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CrazyLoon posted:In terms of Scotland, from talking to some folks, it honestly does sound like a good thing (though obviously it sounds like it'll take awhile now) - its residents very much so seem to want to remain in the EU, UK is being an absolute retard about that right now and straight up lied to them during their last referendum, so it is not inconceivable that they could work something out if the alternative to that is England bleeding them dry economically to fix their own lovely problems that Scots had nothing to do with (same as with my country in the 90s). What lie you're referring to I don't know exactly but Scotland hasn't been treated badly by the English. They certainly haven't been bled dry economically. Through the Barnett formula Scotland gets allocated a greater amount of public spending per head than England itself receives.
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Oct 29, 2017 00:07
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cloudchamber posted:What lie you're referring to I don't know exactly but Scotland hasn't been treated badly by the English. They certainly haven't been bled dry economically. Through the Barnett formula Scotland gets allocated a greater amount of public spending per head than England itself receives. The most superficial of all readings of the Scottish constitutional issue.
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Oct 29, 2017 00:18
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Your whole point here is predicated on the assumption that there is such a thing as a constant and singular national identity, which is expressed in its culture, and that what happened in the past is determinative of what happens in the future. So if a state is disfunctional, it will inevitably lead to a messy breakup. I don't believe that to be true necessarily. The whole idea of what a nation is and who belongs to it is continuously constructed and contested, and how disfunctional a state was in the past is a problem for the present to the extent that politicians decide to make it a problem. There actually were people who thought of themselves as Yugoslavs rather than as Serbs or Bosnians, and there was such an animal as homo sovieticus. People in India didn't make as much of the difference between Muslims and Hindus before the British operationalised those differences as a matter of divide-and-rule. And more relevantly, only around a quarter of the population of Catalonia considers themselves to be strictly only Catalan; the rest think of themselves as both Catalan and Spanish to various extents. So it's not that there are immutable differences and insuperable barriers to Catalonia's integration into Spain due to the crimes of the Franco regime. These supposed differences have been created and/or magnified in the past few decades as a deliberate political strategy, just like nationalism was used as a very successful political strategy in the late period of the Soviet Union and in Yugoslavia. And that strategy often leaves many dead in its wake. Dysfunctionally presents opportunity however. Take the Serbs, they were conditioned for years to reach the point where they would happily murder their former fellow countrymen. Where was the opposing voice within Yugoslavia before it collapsed, what conditions had eroded its national identity to the point where this was possible? Do you not wonder why literally everyone but the Serbs wanted out? Was there truly nothing that could have been done better when we look at things? Sure, the national myths were manufactured on the spot, but they were made real by legitimate grievances. The Soviet Republics are completely different and yet very similar. The Union had spent decades suppressing local cultures, religions and languages and had done so at gunpoint. They could have slowly and organically assimilated the local cultures but instead they used force. Not enough to destroy them mind you, just enough to push them into hiding. Nationalist sentiments did not conjure the discontent from thin air, it was already there, boiling under the surface and ready to explode. You're right in that there aren't immutable barriers for Catalonia integrating with Spain but recent history surely has done its best to poison the well. Pluskut Tukker posted:In any case, as far as I can tell other than Czechoslovakia which broke up by mutual consent there simply hasn't been a case of an orderly and peaceful secession in the whole wide world anywhere, so I would welcome it if any of the proponents of Catalan secessionism in this thread here could give me an example. It all depends on how tightly you want to define state. Scandinavia for instance has had a number of peaceful secessions over the last thousand years (and about a hundred more wars but details) so it's not like it has never happened throughout history. The several hundred year long collapse of the western Roman Empire also had a number if we're not going to get pedantic. Secessions tend to be bloody because in history the common response of a state when faced with secessionist movements has been to do exactly what Spain is doing right now. Arrest the ring-leaders, and if that doesn't work, start killing everyone. Nation-states in particular graduate more heavily towards murder on this topic because secessionist movements pretty much always bring up uncomfortable questions about the national myth which discursively cannot be addressed. If someone else's idea of a nation is made up, why isn't yours? Pluskut Tukker posted:The Europe of the Regions idea has never been anything but idle rhetoric and the member states have never lost control of the EU. This is one reason why all Commission presidents since Prodi have firmly rejected the idea that Catalonia could secede from Spain You're confusing my arguments here, the two are not related. The Union wants to see power at the nation-state level diluted, the formation of new nation-states from regions like Catalonia seceding would achieve the opposite of that. They want more powerful and autonomous regions, but within the current nation-state system. That's why they've spent decades encouraging member states to create super-regions while not so stealthily empowering regions economic muscles through EU projects. The goal is to divide and conquer to incrementally move closer to a federal system, not to create more member states. And it's not idle rhetoric, it pervades EU policy and soft-power at almost every level of the Commission and Parliament. However, it was pretty much gut-shot by the backlash following the poor handling of the Eurozone crisis which means that today member states are actively pushing back against most of these soft-power tools.
