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Mazz posted:Since I have to explain it, sure hyperlanes gives terrain or whatever but it also puts you way more at the mercy of map generation. This is true and you should rehost if you or any other player gets hyperlane hosed.
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Oct 29, 2017 21:49
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Nuclearmonkee posted:This is true and you should rehost if you or any other player gets hyperlane hosed. Playing with 4-6 other people and waiting 15 years to make sure nobody gets hosed like this before restarting isn't going to fly for long. If someone choose hyperlanes and gets hosed, that's on them. If everyone is forced into hyperlanes and 1-2 gets hosed every time, that's just lovely design. That's why I'm saying to leave the choice to the player.
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Oct 29, 2017 21:56
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Nevets posted:You know, if we weren't playing hyperlanes only in the 30's the Nazis wouldn't have cared so much about the Danzig corridor, and then we'd never have gotten the HoI games. Yeah, inventing airports ("wormholes") really took all the fun out of war.
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Oct 29, 2017 21:58
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Main Paineframe posted:No, I said the game is better with hyperlanes because it opens up a wider array of strategic options and choices for the player. It's certainly playable with all FTL types available, but then it's a lot harder to do fun moves like strategically boxing in a rival power by taking a chokepoint they'd need to move through, or tactically limiting them by heavily fortifying a border chokepoint. The only real downside to hyperlanes is that the AI doesn't seen to notice or take advantage of any of the map's "terrain." It doesn't fortify border systems, it doesn't seem to notice or care if you take a system with a strategic chokepoint that doesn't have a colony on it (and even then will only invade because the colony is there), and doesn't seem to expand with any idea of denying areas of the map for later expansion. In fact, the AI doesn't seem to notice defensive platforms at all. Typically my defenses will rack up dozens of enemy ship kills as they dribble individual ships and transports through the system only to be caught and killed by the fortresses. I'm definitely in favor of anything that gets rid of the sameness of systems and adds strategic depth. But hopefully the dev team upgrades the AI to actually use the map features to its advantage.
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Oct 29, 2017 22:00
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Mazz posted:Playing with 4-6 other people and waiting 15 years to make sure nobody gets hosed like this before restarting isn't going to fly for long. If someone choose hyperlanes and gets hosed, that's on them. If everyone is forced into hyperlanes and 1-2 gets hosed every time, that's just lovely design. That's why I'm saying to leave the choice to the player.  Alternatively, what actually happens. I have literally never had a restart due to being screwed by hyperlanes in multiplayer and I've only had it happen one time since they redid the distribution of hostile things on the map.But yes, there should remain the option for all FTL methods and I doubt they would rip out that feature for no reason.
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Oct 29, 2017 22:04
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Maybe that's the strategic depth, the AI doesn't make use of this stuff well. 
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Oct 29, 2017 22:08
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After learning the game I've only ever played Wormholes and if Stellaris forces me into hyperlanes only I'll probably just uninstall it because that's the only way I like playing the game. These are my opinions about video games I hope you enjoy them.
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Oct 29, 2017 22:17
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Nessus posted:Maybe that's the strategic depth, the AI doesn't make use of this stuff well. Actually shouldn't be too complex to run some minimum spanning tree algorithm and help the AI figure out what systems it controls are defensively significant, if they choose to make it pay attention to that kind of thing. Pathfinding is already in the game so I doubt it would be hard for them.
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Oct 29, 2017 22:18
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I like wormholes sometimes and I hope the new starports just have a new wormhole building and not a separate station. One thing that kinda blows about wormholes is you can get congested if you have a lot of through traffic. If you build more than one station does it actually speed up the movement of multiple fleets?
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Oct 29, 2017 22:20
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These are a lot of words about something that might be completely irrelevant on Thursday. Is this a "speak now, or forever hold your peace" thing?
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Oct 29, 2017 22:21
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Freudian posted:These are a lot of words about something that might be completely irrelevant on Thursday. Is this a "speak now, or forever hold your peace" thing? Space spergs gonna sperg
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Oct 29, 2017 22:24
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Freudian posted:These are a lot of words about something that might be completely irrelevant on Thursday. Is this a "speak now, or forever hold your peace" thing?
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Oct 29, 2017 22:25
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Nessus posted:This, too, is the nature of goons.
