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doverhog posted:What if you genuinely fear for your life and believe they are about to kill you, or lie convincingly about it later? Are you a cop?
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Oct 28, 2017 15:19
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That was the joke, yes.
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Oct 28, 2017 15:21
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doverhog posted:What if you genuinely fear for your life and believe they are about to kill you, or lie convincingly about it later? A genuine fear isn't sufficient. What if you're a giant pussy and get scared for no reason? There's an *objective* standard that must be met. Good luck lying convincingly about it later if you're not a cop. Fighting words is a *lot* narrower than you seem to think it is. Obnoxious street preaching doesn't rise to that level. https://www.thefire.org/misconceptions-about-the-fighting-words-exception/ quote:Seven years after the decision, the Supreme Court began to limit the Chaplinsky holding. In Terminiello v. Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 (1949), the petitioner, a preacher, was convicted of disturbing the peace for delivering a fiery speech to a large, restless crowd in which he denounced various political and ethnic groups. In invalidating his conviction, the majority stated:
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Oct 28, 2017 15:29
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Phanatic posted:No. gently caress the law, just because something is legal doesn’t mean it’s right, if it keeps the rear end in a top hat away from that school then good on her.
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Oct 28, 2017 15:34
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doverhog posted:What if you genuinely fear for your life and believe they are about to kill you, or lie convincingly about it later? Real talk: in most states the legal threshold for self defense action is three parts: Opportunity Capability Jeopardy Do they have the opportunity to hurt you (are they physically in a position to do you harm)? Do they have the capability to hurt you (do they have an item or other means they can use as a weapon to harm you)? Have they put you in jeopardy (through word or action is there a reason to believe they will harm you)? What constitutes "hurt" can vary by state, but in my state "great physical harm" is anything that will cause a broken bone or permanent scar, or cause death. There's also kidnapping, rape, and arson. For example, someone knocks on your door, you open it and it's a large angry man holding a tire iron. Can you attack him in self defense? No. He has opportunity (he's right in front of you), he has capability (the tire iron) but he has not put you in jeopardy (other than look angry he hasnt done or said anything to indicate hes going to hurt you. Looking angry is probably not enough in court, since that's subjective). He's angry not at you but at his truck just down the street that has four blown tires and his lovely phone that won't hold a battery charge, so how he has to rely on the kindness of strangers and hope someone has a phone and will let him call for a tow. Another example: across from you is a man holding an axe, and he's yelling at you, "<Your name> I AM GOING TO KILL YOU UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD!" But he's on one lip of the Grand Canyon an you're on the other. He has capability (the axe he's holding), he's put you in jeopardy (clearly declared he's going to kill you) but he has no opportunity (the Grand Canyon separates you). In court you would be defending yourself, and you don't have to prove your innocence, you just have to provide doubt of your guilt. That's why pleas in court are always "guilty" or "not guilty", and not "innocent." It's a whole legal definition bullshit thing. This should all be written in your state laws, go look them up if you're interested in knowing what legal rights you have to defend yourself in your state. If you're really interested, pay a lawyer for an hour of time to have them explain it to you.
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Oct 28, 2017 15:54
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I don't live in the US. In Finland someone has to actually attack you before you can defend yourself, and any defense must be proportional to the threat, and be immediately stopped if the attack stops. Shooting someone who breaks in to your house brandishing a knife is not allowed for example, because a gun is a disproportional defense compared to the knife.
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Oct 28, 2017 16:10
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Phanatic posted:A genuine fear isn't sufficient. What if you're a giant pussy and get scared for no reason? There's an *objective* standard that must be met. ure, but gently caress that guy, girl is right and i hope he gets getting hit.
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Oct 28, 2017 16:17
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doverhog posted:I don't live in the US. In Finland someone has to actually attack you before you can defend yourself, and any defense must be proportional to the threat, and be immediately stopped if the attack stops. Shooting someone who breaks in to your house brandishing a knife is not allowed for example, because a gun is a disproportional defense compared to the knife. So you have to have a knife fight so you both get hurt??
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Oct 28, 2017 16:23
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doverhog posted:I don't live in the US. In Finland someone has to actually attack you before you can defend yourself, and any defense must be proportional to the threat, and be immediately stopped if the attack stops. Shooting someone who breaks in to your house brandishing a knife is not allowed for example, because a gun is a disproportional defense compared to the knife. A lethal weapon isn’t a proportionate response to a lethal weapon?
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Oct 28, 2017 16:26
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This is why I keep a riot shield in my headboard.
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Oct 28, 2017 16:29
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 a shotgun
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Oct 28, 2017 16:31
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chitoryu12 posted:A lethal weapon isn’t a proportionate response to a lethal weapon? You don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
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Oct 28, 2017 16:31
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Lurking Haro posted:You don't bring a knife to a gun fight. some do
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Oct 28, 2017 16:31
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chitoryu12 posted:A lethal weapon isn’t a proportionate response to a lethal weapon? Are they actively stabbing you or someone else when you pull the trigger? The knife isn't lethal if you shoot first, it never even touched you. If someone punches you, and you punch back more than once, chances are you are committing a crime. A second punch is disproportional if they only hit you once so far.