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Oct 29, 2017 00:25
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Coohoolin posted:The most superficial of all readings of the Scottish constitutional issue. I'm not trying to offer a view on that issue, I just think his comment that Scotland is being bled dry is not true.
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Oct 29, 2017 00:28
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cloudchamber posted:I'm not trying to offer a view on that issue, I just think his comment that Scotland is being bled dry is not true. Fair enough but only looking at the Barnett formula for an idea of the economic relationship between Scotland and the UK is maybe 1% of the story. I'd do an effort post but I'm in the pub.
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Oct 29, 2017 00:43
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MiddleOne posted:You're confusing my arguments here, the two are not related. The Union wants to see power at the nation-state level diluted, the formation of new nation-states from regions like Catalonia seceding would achieve the opposite of that. They want more powerful and autonomous regions, but within the current nation-state system. That's why they've spent decades encouraging member states to create super-regions while not so stealthily empowering regions economic muscles through EU projects. The goal is to divide and conquer to incrementally move closer to a federal system, not to create more member states. And it's a pretty terrible idea. "More powerful and autonomous regions" means less solidarity. Instead of having a national standard level of quality for things like public services, education, healthcare, etc. these things get foisted to the regions so poor regions get to suck more and more while rich regions get to become more prosperous. It weakens national cohesion, which encourages separatism and isolationism because FYGM. People do feel like their country is less powerful than power, and that it's because of Europe, and so they vote for far-right parties that want to Make Country Great Again. Instead of fostering the idea of a European supranationality, it just encourages devolution into bickering nation-states; except instead of 28 nations it'll be a hundred, or two hundred, or a thousand...
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Oct 29, 2017 01:42
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Ardennes posted:As far as "Catalonia has no right to complain because they aren't oppressed enough" is a cop out when the issue should be for the electorate of a region have a voice in their own affairs. I think the obvious solution would be compromise, but neither side is interested in that at this point and so we will see where this thing goes. I don't think anyone legitimately thinks that Catalonia 'doesn't have the right to complain because they are oppressed enough'. The issue is whether their reaction is proportional to the actions the Spanish government has taken. It isn't. Catalonia's relative wealth and high quality of life is important because a substantial number of people who are voting for independence believe their lives will be materially better. In that sense, going about getting independence in a really destructive and reckless way will leave people worse off, which is real bad, especially when you consider that a huge part of Catalonia doesn't condone these actions. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Oct 29, 2017 |
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Oct 29, 2017 01:46
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cloudchamber posted:What lie you're referring to I don't know exactly but Scotland hasn't been treated badly by the English. They certainly haven't been bled dry economically. Through the Barnett formula Scotland gets allocated a greater amount of public spending per head than England itself receives. Namely the lie, when during their previous indy referendum the votes for Scotland to stay in was very heavily based on the whole: "We don't want to leave the common market of the EU by leaving the UK, do we?" and then a few years laters the UK does a full 180 on that, which they frequently reminded Scotland of during the indy ref, and goes "gently caress IT, you're not our dad EU we're leaving!" with the Brexit stupidity. But if it's not doing that badly, then maybe it isn't worth it. Like I said, one has to live there and experience the day-to-day life of those it affects the most to be able to decide if it is. Over here, tho, the old Yugoslavian dinar currency was literally not worth poo poo at the end of the 80s and that was the flint that sparked the beginning of secession. The UK isn't quite there yet now, I suppose (I guess the internet makes people think only extreme thoughts, or I just typed it out poorly there). If it came to it, though, and places like Northern Ireland and Scotland footed the bill then yea...history would likely repeat itself in this regard and I wouldn't blame it one bit. Anyway...from what I'm reading ITT Catalonia is deffo not there yet. Which, combined with how poorly this whole declaration of independence was staged makes me think that, fascist remnants of Franco's Spain aside, it isn't worth it. But who knows...maybe there are a lot of stories of Catalonians being discriminated to the point they can't live proper lives or who the gently caress knows underneath all this talk. CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Oct 29, 2017 |