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Oct 29, 2017 22:29
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SniperWoreConverse posted:I like wormholes sometimes and I hope the new starports just have a new wormhole building and not a separate station. This is why Wormholes are the only mechanically interesting mode of FTL, actually. A single generator can only do travel for one fleet at a time, so you have to build a robust network to handle travel needs, and be careful about the traffic you send through high-volume areas, consolidating multiple fleets and then splitting them later etc. Multiple stations and redundancies are a necessity for wars of expansion.
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Oct 29, 2017 22:29
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Man trying to catch a jump drive fleet with hyperlane fleets is a pain in the rear end.
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Oct 29, 2017 22:33
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New Butt Order posted:This is why Wormholes are the only mechanically interesting mode of FTL, actually. A single generator can only do travel for one fleet at a time, so you have to build a robust network to handle travel needs, and be careful about the traffic you send through high-volume areas, consolidating multiple fleets and then splitting them later etc. Multiple stations and redundancies are a necessity for wars of expansion. This is true but is actually super tedious (imho) which is why I stopped playing wormholes.
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Oct 29, 2017 22:34
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GunnerJ posted:This is true but is actually super tedious (imho) which is why I stopped playing wormholes. Luckily Stellaris lets you choose your own FTL type at game start. Let's hope it stays that way in spite of the lead's bad ideas.
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Oct 29, 2017 22:54
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give me individualist vs collectivist chat over this loving garbage any day
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Oct 29, 2017 22:58
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The notion, as some have suggested, that any option other than hyperlanes-only reduces strategic depth is baffling to me. I picture the Stellaris galaxy as an ocean with a bunch of islands (systems) connected by bridges. Each race independently develops either boats (warp), cars (hyperlanes), or airports/airplanes (wormholes) to move between the islands to conduct their affairs. Each form of travel has it's own pros and cons, both terms of how to employ them and defend your empire against each. One of the stated reasons that hyperlanes-only is supposed to add strategic depth is to give meaning to terrain because then you can identify chokepoints, fortify them, and deny the enemy access to your core systems. Not to mention that hyperlanes-only gives an additional advantage in that the AI currently does not similarly fortify and interdict the terrain. This seems like pretty shallow gameplay to me. Having to consider and defend against the possibility of an enemy claiming territory you want because they have a more direct route to it by sea than you do by land adds more strategic depth than it does remove it. Having to consider whether a neighbor can leverage their airports to drop their fleet on top of your primary energy planet and take that into account when colonizing/specializing it adds strategic depth, not adds to it. Forcing hyperlanes-only (or any "*-only") solution on all players would be a big step back similar to making kinetic weapons-only a big step back in the decision-making associated with fleet composition and outfitting.
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Oct 29, 2017 23:02
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New Butt Order posted:Luckily Stellaris lets you choose your own FTL type at game start. Let's hope it stays that way in spite of the lead's bad ideas. Uh, not really my point but OK.
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Oct 29, 2017 23:06
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toasterwarrior posted:give me individualist vs collectivist chat over this loving garbage any day
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Oct 29, 2017 23:06
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Aethernet posted:Have you considered.... that you might be wrong??!?!? I had considered the possibility, but ultimately discarded it because what kind of dumb moron would want to play this game without Jump Drive?
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Oct 29, 2017 23:08
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toasterwarrior posted:give me individualist vs collectivist chat over this loving garbage any day 
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Oct 29, 2017 23:12
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Can't wait until we finish research on nerve stapling and apply it to this thread
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Oct 29, 2017 23:26
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gowb posted:Can't wait until we finish research on nerve stapling and apply it to this thread Orbital mind control lasers when?
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Oct 29, 2017 23:31
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Artificer posted:Man trying to catch a jump drive fleet with hyperlane fleets is a pain in the rear end. It's also a pain in the rear end the other way around. A high-level hyperlane drive jumps fast enough that you actually have to target a jump or two ahead of them with a jump drive - the hyperlane cooldown plus warmup is shorter than the jump drive's warmup.
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Oct 29, 2017 23:33
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Also for some reason I can colonize even though thralldom on the tool tip says I can't. Maybe mod related?
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Oct 29, 2017 23:37
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Shugojin posted:Also for some reason I can colonize even though thralldom on the tool tip says I can't. Maybe mod related? You can’t colonize outside your own borders. That isn’t really much of a restriction.
