation with tanks is honestly pretty weird.
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Oct 28, 2017 12:20
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Yeah, that isn’t how any of this is going to work. If the Catalan government doesn’t step down on Monday, they will face charges for usurping authority. No need to send tanks anywhere, that would be monumentally stupid (though I’m sure some of Rajoy’s voters are all for it). I’m more concerned with what the CUP and other hardcore pro-independence organisations might try to do.
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Oct 28, 2017 12:26
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How many tanks does Spain have anyway? What type? How soon could they be deployed on the streets of Barcelona?
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Oct 28, 2017 12:28
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beer_war posted:That's good to know, thanks for looking it up! Truth be told I just follow the Spain Report (who seem to be decently reliable) on Twitter as well as reading some Spanish newspapers so it wasn't too much trouble  . Also, per El Confidencial (which I don't know the reliability of), Puigdemont is reported as having given orders to his Cabinet that they should not resist the takeover of the Generalitat, that everything should remain peaceful, and that the civil servants should cooperate fully with Madrid throughout the article 155 implementations. So it looks like there will be no blood, thankfully.
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Oct 28, 2017 12:30
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Sinteres posted:Nobody's feeling as conflicted about this as you think they are. Everyone outside of Spain is on Spain's side. What the gently caress is this, national governments aren't going to support Catalonia simply because they don't want to encourage their own separatist movements and they prefer stability, it doesn't mean everyone in those countries is okay with the brutal suppression of a peaceful separatist movement setting out to achieve its goals by democratic means. I wish them all the best, though I think they have a long struggle ahead of them.
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Oct 28, 2017 12:47
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Pissflaps posted:How many tanks does Spain have anyway? What type? How soon could they be deployed on the streets of Barcelona? Because it's you flaps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Army#Equipment Don't care otherwise
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Oct 28, 2017 12:56
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Phlegmish posted:What the gently caress is this, national governments aren't going to support Catalonia simply because they don't want to encourage their own separatist movements and they prefer stability, it doesn't mean everyone in those countries is okay with the brutal suppression of a peaceful separatist movement setting out to achieve its goals by democratic means. "Brutal"
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Oct 28, 2017 13:03
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Over 800 injured in a single day in a western democracy does fall under brutal yes.
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Oct 28, 2017 13:10
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MiddleOne posted:Over 800 injured in a single day in a western democracy does fall under brutal yes. poo poo, maybe the police should have arrested more of the Hamburg protesters then given how brutal they were? https://www.thelocal.de/20170710/g20-number-of-injured-police-close-to-500-after-three-days-of-rioting-in-hamburg I mean seriously, get a grip. 800 injured in a day of violent protests isn't brutal repression by the central government.
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Oct 28, 2017 13:18
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MiddleOne posted:Over 800 injured in a single day in a western democracy does fall under brutal yes. That depends on your definition of an injured person.
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Oct 28, 2017 13:22
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Phlegmish posted:What the gently caress is this, national governments aren't going to support Catalonia simply because they don't want to encourage their own separatist movements and they prefer stability, it doesn't mean everyone in those countries is okay with the brutal suppression of a peaceful separatist movement setting out to achieve its goals by democratic means. I meant their governments, since I was responding to a post about the EU. Public opinion outside of Spain doesn't really matter much, since nobody's voting based on how their government treats a separatist movement that could barely even be bothered to pass a resolution.
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Oct 28, 2017 13:24
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beer_war posted:Yeah, this fixation with tanks is honestly pretty weird. I thought a bunch of posters hoping that they got sent in was pretty interesting.
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Oct 28, 2017 13:31
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Some people simply don't want to admit that Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
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Oct 28, 2017 13:33
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Geriatric Pirate posted:poo poo, maybe the police should have arrested more of the Hamburg protesters then given how brutal they were? It's okay for Spanish police to be brutal because anti-G20 protesters in Hamburg were...brutal...? What? 33 police officers were injured in Catalonia, according to the Spanish Interior Ministry's own figures. None of them were hospitalized. If your posting of that link wasn't a complete non sequitur, it would seem to be in support of the fact that the national police's repression of people attempting to put a piece of paper into a box on the 1st of October was incredibly disproportionate and violent. So thank you for that. Pictured, ultraviolent Catalan youths getting what's coming to them: 
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Oct 28, 2017 13:34
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Surprise Giraffe posted:I don't see how the EU isn't hosed now. No matter which way they side, unless they persuade everyone to reset back three months or something, they have to stand to one side either for separatism or anti-democracy. The (unelected) EU is fundamentally anti democratic in its existance. I dont think they give a poo poo about looking anti democratic, their philosophy is to centralize the power as much as possible.
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Oct 28, 2017 13:35
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People should stop liberally using the word "democratic" everytime they talk about something they dislike, it really cheapens it. Also Puigdemont just went live and issued a statement, sadly I missed it and don't know what he said because I was taking a dump. EDIT: https://www.thespainreport.com/arti...ilding-republic Angry Lobster fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Oct 28, 2017 |
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Oct 28, 2017 13:39
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Phlegmish posted:It's okay for Spanish police to be brutal because anti-G20 protesters in Hamburg were...brutal...? What? There’s a video showing how this woman got injured. She fell down the stairs.