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Oct 29, 2017 01:49
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CrazyLoon posted:Namely the lie, when during their previous indy referendum the votes for Scotland to stay in was very heavily based on the whole: "We don't want to leave the common market of the EU by leaving the UK, do we?" and then a few years laters the UK does a full 180 on that, which they frequently reminded Scotland of during the indy ref, and goes "gently caress IT, you're not our dad EU we're leaving!" with the Brexit stupidity. Thing is that every problem caused by Brexit can also be seen as a warning for the problems that would be caused by a hypothetical Scottish secession. So while Brexit might cause europhiles to join the indy camp, the balance might not be a net gain for the independentists.
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Oct 29, 2017 02:01
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Pedro De Heredia posted:I don't think anyone legitimately thinks that Catalonia 'doesn't have the right to complain because they are oppressed enough'. The issue is whether their reaction is proportional to the actions the Spanish government has taken. It isn't. The ultimate issue is that this all came to ahead because the central government refused to established some type of common ground for negotiation which only upped the ante for both sides. Most of the population of Catalonia wanted at least some type of referendum. As for it being "really destructive" we will have to see what happens, that said if the central governments tries to "starve out" Catalonia, it isn't really going to look good from an optics perspective.
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Oct 29, 2017 03:07
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CrazyLoon posted:Namely the lie, when during their previous indy referendum the votes for Scotland to stay in was very heavily based on the whole: "We don't want to leave the common market of the EU by leaving the UK, do we?" and then a few years laters the UK does a full 180 on that, which they frequently reminded Scotland of during the indy ref, and goes "gently caress IT, you're not our dad EU we're leaving!" with the Brexit stupidity. Can you point out the ‘lie’ here? Coohoolin posted:Fair enough but only looking at the Barnett formula for an idea of the economic relationship between Scotland and the UK is maybe 1% of the story. I'd do an effort post but I'm in the pub. This’ll be entertaining.
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Oct 29, 2017 08:18
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Sunday update -The major in charge of the mossos has stepped down following the sacking order from Madrid- -Madrid still pays the public servants of catalunya- -After the whole regional government was sacked the mossos stopped giving them protection as they are no longer public servants- -Independence resolution was nos actually passed as it has not been inscribed in the generalitat books- -The spanish flag still flows atop the palau sant jaume - -New info came about how the catalonian gov was starting to feel the pressure in the last days- So far Mossos seem to respect the 155 order. On the other hand CUP , ANC and Omnium are preparing to start a paralel parlament and to keep the process of national construction. hump day bitches! fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Oct 29, 2017 |
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Oct 29, 2017 09:03
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Ardennes posted:The ultimate issue is that this all came to ahead because the central government refused to established some type of common ground for negotiation which only upped the ante for both sides. Most of the population of Catalonia wanted at least some type of referendum. We don't really have to wait and see too much to know it's destructive and reckless. We know many of the reasons why already. It's destructive for Catalan society because there's still a very large percentage of Catalans who want to remain part of Spain and are unlikely to appreciate a one-sided breakup of Catalonia from Spain, which is a pretty serious social problem that would take a long time to properly resolve. It's also destructive diplomatically, because Spain and the important EU countries all told Catalonia 'don't do this', which means any future relations with Catalonia start very much on the wrong foot. This is all important because the current Catalan independence project has never been independence at all costs. Their public rhetoric and the transition law the Catalans passed imply a good relationship with Spain and quick access to the EU, which all of these actions make extremely unlikely if not completely impossible. When the Scottish referendum was happening, the criticism towards the Leave campaign was 'you're being extremely rosy about easy access to the EU and whatnot'. This is that, plus all the illegality associated with it. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Oct 29, 2017 |