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Oct 29, 2017 23:40
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You are just looking at the narrow field of view. You aren't looking at the revamp of FTL based on what is coming. You are looking at FTL based on what we have now. The problem is that if Warp and Wormhole are taken away, a day 1 mod will be one that puts them back into the game as starting techs, and there would be outcry for people who enjoy Wormhole stations and that entire gameplay element. While some may go "HYPERLANE ONLY I CAN TERRAIN" that won't work because of what we have NOW. If the game was developed with just Hyperlane and the other types were added, that would be different. Seeing 3 different types of FTL that you can choose to play as at the beginning sets this game aside from all the other 4X games that use hyperlanes. Which right now the only "competition" is Endless Space 2 (it's a good game). What I would want to see for a revamp is when you choose Hyperlane only, then that is the only one that can roll. Other civilizations can't randomly get warp or worm holes. Also getting rid of Warp will break the Star Trek: New Horizons mod. Not sure about the Star Wars mod, haven't tried that one.
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Oct 29, 2017 23:49
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toasterwarrior posted:give me individualist vs collectivist chat over this loving garbage any day don't even joke about this
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Oct 29, 2017 23:59
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IAmTheRad posted:What I would want to see for a revamp is when you choose Hyperlane only, then that is the only one that can roll. Other civilizations can't randomly get warp or worm holes Isn't that how it works now?
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Oct 30, 2017 00:07
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gowb posted:Isn't that how it works now? In map settings yes. I assumed he meant when you pick a starting race, then the game automatically becomes *-only and the map settings option goes away.
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Oct 30, 2017 00:10
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Golli posted:In map settings yes. I mean why tho? What's the diff ?
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Oct 30, 2017 00:11
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Hyperlanes only only affects regular empires. Fallen empites, crises, etc. still use whatever they normally would.
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Oct 30, 2017 00:14
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turn off the TV posted:Hyperlanes only only affects regular empires. Fallen empites, crises, etc. still use whatever they normally would. OH! I didn't know that. What do fallen empires use?
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Oct 30, 2017 00:15
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gowb posted:OH! I didn't know that. What do fallen empires use? Warp drives.
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Oct 30, 2017 00:22
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gowb posted:OH! I didn't know that. What do fallen empires use? Jump drives or Psi Jump Drives. The force-everything-to-one-FTL-type mode doesn't remove jump drives, so they're still researchable and everything that gets them naturally still uses them. Personally, my opinion on that is mixed - currently, the strengths and weaknesses of the various FTL types don't really scale that well to the late-game when you're waging war on a galactic scale.
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Oct 30, 2017 00:23
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hobbesmaster posted:You can’t colonize outside your own borders. Ahhh, I see. Neat.
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Oct 30, 2017 00:28
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New Butt Order posted:This is why Wormholes are the only mechanically interesting mode of FTL, actually. A single generator can only do travel for one fleet at a time, so you have to build a robust network to handle travel needs, and be careful about the traffic you send through high-volume areas, consolidating multiple fleets and then splitting them later etc. Multiple stations and redundancies are a necessity for wars of expansion. another thing that kinda sucks is larger fleets take longer to worm, they have to keep digging the hole until it's big enough to squeeze everyone through. So I dunno if anyone's done the math, but I kinda feel like there's a difference in transit time So here's a situation: start off on day one, split my corvettes into 3 fleets, and send them to 6 systems. Would this be faster than keeping the one fleet and having them look at each system in sequence? You have one station that has to make 9 tiny wormholes (12 if you bring them back home), or one station that has to make 11 larger wormholes (12 if you bring them back home). I'm almost tempted to start a new game and then test this from an initial save.
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Oct 30, 2017 00:39
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The one thing I'd change about Wormholes is to make the Wormhole station more of "a thing". Forcing me to build it at the edge of the system is kind of a drag. At 75 minerals a piece, and made out of cardboard and tissue paper, it's basically just an annoyance that I have to build multiple copies of to get a decent throughput for my fleets. I think it should be integrated as part of a starbase and somewhat expensive, but have, like, twice the range that it has to start with. Make wormhole stations something to give due consideration to! It would also leave Wormhole civs vulnerable to attacks -- rather than now, where they can pretty much just build a new one as soon as your fleet leaves.
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Oct 30, 2017 00:41
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