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Oct 28, 2017 13:44
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Ardennes posted:I thought a bunch of posters hoping that they got sent in was pretty interesting. I'm a bit shocked, I'll admit that. I've secretly always admired posters like GaussianCopula and Geriatric Pirate for standing their ground against the D&D onslaught, even if I often found myself disagreeing with them. I thought they were just principled liberals. I could understand opposition to Catalan separatism in itself, but this defense and even glorification of state violence and repression is a bit nauseating and unexpected. Pissflaps posted:There’s a video showing how this woman got injured. I haven't seen that video, but certainly the point still stands that most of the injured were not balaclava-wearing rioters. Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Oct 28, 2017 |
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Oct 28, 2017 13:47
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Phlegmish posted:I'm a bit shocked, I'll admit that. I've secretly always admired posters like GaussianCopula and Geriatric Pirate for standing their ground against the D&D onslaught, even if I often found myself disagreeing with them. I thought they were just principled liberals. I could understand opposition to Catalan separatism in itself, but this defense and even glorification of state violence and repression is a bit nauseating and unexpected. You thought GaussianCopula, with his giant rap sheet for being a literal Nazi, was a principled liberal? 
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Oct 28, 2017 13:51
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I thought his gimmick was just to defend austerity and liberalism in general, which I don't really agree with, but I can at least respect the courage to keep going every day despite overwhelming opposition. I hadn't really seen much quasi-fascist stuff from him until this whole Catalan crisis, but could be that I wasn't paying attention.Angry Lobster posted:People should stop liberally using the word "democratic" everytime they talk about something they dislike, it really cheapens it. They're going to need something a bit more concrete than that, but I guess that's not necessarily something you want to announce beforehand in a public speech. Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Oct 28, 2017 |
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Oct 28, 2017 13:57
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Phlegmish posted:It's okay for Spanish police to be brutal because anti-G20 protesters in Hamburg were...brutal...? What? Phlegmish posted:I'm a bit shocked, I'll admit that. I've secretly always admired posters like GaussianCopula and Geriatric Pirate for standing their ground against the D&D onslaught, even if I often found myself disagreeing with them. I thought they were just principled liberals. I could understand opposition to Catalan separatism in itself, but this defense and even glorification of state violence and repression is a bit nauseating and unexpected. I'm not even sure what I think about Catalan separatism. All of my posts on the topic have been making fun of you guys for being hysterical internet leftists who see a picture of that lady and assume the Spanish government has sent tanks in to shoot at civilians. You make fun of people all the time for overreacting to news hysteria about migrant crimes or something and then you go do the exact same thing when it's a cause that you actually support. When people like Ardennes comparing this to Hungary 1956 and Tesseraction posting "  Catalan civilians" from the comfort of their basements thousands of kilometers away from Catalonia it's just silly. Then there are the posters who are crying about the EU not doing enough to help these oppressed people or something. So far the only "violent" the Spanish government has done is send in police to block an illegal vote, which seems like a pretty reasonable response given that the referendum doesn't really meet any international criteria for being valid. Should the central government in Madrid give the Catalans a chance for a proper referendum, like the Scotland one? That's a different question.
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Oct 28, 2017 14:02
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Story from the BBC on the level of police violence in the referendum, also showing what people were treated for per the Catalan health department. The Spanish interior ministry has updated its figures to claim that 431 members of the police and Guardia Civil were injured. There's no reason to doubt that there was excessive brutality, but it'd probably a good idea to treat all the figures people are throwing around on the number of injured with a bit more scepticism, on both sides.
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Oct 28, 2017 14:02
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Geriatric Pirate posted:So far the only "violent" the Spanish government has done is send in police to block an illegal vote, which seems like a pretty reasonable response given that the referendum doesn't really meet any international criteria for being valid. Should the central government in Madrid give the Catalans a chance for a proper referendum, like the Scotland one? That's a different question. And why is it a different question?
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Oct 28, 2017 14:11
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Geriatric Pirate posted:I'm saying that I didn't hear that many left-wing D&D posters talking about how brutal the protesters in Hamburg were even though they managed to injure almost as many people as the police in Catalonia. And the people they injured were police, which means it was targeted violence (as opposed to someone falling down the stairs) I do not consider myself to be a leftist and I assume most people here don't, not that it's all that relevant. Did this just automatically get slotted in the culture war for you? It's okay to form your own opinion on matters, obsessive spite doesn't have to be the only criterion. It doesn't even make sense in that context, as most people here seem to be supporting Spain anyway. Pluskut Tukker posted:Story from the BBC on the level of police violence in the referendum, also showing what people were treated for per the Catalan health department. The Spanish interior ministry has updated its figures to claim that 431 members of the police and Guardia Civil were injured. There's no reason to doubt that there was excessive brutality, but it'd probably a good idea to treat all the figures people are throwing around on the number of injured with a bit more scepticism, on both sides. You would have to be naive to think that both sides aren't inflating figures, or that separatists weren't jumping on the chance to present themselves as victims, but the narrative that both sides were equally bad is obviously nonsense. As you said, there was excessive brutality. Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Oct 28, 2017 |
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Oct 28, 2017 14:11
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Phlegmish posted:They're going to need something a bit more concrete than that, but I guess that's not necessarily something you want to announce beforehand in a public speech. What do you think will happen next? They are basically saying "come and get us".