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Oct 29, 2017 09:09
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hump day bitches! posted:Sunday update Sounds like the kinds of things an independent country with no regard for the directions or laws from Madrid would do. Also yesterday’s statement by the Catalonian president about “peaceful resistance” was apparently recorded at a secret location. poty fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Oct 29, 2017 |
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Oct 29, 2017 09:20
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What would "common ground for negotiations" even be? The Catalan independence parties argue that they can leave Spain and stay part of the EU - this is the "cake and eat it" approach followed by populists everywhere, from the Brexit crowd (get out of the EU but stay in the single market) to Greece (get out of the bailouts/debt but stay in the Euro). They first have to accept the fact that independence is no alternative, stop using it as a threat and only then can negotiations start. Next is the issue that Catalonia, except for the fact that they have to contribute to the well-being of less prosperous regions in Spain, have already far-reaching autonomy and granting them financial autonomy is obviously very unpopular in all other parts of Spain. Imagine Texas or London asking their respective country to keep all the money they are making to themselves, because ~regional nationalism~.
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Oct 29, 2017 09:27
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GaussianCopula posted:Imagine Texas or London asking their respective country to keep all the money they are making to themselves, because ~regional nationalism~.
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Oct 29, 2017 09:32
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poty posted:Sounds like the kinds of things an independent country with no regard for the directions or laws from Madrid would do. That secret location must be something new because the dude was in Girona with his wife and children and having dinners in restaurants on saturday.That's were he recorded the message. Also ERC and PdCAT representatives in Madrid are not stepping down from their seats in the spanish parliament.
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Oct 29, 2017 09:33
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hump day bitches! posted:That secret location must be something new because the dude was in Girona with his wife and children and having dinners in restaurants on saturday.That's were he recorded the message. I can't find any articles about it, I heard it yesterday from the Spain correspondent of the Swiss public TV
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Oct 29, 2017 09:44
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poty posted:I can't find any articles about it, I heard it yesterday from the Spain correspondent of the Swiss public TV http://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/puigdemont-restaurante-girona_206952_102.html From nacional of catalonia but yeah.Enjoying a nice outing after these horrible weeks. Also LOL the jail partner of Jordi Sanchez has demanded a new roommate or a change of cells on the grounds of he's unbearable, he only speaks about independence and goes on and on all the time about it and that he's kind of weird. hump day bitches! fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Oct 29, 2017 |
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Oct 29, 2017 09:54
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Pissflaps posted:Can you point out the ‘lie’ here? UK: "Stay with us, Scotland, if you want to stay in EU." Scotland: "K." UK few years later: "We're leaving EU!"
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Oct 29, 2017 10:29
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CrazyLoon posted:UK: "Stay with us, Scotland, if you want to stay in EU." That’s not a lie. Anybody who argued that Scottish independence would require Scotland to re-join the EU was being honest and accurate. The EU’s response to Catalonian independence verified what was said at the time of the Scottish referendum (if you want an EU lie, consider separatists who insisted that Scotland would be an ‘automatic’ member enjoying the same rebate and opt-outs that the UK enjoys). Sure it would be disappointing for anybody who voted No in 2014 solely on that issue and Remain in 2016, but it’s more complicated than that. Around a third of No voters also voted to leave the EU. Scottish independence wouldn’t ‘fix’ for Scotland the problems Brexit could bring to the UK: it would compound them. With support for independence declining and the SNP slumping dramatically at the last election, it seems most Scots agree.