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Oct 28, 2017 16:41
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doverhog posted:Are they actively stabbing you or someone else when you pull the trigger? The knife isn't lethal if you shoot first, it never even touched you. That is an incredibly stupid law
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Oct 28, 2017 16:50
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canyoneer posted:That is an incredibly stupid law Don't besmirch Hammurabi.
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Oct 28, 2017 16:54
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A man brandishing a knife kicked down my front door last night and yelled "poo poo on my dick or blood on my blade!". I had just finished cleaning and reassembling my handgun so it was really disappointing that I wasn't allowed to use it and had to trudge back to the kitchen to find a proper shanker. In his defense he was very patient with me and my questions about his knife's size and whether it was single or double edged, I didn't want to have an unfair advantage in the ensuing mêlée.
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Oct 28, 2017 16:56
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doverhog posted:Are they actively stabbing you or someone else when you pull the trigger? The knife isn't lethal if you shoot first, it never even touched you. But how many pounds of force did you hit with? How many time could you hit Ivan Drago if he hit you once?
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Oct 28, 2017 16:57
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canyoneer posted:That is an incredibly stupid law If they have a knife, you can usually run away. As for punching, if they don't keep punching, they don't want/can hurt you anymore. How about immobilising them instead and call the cops?
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Oct 28, 2017 16:58
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did you poo poo on his dick?
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Oct 28, 2017 16:58
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That's a big uphill climb for a defense to use Fighting Words as a defense for assault and/or battery charges. It's much narrower than people think. e: fb  (<-- not a Fighting Emoji)
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Oct 28, 2017 17:00
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Rough Lobster posted:A man brandishing a knife kicked down my front door last night and yelled "poo poo on my dick or blood on my blade!". Why didn’t you just poo poo on his dick? Lurking Haro posted:If they have a knife, you can usually run away. Okay, so a man is running toward you with a knife. He’s faster than you, so if you try to run away, he’ll kill you. How do you inmobilise him? EDIT: I’m not trying to have a gotcha moment here. It’s just so strange to me that the burden of protecting the person who is trying to kill you falls on you, the victim. Ariong has a new favorite as of 17:07 on Oct 28, 2017 |
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Oct 28, 2017 17:02
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Ariong posted:Why didn’t you just poo poo on his dick? kung fu
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Oct 28, 2017 17:02
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Lurking Haro posted:If they have a knife, you can usually run away. Do you think knife fights are like in movies where they dramatically flick open their switchblade, square off in a combat stance, and then make a telegraphed lunge for you to counter? This is what it usually looks like when someone stabs you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAxVVOp4ATk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQWDUgixf6U&t=43s The knife comes out and the stabbing starts, and they might continue to chase you. You have maybe half a second to realize what's going on before you need to figure out a response.
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Oct 28, 2017 17:13
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Lurking Haro posted:How about immobilising them instead and call the cops? Cops are disproportionate to knives.
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Oct 28, 2017 17:13
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ilmucche posted:But how many pounds of force did you hit with? How many time could you hit Ivan Drago if he hit you once? That will be considered, both ways. If someone weaker than you punches you, hitting back even once may be too much. If it's Drago, you may be allowed to use a striking implement and still be legal. Up to the judge.
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Oct 28, 2017 17:19
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chitoryu12 posted:Do you think knife fights are like in movies where they dramatically flick open their switchblade, square off in a combat stance, and then make a telegraphed lunge for you to counter? in all honesty (while this discussion (especially itt) is always dumb and stupid) yeah having been stabbed once and having it be scary as poo poo and luckily not lethal id most likely shoot the second i see a knife. on the other hand doing a bit in the army knows id have to live with it so gently caress if i know whats right or not. its a dumb unresolvable arguement unless we get rid of guns and then we can just fight with folded hanzo steel like was intended.
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Oct 28, 2017 17:19
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Ariong posted:Why didn’t you just poo poo on his dick? Is there a train track I can switch? First, how do you know he's faster than you if you aren't already running? Second, are you on an open field with no cover? Doors are great at blocking knives. Third, if you really can't avoid him stabbing you, shoot him in the leg or arm. Basically, if you had reasonable options that could have avoided killing or wounding your assailant, you'll get charged, too, since it's not self-defense anymore. -e- chitoryu12 posted:Do you think knife fights are like in movies where they dramatically flick open their switchblade, square off in a combat stance, and then make a telegraphed lunge for you to counter? Unless you had training, it's unlikely you'll react before somebody shanks you. Even with a gun, unless you fire preemptively, which isn't self-defense again. Lurking Haro has a new favorite as of 17:26 on Oct 28, 2017 |
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Oct 28, 2017 17:19
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sneakyfrog posted:did you poo poo on his dick? Ariong posted:Why didn’t you just poo poo on his dick? I can handle pissing in front of someone else and that's about it. If he busted in and demanded I fill a small container three quarters of the way without emptying my bladder or touching the inside of the lid we'd have been fast friends.