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Oct 28, 2017 14:19
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Angry Lobster posted:What do you think will happen next? They are basically saying "come and get us". I think Madrid will come and get them, and reaction will be muted. My impression of Catalan separatists is that they are very enthusiastic and impassioned, but it also seems to be a largely white-collar middle-class movement consisting of people who don't know how to fight, don't know how to riot, and who have too much to lose. The crux of the matter is that Madrid is much more willing to use violence than the Catalans are. The difficult part for the central government will be determining exactly the right amount of violence to use. I don't like it one bit, but that's my assessment.
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Oct 28, 2017 14:26
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MiddleOne posted:Over 800 injured in a single day in a western democracy does fall under brutal yes. Ironically, Spanish Police (even believing the 800+ injuries, which by all neutral accounts are exaggerated for political gain) has So the Spanish government is actually lessening the amount of police brutality in Catalonia by deposing the Generalitat. Hooray I guess.
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Oct 28, 2017 14:33
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Phlegmish posted:You would have to be naive to think that both sides aren't inflating figures, or that separatists weren't jumping on the chance to present themselves as victims, but the narrative that both sides were equally bad is obviously nonsense. As you said, there was excessive brutality. I didn't mean to claim that both sides were equally bad. Obviously, only one side had truncheons and rubber bullets.My distrust is based on the fact that it's rather odd that with such a large scale and brutal police response, people still thought it was necessary to distribute fake photos, or photos and videos of people injured or brutalised by police on distinct occasions years ago, such as the photo posted in this thread of striking firefighters getting beaten up by the Catalan police being used to show the brutality of the Spanish. You would think that in the age of the Iphone, 800 cases of people being injured with lots of people present would provide for far more photo and video to demonstrate the brutality of the police. I should add that my perception of the Catalan separatists is coloured by the fact that the ones I've tried to argue with all seemed almost religiously motivated by their cause and impervious to reason. And then there are the ones engaging in historical revisionism or talking about how Catalans are genetically different from the Spanish. So they may be enthusiastic and impassioned, but they're still nationalists, and therefore not to be trusted.
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Oct 28, 2017 14:50
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smoke sumthin bitch posted:The (unelected) EU is fundamentally anti democratic in its existance. I dont think they give a poo poo about looking anti democratic, their philosophy is to centralize the power as much as possible. Lol
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Oct 28, 2017 14:54
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Fat Samurai posted:Ironically, Spanish Police (even believing the 800+ injuries, which by all neutral accounts are exaggerated for political gain) has Two wrongs does not make one right. Pluskut Tukker posted:I should add that my perception of the Catalan separatists is coloured by the fact that the ones I've tried to argue with all seemed almost religiously motivated by their cause and impervious to reason. And then there are the ones engaging in historical revisionism or talking about how Catalans are genetically different from the Spanish. So they may be enthusiastic and impassioned, but they're still nationalists, and therefore not to be trusted. It's not like you can actually have a nation without first manufacturing a national myth so what people do is that they grasp for whatever tenuous justifications they can find. For other cases of this, see every nation-state ever.
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Oct 28, 2017 15:11
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MiddleOne posted:It's not like you can actually have a nation without first manufacturing a national myth so what people do is that they grasp for whatever tenuous justifications they can find. For other cases of this, see every nation-state ever. Glad that you seem to agree nationalism is bad. So why encourage more of it? Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Oct 28, 2017 |
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Oct 28, 2017 15:14
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Cracking down to safeguard the inviolable unity of Spain is also a form of nationalism. In fact, you may remember their side was literally called the Nationalists during the Spanish Civil War.
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Oct 28, 2017 15:19
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Phlegmish posted:I thought his gimmick was just to defend austerity and liberalism in general, which I don't really agree with, but I can at least respect the courage to keep going every day despite overwhelming opposition. I hadn't really seen much quasi-fascist stuff from him until this whole Catalan crisis, but could be that I wasn't paying attention.
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Oct 28, 2017 15:22
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Glad that you agree nationalism is bad. So why encourage more of it? Because power-relations and historical context matter. I'm not going to berate Catalonian nationalism for the same reason I'm not going to berate say the kurds, Taiwan, Scotland, Ireland, Ukraine, South Korea, Palestine, Cyprus, Kazakhstan or Poland for their nationalism. Or are you going to claim that there have been no real attempts to suppress or even destroy Catalonian culture within living memory? That nationalism is a dumpster fire of a political ideology (that somehow always drifts into manufacturing imagined threats) does not mean that it is always unwarranted. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Oct 28, 2017 |
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Oct 28, 2017 15:30
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