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Oct 29, 2017 10:49
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CrazyLoon posted:UK: "Stay with us, Scotland, if you want to stay in EU." Most of the politicians who were prominent in the campaign to keep Scotland in the UK - like Cameron, Miliband, and Brown - supported Remain in the EU referendum two years later. There are probably people you can criticise for hypocrisy over what's ended up happening, but I don't think there are that many people who made inverse arguments about the EU in the two referendum campaigns.
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Oct 29, 2017 11:02
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MiddleOne posted:Dysfunctionally presents opportunity however. Take the Serbs, they were conditioned for years to reach the point where they would happily murder their former fellow countrymen. Where was the opposing voice within Yugoslavia before it collapsed, In the prime minister's office. MiddleOne posted:what conditions had eroded its national identity to the point where this was possible? Do you not wonder why literally everyone but the Serbs wanted out? Was there truly nothing that could have been done better when we look at things? Sure, the national myths were manufactured on the spot, but they were made real by legitimate grievances. You are conflating the people in power in the component states of Yugoslavia with 'everyone'. Perhaps a majority wanted out (understandable, given the actions of Milosevic), perhaps the breakup was inevitable. But in Yugoslavia as in Catalonia, there were and are people with mixed identities, or multiple ones, and a wide spectrum of opinions about what should happen. So I want to push back against this idea of "Catalonia's legitimate grievances against Spain" , because using phrases like that implicitly means that you're debating the argument on the terms of the nationalists. However, I am still not saying that all the places I listed as examples shouldn't have broken up. My overall point is really that bad things happen when states break up, particularly if politicans go around inflaming nationalist tensions. This is not just about violence though. States are also legal and economic systems of relationships that create wealth and security for the population. Break up states and you break up a portion of those economic relationships, you create insecurity for minority populations about whether their rights will be respected, you almost inevitably creat conflict about borders and about who gets to own what assets. For all of these reasons, the concept of an orderly and peaceful secession in this day and age is a fantasy, now more than ever since the degree of complexity in society is so much bigger than it used to be. MiddleOne posted:You're confusing my arguments here, the two are not related. The Union wants to see power at the nation-state level diluted, the formation of new nation-states from regions like Catalonia seceding would achieve the opposite of that. They want more powerful and autonomous regions, but within the current nation-state system. That's why they've spent decades encouraging member states to create super-regions while not so stealthily empowering regions economic muscles through EU projects. The goal is to divide and conquer to incrementally move closer to a federal system, not to create more member states. This view is really outdated and ascribes powers to the Commission and the Parliament which they don't have. But in actual fact until Juncker the Commission President was always chosen by the heads of government of the member states, and after the Delors Commission turned out too powerful and impactful the member state leaders always chose someone of their own to make sure the Commission didn't become too ambitious; people like Prodi, Barroso, and Santer. The member states write the treaties, and so they decide which competences Commission and Parliament will be allowed to have. The member states decide on the budget, and they decide how much money is available for regional policy. They also keep a close check on how the Commission acts through the comitology system. So while some member states set up regional authorities so as to qualify for the structural- and cohesion funds, nothing about that is likely to have much of an effect on moving towards a federal system; neofunctionalism is still very much dead, any further move towards more federalism was killed by the French and Dutch referendums on the European Constitution, and regional policy in the EU now functions mostly as a way to offer side payments as a way to sweeten the EU membership deal. Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Oct 29, 2017 |
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Oct 29, 2017 11:30
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Pedro De Heredia posted:When the Scottish referendum was happening, the criticism towards the Leave campaign was 'you're being extremely rosy about easy access to the EU and whatnot'. This is that, plus all the illegality associated with it. Just for the sake of clarity, Leave/Remain are the terms used for the Brexit referendum. The Scottish independence referendum was down Yes/No lines.
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Oct 29, 2017 14:00
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CrazyLoon posted:UK: "Stay with us, Scotland, if you want to stay in EU." I mean. There's a veritable iceberg of pre referendum promises that have been gone entirely back on, like the promises of ships being built on the Clyde, further devolved powers, or help in renewable funding. The EU one is just the most blatant of it.