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Oct 28, 2017 17:24
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Lurking Haro posted:Third, if you really can't avoid him stabbing you, shoot him in the leg or arm. Wow, what a loving bad idea. Hm, yes, pull off a trick shot to a narrow, fast-moving target while it's running at you with a knife, that is a cool and reasonable request to make of someone.
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Oct 28, 2017 17:26
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Rough Lobster posted:I can handle pissing in front of someone else and that's about it. If he busted in and demanded I fill a small container three quarters of the way without emptying my bladder or touching the inside of the lid we'd have been fast friends. did you die?
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Oct 28, 2017 17:26
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Byzantine posted:Wow, what a loving bad idea. Hm, yes, pull off a trick shot to a narrow, fast-moving target while it's running at you with a knife, that is a cool and reasonable request to make of someone. Finnish cops are trained to shoot for the legs, to wound. Can it really be too much to ask for the average citizen?
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Oct 28, 2017 17:28
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Lurking Haro posted:if you really can't avoid him stabbing you, shoot him in the leg or arm. This is the worst advice ever. If you're to the point of shooting someone in self defense you aim center mass. A moving target in a frantic life or death struggle is difficult to hit. You'll probably miss most of your shots anyway, but if you aim for the smallest, fastest moving part of the target you're guaranteed to miss them all. Personal Lucubrant has a new favorite as of 17:35 on Oct 28, 2017 |
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Oct 28, 2017 17:29
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Just a little while ago there was a terrorist knife man in Turku, Finland. The cops shot him in the leg and he lived to be interrogated.
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Oct 28, 2017 17:30
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doverhog posted:Finnish cops are trained to shoot for the legs, to wound. Can it really be too much to ask for the average citizen? A civil suit here in america would bankrupt you 
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Oct 28, 2017 17:31
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doverhog posted:Finnish cops are trained to shoot for the legs, to wound. Can it really be too much to ask for the average citizen? Yes???
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Oct 28, 2017 17:32
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Finns are Simo Hayha, and Americans are Yosemite Sam
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Oct 28, 2017 17:33
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Byzantine posted:Wow, what a loving bad idea. Hm, yes, pull off a trick shot to a narrow, fast-moving target while it's running at you with a knife, that is a cool and reasonable request to make of someone. That's why you run away if you can. They are also moving directly at you. I thought you are all gunslingers that can draw and shoot in under a second. Wait, is he running away? That makes aiming at center mass the better shot. Pearnicious posted:This is the worst advice ever. So you are already physically struggling with the attacker? No one's blaming you for shooting them center mass then, but why did you let it come to this? Lurking Haro has a new favorite as of 17:37 on Oct 28, 2017 |
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Oct 28, 2017 17:33
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doverhog posted:Finnish cops are trained to shoot for the legs, to wound. Can it really be too much to ask for the average citizen? Yes, it is. When people are under extreme stress triggering an adrenal response, fine motor movement goes out the window. More so if they have minimal training since they have almost no muscle memory. Most people, hell even most cops, are lucky to even hit someone at all in confrontations. Of course that leads to situations where misses can be dangerous depending on ammo in use. Most defense against home invasion like that is best served with a shotgun. Anyway, my takeaway is Euro laws are far more interested in protecting the perpetrators than the victims of violent crimes like home invasion. Lurking Haro posted:That's why you run away if you can. They are also moving directly at you. Now, I don't actually own any guns, but I don't have any issue with most Castle Doctrine laws in the US. Except Stand Your Ground like it's practiced in FL. Proteus Jones has a new favorite as of 17:43 on Oct 28, 2017 |
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Oct 28, 2017 17:40
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Proteus Jones posted:Yes, it is. When people are under extreme stress triggering an adrenal response, fine motor movement goes out the window. More so if they have minimal training since they have almost no muscle memory. Most people, hell even most cops, are lucky to even hit someone at all in confrontations. Of course that leads to situations where misses can be dangerous depending on ammo in use. Most defense against home invasion like that is best served with a shotgun. I mean, a more charitable take is that the laws put a much higher value on human life (even the life of the perpetrator) than the property being imperiled, since theoretically if dudes bust in through the front door with knives, you could leave out the back. You know, assuming that you live by yourself and that the rest of your family aren't like, asleep, or in the shower, and that you're standing watch in the main hall when this happens. Yeah I don't really agree with it either. If there's an attacker that appears to have the intent and means to end your life, I don't see why you can't use any means available to defend yourself until they either run away or are incapacitated.
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Oct 28, 2017 17:43
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