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Oct 29, 2017 14:01
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Coohoolin posted:I mean. There's a veritable iceberg of pre referendum promises that have been gone entirely back on, like the promises of ships being built on the Clyde, further devolved powers, or help in renewable funding. The EU one is just the most blatant of it. None of this is true. The Clyde is getting Royal Navy ship orders, the Scottish Parliament has received further devolved powers, renewable funding is a new one you’ve just been told about. Pissflaps fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Oct 29, 2017 |
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Oct 29, 2017 14:22
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Pissflaps posted:That’s not a lie. etc etc etc straying away from the simple loving point I was trying to make, because you have to somehow win the argument... They said they'd do something (stay in the EU market) by remaining, then UK did something utterly contrary to that (Brexit) that ejected them out of it. That's not a lie? Cripes I don't feel like arguing semantics on top of every other drat thing ITT...
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Oct 29, 2017 14:25
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I'd say it's more straight up incompetence, not that makes it much better than lying.
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Oct 29, 2017 14:32
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CrazyLoon posted:They said they'd do something (stay in the EU market) by remaining, then UK did something utterly contrary to that (Brexit) that ejected them out of it. That's not a lie? Cripes I don't feel like arguing semantics on top of every other drat thing ITT... No it’s not a lie. Your mistake is comparing an argument made by a campaign group with the democratic choice of a country made several years later.
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Oct 29, 2017 14:36
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CrazyLoon posted:They said they'd do something (stay in the EU market) by remaining, then UK did something utterly contrary to that (Brexit) that ejected them out of it. That's not a lie? Cripes I don't feel like arguing semantics on top of every other drat thing ITT...
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Oct 29, 2017 14:40
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It’s a curious aspect of the Scottish independence campaign that nobody ever has a difference of opinion, instead somebody is always, always ‘lying’.
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Oct 29, 2017 14:44
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Pissflaps posted:It’s a curious aspect of the Scottish independence campaign that nobody ever has a difference of opinion, instead somebody is always, always ‘lying’.
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Oct 29, 2017 14:58
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Well, it is perfidious Albion we're talking about.
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Oct 29, 2017 15:00
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jesus loving christ keep your loving mouth shut you dickhead (francken, not anyone in this thread). http://www.levif.be/actualite/belgi...mal-746307.html quote:Carles Puigdemont, le président destitué de la région de Catalogne, pourrait demander asile à la Belgique, a répondu le secrétaire d'Etat à l'Asile et à la Migration Theo Francken (N-VA) à une question posée par VTM Nieuws. Ce qui a aussitôt suscité la colère du parti conservateur au pouvoir en Espagne.
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Oct 29, 2017 16:52
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Oui, je suis une clé. E: They're all a bunch of lame cowards, and no one but the innocent are going to get hurt by this.
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Oct 29, 2017 17:10
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I don't think everyone in the thread can read French. Anyway, pissing off the PP is alright in my book.
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Oct 29, 2017 18:20
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CrazyLoon posted:They said they'd do something (stay in the EU market) by remaining, then UK did something utterly contrary to that (Brexit) that ejected them out of it. That's not a lie? Cripes I don't feel like arguing semantics on top of every other drat thing ITT... The independence campaign made a lot of noise about Scotland being able to live off its oil revenues. After the referendum, the price of oil tanked massively. Was the independence campaign lying about oil?
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Oct 29, 2017 19:31
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Phlegmish posted:I don't think everyone in the thread can read French. Our glorious minister in charge of immigration Theo Francken, who denied immigration visas to Syrian people in the past, said that Puigdemont could request asylum in Belgium if he faces prosecution in Spain.
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Oct 29, 2017 19:44
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I think it's a cool and good gesture, but it's also just that: a gesture. They're throwing a few bones to a nationalist base that is coming dangerously close to seeing them as yet another Belgian regime party. Nothing will come of it. e: actually, looking at De Standaard, he said it was legally possible for Catalans to request asylum in Belgium, which is just a factual statement. Weak. Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Oct 29, 2017 |
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Oct 29, 2017 19:48
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Phlegmish posted:I don't think everyone in the thread can read French. I mean it's just poor Latin, just like all Romance languages.
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Oct 29, 2017 20:37
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